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Author Topic: Need Help in removing large bottom deep  (Read 2433 times)
annette
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« on: June 03, 2007, 06:04:06 PM »

I need advice.

Went into my weak hive today. When I examined the bottom large deep, I saw some frames with no wax comb (the bees must have eaten this), some frames with just empty wax comb, some frames with pollen, and one frame with some capped worker brood. (This is a 10 frame, large super set up)

The queen is working in the upper medium supers as I have been seeing her there and that is where all the brood is.

I want to remove this bottom super as they are weak now and obviously do not need all this room plus I am afraid the wax moths will eventually figure out that they can come in now.

Can I place a queen excluder above this bottom super and just wait until the brood hatches out and then take the box off???  Is there another way to remove this super?

I am trying to go with all medium supers and this is a good opportunity to get my supers all the same size, plus I want to help this weak hive to defend itself.

I await your help
Annette

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fishawk
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« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 06:11:11 PM »

If the queen is in the top two supers remove the bottom one and remove all the bees in the bottom into the two meduim supers I don't see a problem here .
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annette
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« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2007, 06:14:55 PM »

My supers are different sizes. That is what I am expressing. The bottom super is a full size super, while the top 2 supers are mediums. I cannot switch out frames from the bottom to the top, or I definitely would do that.

Keep the help coming.

Annette
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2007, 06:22:17 PM »

Why should the difference in sizes stop you? 
I use nothing but mediums for brood chambers and honey supers.  Having the frames all the same size everywhere solves a lot of problems that having different sized boxes causes. 

This is the perfect time to switch to a more user friendly system that is not nearly as hard on the back.
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annette
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2007, 06:28:48 PM »

I understand the confusion.

What I am saying is I have capped brood on one of the frames in that bottom super. I cannot place this frame of brood into the medium supers.

This is the problem. Just this one frame of capped brood.

Annette
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2007, 06:39:00 PM »

Unless you have an upper entrance putting on a queen excluder as you suggested would trap all the drone up top to die.   You have the right idea, but I would remove the deep, put the mediums on the bottom board, then the queen excluder, and then the deep with the brood.  Once the brood hatches, you can just take the deep and queen excluder off the top.
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kathyp
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2007, 06:52:37 PM »

what robo said.  you may find that the bees start filling that deep with honey....if you are no longer going to use deeps, just take that for yourself.  otherwise, i'd say throw it in the freezer for later......or use that box -brood as a swarm trap....

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« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2007, 07:02:48 PM »

The one frame of brood in the deep isn't a problem. Some nurse bees will stay with  the brood untill it is capped. Put the two mediums on bottom. If possible, without too much disturbance try to get the one with the queen on bottom.
In another week check and see if the brood in the deep has hatched. As soon as they hatch, put another medium on in 3rd spot.
I know, this is going to put the deep up higher. When you get ready to remove it , use an extra box and take half the frames out one by one to lighten the load.
doak
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annette
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« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2007, 07:31:33 PM »

The brood is already capped. OK so my understanding is, 2 mediums on bottom, queen excluder on top, full deep super on top of that. Wait about 1 week and if brood has hatched out, then remove super.

Thanks for the help
Annette
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doak
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« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2007, 08:30:22 PM »

If you don't want the deep to be filled with honey, yes, remove it.
But put a medium in it's place so they will have plenty room.
If it has honey in it when you remove it, and the honey isn't too thin you can save it.
Tilt the frame up flat wise and if the nector/honey doesn't run out on it's own, it is ripe enough, wheather it is capped or not.
My bit.
doak
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2007, 10:58:47 PM »

0Why has no one mentioned cutting the comb with the brood out and tying it in the smaller frames? Or did I miss that somewhere?
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2007, 11:43:19 PM »

One reason not to cut the brood and try to put in a smaller frame. Taking too long and letting it chill.
not saying nothing for the size difference in frames. If you do that just go ahead and throw the brood away.
Just put the deep on top with or with out an excluder. It can be completely removed after the brood hatches,  if the deep is not wanted that high.
Keep it simple.
doak
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rdy-b
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2007, 01:00:13 AM »

simple is good cool do what you where going to do use excluder and let brood hatch.no stress to colony  cool leaving deep on botom until brood hatches means resources will be put up (they put honey & pollen above brood not below)after brood hatches remove deep the colony will never miss a beat.add desierd size supper when needed the bees will do the rest .feed them if they get light ,must be hard for bees to build up in placervile did you catch any manzineta this year? cool hope this helps  RDY-B
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2007, 04:57:22 AM »

Annette, not sure what type of foundation you use but if you could take that brood frame out and cut it to fit one of your medium frames, as Jerrymac mentioned this would solve your problem in a second. Those of us who perform cut-outs do this on a daily basis. Also, if you are worried about wax moth don't forget about Certan. I use it on all my cut-outs to keep wax moths off the brood combs. If you can't cut the comb because you are using plasticell or something similar I would put that deep up top as has been suggested with a queen excluder below it, wait for the brood to hatch out and then remove the deep. Good luck, Jp.
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2007, 06:32:09 AM »

I think the real issue is the size of the hive proportionate to the strength of the bees.  I would either cut the comb and tie it or leave a frame out of both mediums and let the deep hang down into the bottom one from the top one.  After they have emerged, pull it.  Do this on the edge and odds are the queen will want to lay in the middle of the box.

I would reduce the space as soon as you can, and that would be one of the these solutions.

Capped brood does not chill easily.  Marla Spivak says they have trouble killing it with liquid nitrogen if they aren't patient enough to leave it for a while.
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annette
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2007, 01:18:23 PM »

Thank you for all the responses. I am using the plastic cells, so cut outs would not be possible. I have a lot to digest now and will make a decision this week, on my day off of work. It doesn't sound too difficult. I will let you all know what course of action I took and how it is going.

I like what Michael Bush said about placing the frame into the mediums, because then I can immediately remove the bottom full size super and reduce the space asap, which is probably causing this little hive a lot of stress.

My next question is, when I finally remove this bottom super, do I just place it on the ground next to the hive and let them take out any pollen that is in there??? I know I have asked this question before, but this time the box has pollen in it.

I appreciate all the responses as I learn something from each and every one of you. I may at one time or another use any advice I receive, plus I am always learning from different beekeepers on different ways to handle a problem. I just love this forum and this has gotten me through this whole experience.

Annette

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annette
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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2007, 01:29:32 PM »

simple is good cool do what you where going to do use excluder and let brood hatch.no stress to colony  cool leaving deep on botom until brood hatches means resources will be put up (they put honey & pollen above brood not below)after brood hatches remove deep the colony will never miss a beat.add desierd size supper when needed the bees will do the rest .feed them if they get light ,must be hard for bees to build up in placervile did you catch any manzineta this year? cool hope this helps  RDY-B

Thank you for the reply, I will make a decision soon as what to do and I really appreciate all the input.


In reply to  rdy-b, about my bees. I have a grove of manzineta trees directly in back of the hives and all over the property and area, plus wild blackberries (now) and star thistle later (we hate this weed, but the bees love it, and many beekeepers sell star thistle honey around here) It is very dry here as we have a natural drought from about April-May until October-November. I know most of the people on this forum speak about trouble with having drought but here this is common.

I am a new beekeeper so this is my 2nd year. Last year the bees were making honey up until October, although slowly. I still do not understand the whole honey-flow concept up here yet because it is always dry. Yes, I believe we are into the main part of it now, but there is always something blooming around here all year. (except maybe November - January)

Thank you for all the help.
Annette



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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2007, 01:38:10 PM »

I like what Michael Bush said about placing the frame into the mediums, because then I can immediately remove the bottom full size super and reduce the space asap, which is probably causing this little hive a lot of stress.
The only drawback will be how to prevent the queen from continuing to lay eggs on this deep frame
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My next question is, when I finally remove this bottom super, do I just place it on the ground next to the hive and let them take out any pollen that is in there??? I know I have asked this question before, but this time the box has pollen in it.
They won't rob out the pollen,  they will prefer to collect fresh.
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annette
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2007, 01:56:37 PM »

This is a good point!!! MB says to place this frame on the edge of the super and the queen will most likely want to lay in the center of the super.

But now I think I am taking a chance with that, as who knows where the queen would lay her eggs. If she starts to lay in this frame then I will have a real problem having this wrong size frame in my mediums. Plus they may start to place other stuff in this frame, which I do not want them to do.

I think now I will probably go back to the original idea and just place the mediums on bottom, excluder, then large super on top, removing it when the brood hatches out.

Thanks once again
Annette
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rdy-b
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2007, 02:25:37 PM »

maybe if you leave the box on the bottom to hatch and remove latter they wont put anything more in it.any way you have control and know your bees best .freze pollen frames and save for another adventure.many more to come grin
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