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Author Topic: Birdfeeder/government intervention  (Read 3270 times)
Robo
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« on: June 08, 2007, 08:09:11 AM »

An interesting analogy I came across.


I bought a bird feeder. I hung it on my back porch and filled it with seed. Within a week we had hundreds of birds taking advantage of the continuous flow of free and easily accessible food. But then the birds started building nests in the boards of the patio, above the table, and next to the barbecue. Then came the poop. It was everywhere: on the patio tile, the chairs, the table...everywhere. Then some of the birds turned mean: They would dive bomb me and try to peck me even though I had fed them out of my own pocket. And others birds were boisterous and loud: They sat on the feeder and squawked and screamed at all hours of the day and night and demanded that I fill it when it got low on food.
After a while, I couldn't even sit on my own back porch anymore. I took down the bird feeder and in three days the birds were gone. I cleaned up their mess and took down the many nests they had built all over the patio.
Soon, the back yard was like it used to be...quiet, serene and no one demanding their rights to a free meal.
Now lets see...our government gives out free food, subsidized housing, free medical care, free education and allows anyone born here to be a automatic citizen. Then the illegal's came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families: you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor: your child's 2nd grade class is behind other schools because over half the class doesn't speak English: Corn Flakes now come in a bilingual box; I have to press "one" to hear my bank talk to me in English, and people waving flags other than "Old Glory" are squawking and screaming in the streets, demanding more rights and free liberties. Maybe it's time for the government to take down the bird feeder.
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2007, 09:13:52 AM »

Robo, unbelievable!!!!  Birds are awfully messy and so this does carry on to other things that you were talking about.  What on earth eh!!!  Great day, great life.  Cindi
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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2007, 11:23:25 AM »

there ya go.   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2007, 11:39:13 AM »

first of all. you did the mistake, the same as goverments are making. you provided urgent things even when there was no urge for particualr thing.
bird feeders are supposed to be filled durign winter, when food is scarce. so should do the goverment, our countries are supposed to take care of our problems and not the problems people bring into our countries just so they'd be solved.

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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2007, 07:55:30 PM »

According to some congresswoman I caught briefly on the news the other night, these 'birds' are paying taxes and the 'vast' majority of home owners support measures to allow the birds to remain.  I nearly threw my book at the TV when she said they were paying taxes.
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2007, 11:39:39 PM »

I posted this very same thing when i got it as a email, needless to say they did not like the analogy. If the shoe fits ?
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2007, 12:41:50 AM »

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Then the illegal's came by the tens of thousands. Suddenly our taxes went up to pay for free services; small apartments are housing 5 families: you have to wait 6 hours to be seen by an emergency room doctor:

Is your country declining?

Better said. Are US declining?
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2007, 04:41:23 AM »

i would say...no it's not declining, because the state in which rich countryes are is different...
it's only a matter of time, before the whole Europe and USA just collapse.
but of course, we have to import workers, we have a workforce shortage (with what? 10% unimployed???)
but..when the worker comes...he brings his family, his cousins etcetc...

it has already began (remember France, 2 years ago??) so many immigrants knowing about their rights, but do not know THEIR obligations even exist...just wait, there won't be a steady decline, a simple collapse.
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2007, 10:37:56 AM »

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Is your country declining?

Better said. Are US declining?

the economy is booming and unemployment is low.  it is a measure of our success that we need imported workers....however, there is a big difference between importing workers and opening the borders to free flow.  that's what we have now.

on any given night, 100s of people come across our southern border.  many come to work, but what about others?  not all are from Mexico.  Mexico caught some Arabs going through the country on the way to the US.  how many others have they missed?  we know we have a rather large criminal element that comes and goes across the southern border.

Canada has a loose immigration policy.  that works for them so far, but it puts us in danger if we do not have more security on the northern border.  we have already had bad guys try to come in that way.  how many have we missed?

i am all for immigration.  if not for immigration, i'd probably be digging tubers out of the field with a forked stick trying not to starve.  my family has been here for less the 100 years. i am 3rd generation American. immigration must be a legal process so that those who would not become Americans, and would either do our country harm or be a burden on the country, are turned away.

 i am also all for security.  if a country is not secure, it is not going to last.  whatever measures we take on the borders must be backed with deadly force.  if not, we have wasted money and given ourselves a false sense of security.  so far, i do not see that we have the stomach for that.  it will take more attackers, and they will come, before we wake up to the deadly problem.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 04:47:15 PM »

Well, I wrote "Are US declining?" because it is a reflection.
US is USA, of course, but are US too, the occidental civilization, the "Christianitas". And Europe is being invaded too by non occidentals. In my mind, probably retrograde, arabs are not civilized, not in my way.

Is a problem of collapse as says Mici? Well France, UK and Germany are not collapsed, and they have millions of arabs.
Spain is not collapsed (it is not the Glory, but nearly), and we have 6 million of inmigrants.
What countries are collapsed? the countries that are sending inmigrants. Why? Thats another matter.

Spain was collapsed from 1945 to 1955. The embargo or blockade was terrible. Starvation so severe that any generations were deformed. Any millions of Spanish emigrated to Hispanoamerica, France and Germany.
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 05:00:27 PM »

we are all importing workers because we are not breeding.  importing workers is one thing.  immigration is another.  i observe that as the EU countries allow more immigration from other countries, the laws and traditions of those countries are changing.  immigrants vote. 

Canada had an area that wanted sharia law to supersede the laws of Canada.  France is having riots over employment, etc.  England and Spain have had terrorism problems, and England is having laws and traditions challenged.  the Dutch had riots over cartoons.  we have been fortunate here in that most of our immigrants have assimilated into our culture, but now we have people marching through the streets with Mexican flags.

come and work.  come and stay.  put the flag of your mother country into your ceder chest, and proudly fly the American flag in front of your house.  if you can not do that, do not come.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 06:59:31 PM »

i did not say EU has collapsed, but it is due to.

kathy has said most of it, there is a BIG BIG BIG difference between EU and the US and A grin.

USA were founded as a melting pot, everyones culture is welcome and will be altered, that's a fact.
now europe...europe nations cultures have been here for centuries, withstanding all sorts off troubles and after thousand of years of wars, we'll just chuck it away? because...abejaruco, i don't know how you have it in Spain but....European cultures are just fading away, even the "civilization" level is decreasing, like you said it. now...we can all just sit and watch, and all have a Kebab or...we can slowly talk our goverments into shuting the borders and finally starting to put in act all those "social" laws, so...a lawyer who can't get a job..gets one, even though not in his rank.

with this kind of immigration policy going on...there'll be civil wars throuout the EU and i'm afraid abejaruco, that you and me-as the natives, will not stand a very good chance.



we aren't breeding, that's actually good, for once in humanitys history, we are finally self-sufficient and we do not demand more. it actually doesn't get any better than this. well, we are in decline but...slowly it would get into balance, i'm sure of that.


oh and just another thought. they say gipsys are endangered nation (well, they're not actually a nation). the statistics say otherwise. since the WW2 their # in Europe has multiplied by 7!!!! and i know they aren't any better in other countryes, all they do is steal, commit crime, steal, and drain states budgets, oh i almost forgot, and they breed, better than rabbits.
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« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 07:32:37 PM »

i agree with most of what you said except this part. 
Quote
we aren't breeding, that's actually good, for once in humanitys history, we are finally self-sufficient and we do not demand more. it actually doesn't get any better than this. well, we are in decline but...slowly it would get into balance, i'm sure of that.

because we are not breeding a workforce, we are forced to import one.  we import from 3rd world countries.  3rd world countries do not have a middle class so we import the poor and uneducated.  they become a drain on our society and if they stay, they vote.  if you have a large portion of your society that is needy, they vote in programs that give them more free stuff.  they also vote in laws that favor their way of life.

in addition, we do not have enough young workers to support the promises we have made to those who retire.  depending on where you live, it can take as many as 10 workers to support each retiree.  that is unsustainable without immigration.  pretty soon, you have more immigrants that do not assimilate, and your society has changed forever.

if you want to see how a society declines, watch japan.  they are not breeding.  they are not encouraging immigration.  they are a society in decline and they know it.  they are the 1st of the 1st world countries that actually have a declining population.  it will be interesting to see how they solve this problem....if they can.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2007, 03:15:58 AM »

i don't believe into this "not enough workforce" story. we import workers from all over EU, and i guess you know mostly from which countryes. correct me if i'm wrong but, how can we be in workforce shortage with i think around 10% unemployed?!?!? yes, i know, it's hard for some ingeneer to take the shovel in his hands but...if you are capable of working and you feel overcompotent, so be it, we cut your support. it's easyer to put a doctor on some workers position, than to put a worker to work as a doctor.

hey, i think it's still better to be in decline for a decade or two, and them get back up, instead of being wiped out, litteraly and peacefully.
with this kind of policy, by the year 2050 there'll be only 50% of Slovenes in Slovenia, and the culture is already being altered BADLY, so by the year 2050, there'll be just another Yugo-province, instead of Slovenia
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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2007, 08:11:13 AM »

I don't believe the 'not enough workforce' stuff, either.  It's employers that want to pay the lowest they can, not the availability of workers.  Pay an American $15 an hour to frame, or pay an illegal $7.00.  Which one would the employer choose, especially since there are few enforced penalties?  Oh, yea, they have a big raid once in awhile that makes the news and seems to imply that they're going after illegals and the businesses that hire them.  But it's BS.  I am surrounded by companies who hire illegals.  I know many native born Americans who can't get jobs in the fields they've always worked in (I'm talking laborer types, blue collars, carpenters, landscapers, etc).  Don't tell me there's not enough workers, I know differently.
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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2007, 10:44:41 AM »

And even "if" there is a workforce shortage,  there are millions of people who would be willing to come here legally and take these jobs.   Why reward those who have no regard for our laws?
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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2007, 10:53:15 AM »

i am not in favor or hiring illegals, or having them here.  however, your assertion that there is not a shortage of workers is false.  when unemployment reaches a statistical 0, you are going to have a shortage of workers.  that's usually good for workers and their wages.

illegals being hired is a different thing.  that should not happen.  what should happen is that we have a legal way to import the workers we need, and not the criminals and trash that we do not need.  Americans are lazy.  they do not do field work.  they do not do scut construction work.  they do not, as you pointed out, want to work for under 15 dollars an hour.  welfare is better.  yes, we have some unemployed people.  no, they will not take unskilled labor jobs.

Mici, our unemployment rate is about 4.5.  we do need workers.

robo, you are correct.  we should not.  however, we do need a way to quickly find out who is here.  to that extent, a visa for those already here makes more sense than trying to round up and deport millions.  i do not like the current proposal, but there are parts of it that are salvageable.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2007, 11:20:53 AM »

ok...so now we divided importing workforce into two categories, legal and illegal.
i don't see much difference, no, i should rephrase that, both categories represent a problem, at least they do here. and i must say, i do not know of that many illegal cases, laws are strict, so around here you won't find that many illegals. still about the crime and stuff....
we import a worker, soon his wife followes, then come kids (from his country, or they simply have them) and they do not mind living on the edge of survival (remember, only the father of the whole family works). this imported family will not adept to our culture, they are a big family, kids are not willing to study, they are trapped within their OWN recognition of themselves as unadapted, and later they say we don't like them, so...to cut the chase, imported worker is the seed of the crime. and i stand by this statement as firm as .....i know of numerous cases.

now...the modern society would say i'm nacistic, because modern society is DUMB, but in general, imigrants are nothing but trouble and crime. migrations are the worst thing that can happen to us (migration between nations).

many say migrations have happened in the past etc etc...well but no one says how small the numbers were in the past, compared to nowadays millions of migrants.
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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2007, 11:56:47 AM »

mici, you describe a problem that i have seen in England and France.  they have imported workers as an extension of their prior colonization policy.  they expect the workers to come and work, but they do not encourage assimilation if the workers are going to stay.  they give these people rights and benefits, but do not teach them or expect them to be citizens of their new country.  you end up with a "them and us" civilization that is bound to be antagonistic.

add to that the importation of people who are sworn to your destruction and you have a really big problem.

so far, the USA has avoided much of this because we do expect people to assimilate and we encourage them to be successful.  to some extent, that is changing.  it is not the fault of immigration.  it is the fault of the social welfare system and the education system.  both encourage dependency and status quo, rather than upward mobility and assimilation.....WHICH MEANS LEARNING ENGLISH, not wallowing in ESL classes.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2007, 06:17:11 PM »

It's interesting you declare my position false when my position is based on firsthand knowledge.  Believe what you want, that belief continues to fuel our wonderful government's intentions.   rolleyes
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2007, 07:25:16 PM »

reinbeau, there is a difference between there being no jobs, and there being no jobs in the field you want, or at the wage you would like.

if you are a lawyer and the market wants nurses, you may not find a job.  if you are a gardener and there is a drought, you may not find a job.  you may need to move to a location that needs your skills.  you may need to change your skill set.

if you are a farmer and you need field hands, you will not find unemployed lawyers or gardeners who wish to pick your crops.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2007, 08:12:02 PM »

Of course not, Kathy, I'm well aware of supply and demand in the labor market.  And we're not talking about unemployed lawyers or nurses, we're talking about unemployed roofers, carpenters, dishwashers, etc. all of which are native born Americans who can't get jobs because the Brazilians (around here) and other immigrants have taken the jobs for much less money.   I don't need corporate spin thrown at me.  And keep in mind I am a registered Republican, and former business manager, I really do understand what and why this is happening.

I am totally unimpressed with the business 'reasons' being used to justify using illegal labor to make a cheaper buck.
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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2007, 08:21:01 PM »

i don't believe i ever advocated for illegal labor.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2007, 06:37:42 AM »

Well, that's what the bottom line is here.  A false 'need' for cheap labor (because Americans don't want the jobs, supposedly) justifies the amnesty for millions of illegals flooding over the border.  Short term profits for some, long term headaches for the rest of us.
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« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2007, 10:41:02 AM »

 businesses like cheep labor.  cant' blame them for that. 

we already have a shortage of field workers here.  there is already concern for the strawberry crop.  it must be hand picked.  there are not enough workers.  where are all these unemployed white folks?  sitting in the AC controlled welfare or unemployment offices...where are the white kids, or black kids for that matter, when hotel rooms need cleaning, or trash needs picking up at a construction site.  minimum wage jobs.  they are to good for it.  they don't even want to flip burgers anymore.  seniors are working Micky D's. 

unskilled labor has always gone to the lowest bidder.  maybe your friends should ask why the unions have made us non-competitive and forced employers to pay non-competitive wages and benefits?

as for the amnesty question:  i understand the concern.  i understand the hype.  however, look at this practically.  we can not round up and deport 12 million + people.  we can't do it logistically.  we can do it from a business standpoint.  we do need to know who is here.  the best way to do that quickly, is to register those who are here.  after you have done that, you can deport those you catch and are not here with a visa.  the Z visa has some big problems.  however, knowing who is here, and doing it quickly is a good goal.

if you really want to solve the illegal problem, there are two things you need.  1 is deadly force used at the borders for those who try to come across illegaly,  and 2 get rid of the programs that make coming here attractive and make Americans lazy.

i do believe that border security should be number one, followed closely by getting a handle on who is living here.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2007, 05:22:40 PM »

Sorry, Kathy, but you sound like a spokesperson for the Republican machine, and that machine is going to do all it can to keep the cheap, ILLEGAL labor flowing.  That's the point.  It's illegal.  Never mind dragging unions and everything else into it.  The bottom line is illegal.  As for my 'friends' (not my friends, just people from all over this area, I'm not talking about a couple-two-three), they don't work in union jobs.  They don't work at all now that all those wonderful cheap ILLEGALS have their jobs, making all those poor, beleaguered business owners tons of illegal profits.  It's wrong.  The business owners should be tossed in jail, too.  Money made illegally is just that.  Illegal. 

Yes, of course we need border security now.  And I really don't care if it's via lethal force, if that's what it takes, then do it.  Oh, that's right, we did have some border guards do just that, shot some drug-dealing illegal in the arse as he crossed our border illegally, and what happened to them?  THEY got prosecuted and tossed into jail.  rolleyes  The border security guards are the most demoralized group of people employed by the government at this point.

We can't afford to build a wall to keep them out - and yet we can build walls along highways and interstates to block sound, there's miles more of that in this country than there are borders with Mexico.  These walls are more than adequate to keep people on their proper side.

Until this whole thing turns around to what's right is right none of this is ever going to get straightened out. 

As for not being able to round up 12 million of them and deport them - we can afford to give them services, however?  We can give them free medical care?  We can send their kids to college on my dime?  Bull.  Use my dimes to get rid of them.  Where there's a will there's a way, the problem is, there is no will in our government, Republican or Democrat, to get rid of them or truly stop the flow. 

And my wonderful Senator Kennedy is ranting and raving nightly about these 'poor people who just want a chance'.  Then let them come here properly.  The Dems want them because they think they'll vote for more Dems.  Oh, that's right, you don't really even need to prove you're a citizen to vote, that's a violation of some kind of civil rights!  Yaaaa.

When people literally fight for the right to do business illegally..... rolleyes  Short term profits, long term disaster.

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« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2007, 05:52:52 PM »

well, we agree on one thing....kennedy is a raving lunatic.

this just isn't a soap box issue for me.  i think we should do what can be done practically, quickly, and with the least disruption to the economy.  we won't do that because the things we should do are not PC.  at this point we'd be better off to have them pass no bill, than to have them pass one that is the size of the last copy of the EU constitution.  as a whole, it's a bad bill.  i do think there are some good ideas, as mentioned before.

i am not an advocate for the republican party, the bill, or illegal immigrants.  i hope i am an advocate for a little common sense...which at this point i do not see on either side.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2007, 12:28:05 AM »

When I was a kid full employment was 1005 employed.  Everybodies working.  Today the USA has an unemployment rate of 4-5% and there's talked about as if we're over employed--that we can't get enough work for everybody. 

What I find so funny (not really) is that a lot of the most successful startup businesses by white Americans are doing the jobs the the Hispanics no longer want to do.   Most of the Hispanics in my area have moved out of cleaning lawns and pools and running restuarants and hotels instead.  The local garner is now last years High School graduate.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
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