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Author Topic: at what point?  (Read 4250 times)
kathyp
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« on: May 31, 2007, 09:06:38 PM »

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=3231184&page=1

i thought this guy would be some poor immigrant that didn't understand what was going on.  instead, it's an ambulance chaser!

at what point should the government curtail the rights of one to protect the many?  is enforced isolation to prevent the possible spread of disease, worth taking someones civil liberties?  should the government be able to confine someone if they have committed no crime? (except stupidity)
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2007, 09:10:50 PM »

What that article doesn't say is that his father-in-law works for the CDC and is a specialist in communicable diseases, specifically, TB! .

From http://www.thestar.com/News/article/219964

Quote
Associated Press
Quarantined TB patient is the son-in-law of a CDC microbiologist ATLANTA — The honeymooner quarantined with a dangerous strain of tuberculosis was identified Thursday as a 31-year-old personal injury lawyer whose new father-in-law is a microbiologist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) specializing in the spread of TB.
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2007, 09:23:40 PM »

This guy from what i have heard, Knew he was not to travel and did so anyway. My opinon is he commited a crime even if there is not one on the books which i dont know if there is or not.
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2007, 10:48:50 PM »

What that article doesn't say is that his father-in-law works for the CDC and is a specialist in communicable diseases, specifically, TB! .

Yeah when I read that I was wondering if there was some weird government experiment going on. OH darn. Conspiracy theorist showing through again.
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2007, 10:58:59 PM »

maybe daddy wasn't to happy about the wedding?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2007, 03:33:25 AM »

The fool should be locked up, 99% sure he got it from the fatherinlaw.
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« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2007, 07:07:46 AM »

The fool should be locked up, 99% sure he got it from the fatherinlaw.
Nope, the father in law doesn't have TB.
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2007, 10:14:58 AM »


Nope, the father in law doesn't have TB.

The father in law is a microbiologist specializing in the spread of TB.
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2007, 10:42:13 AM »

ok...but what about locking the guy up under guard?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2007, 10:51:18 AM »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070601/ap_on_he_me/tuberculosis_infection_law_3

"I'm a very well-educated, successful, intelligent person," he told the newspaper. "This is insane to me that I have an armed guard outside my door when I've cooperated with everything other than the whole solitary-confinement-in-Italy thing."


Quote
The legal rights of a quarantined person, including the right to request a hearing, are not clear under current law, Gostin said. Some legal scholars said the absence of clear guidelines could lead to a legal tangle that might stall government quarantine actions during an outbreak of pandemic flu or other contagious diseases.

Speaker can challenge the constitutionality of the quarantine order, and might even be able to seek a federal payment for damages, Gostin said.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2007, 11:16:19 AM »

We don't imprison people with HIV, AIDS, other.

If someone has a disease you would think they (the sick person) would take the necessary steps to avoid infecting others. But alas, many people can't see passed their own wants/needs. We have laws against speeding, drunk driving, and many other things that might cause harm/death. A drunk could speed along for 200 miles not wearing his seatbelt and not hurt a soul, should he be punished? Should there be a law against driving drunk? If so, then should there be a law against being in public when you are sick? 
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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2007, 11:54:25 AM »


Nope, the father in law doesn't have TB.

The father in law is a microbiologist specializing in the spread of TB.
Yea, I know, I posted about it in this thread, and you replied to my post!  Wink
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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2007, 12:07:12 PM »

HIV can't be spread by breathing.  if an HIV pos patient engages in unprotected sex without informing his partner(s), he/she can be arrested.

as this idiot proves, people will act in their own best interest.  sometimes they do it out of fear.  sometimes they are just SOB's.  

i don't see much difference between what this person did and the HIV patient who knowingly exposes others.

it's worth thinking about.  we have gamed bio-weapons for a long time.  in the past, we knew that it was a fairly small risk that a weapon would come in from outside the us.  bio-weapons are not that easy to make, maintain, and transport.  now we have people willing to blow themselves up.  they would not hesitate to become walking weapons.  how far are we willing to go?

if this little POS sues, and i wouldn't be surprised, the courts could weaken the NHS's ability to quarantine or isolate patients.  is that good, or bad?  how do we balance rights against the public good?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2007, 08:11:16 PM »

Old pop maynot have it, but he may have had it on him.
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2007, 01:11:23 AM »

I haven't read all the articles on this guy but I do have to wonder if he was really a risk or is it just mostly fear that is the problem.

Here are some facts about TB;
http://www.dhpe.org/infect/tb.html
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« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2007, 01:48:52 AM »

this is not normal TB.  with normal TB, you start treatment and they are not a risk to the public within a short time.  TB is not that easy to catch anyway if you are health.

this guy has an extremely dangerous type that is drug resistant.  it has a 50% death rate.  while most people would not be at risk just by being close to him, anyone whos immune system is compromised could be.  also people that are exposed for an extended period of time in an enclosed space....like a plane.

normal TB patients are not put in isolation.  they are started on treatment and take some minimal precautions until they are sputum negative.  this is a whole different animal.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2007, 11:53:12 PM »

TB patient's relative to be investigated
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070603/ap_on_re_us/tuberculosis_infection;_ylt=AkymA9sE8DwXvDiV9Z47X7Ws0NUE
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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2007, 02:41:46 PM »

Speaker's father, Ted Speaker, said a tape-recording of a pre-trip meeting with
CDC officials confirms the same conclusion. "They said on tape it is not contagious ... at least three times," said the elder Speaker, adding that he plans to release the tape.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070604/us_nm/tuberculosis_usa_dc;_ylt=Amb_M8mTkUbVy7i..pF0UdjMWM0F
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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2007, 03:21:56 PM »

I want to know how he got this TB... huh
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2007, 03:42:34 PM »

Quote
They said on tape it is not contagious ... at least three times," said the elder Speaker, adding that he plans to release the tape.

the issue is not what he knew before he left.  it's what he did after he was in Europe and was contacted about the type of TB he had.  at that point, he ignored what he was instructed to do and intentionally took a route into the us that he hoped would keep him from being detected by us authorities.  he knew how serious the TB was.  He chose to put others at risk.  his actions after being contacted in Italy show that he knew exactly what was expected and had taken steps to circumvent the system.

also makes you wonder why we spend so much effort on the southern border and not so much on the northern border?

Quote
I want to know how he got this TB...


probably traveling.  it would have required being exposed when his system was weak, which happens when you travel, or close contact with someone who was infected.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2007, 01:05:05 AM »

The CDC initally gave the gentleman a recommendation that he should not travel because of his TB. At that point they did not know how drug resistant his TB was. Also he said if he did travel he wear a a mask( he didn't). He spent more than 8 hours on a plane with a group of passengers who i am sure did not ask or desire to have to go through a bunch of TB tests which some of them are going through now. While he was in Italy the CDC told him he needed to get to a facility. Instead because he feared he would not get proper treatment he again flew. Even if the first flight was overlooked. The second one was reckless. I am sorry his family and himself could not afford a private plane but it was his selfishness that put him on a passenger plane to Canada. 

Now I understand that there is debate as to whether he was just infected or active. And I certainly think that is a factor in this. From what I have read he was active. If this is incorrect I would probably change my stance since being infected does not make one contagious. And currently about 1/3 of the world is infected with TB.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2007, 06:27:29 AM »

He was in the audience on David Letterman's show last night.
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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2007, 08:36:59 PM »

Boy, the swing the media took today is huge. It looks like he wasn't as contagious as it originally seemed. Even with the drug resistant strain. I may have to reconsider my thoughts on this.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2007, 08:45:05 PM »

in a small percentage of sputum negative patients, they are still able to pass on the disease.  there is no way to really know. under any circumstances, TB is not that easy to pass on.  the fact that he is sputum neg. does not negate his actions, does it? 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2007, 11:13:01 PM »

in a small percentage of sputum negative patients, they are still able to pass on the disease.  there is no way to really know. under any circumstances, TB is not that easy to pass on.  the fact that he is sputum neg. does not negate his actions, does it? 
It depends. If the CDC said he was contagious then his actions were reckless. However if they told him he was not then I would have to wonder. Playing small percentages is a bit ridiculous. We all have some germ or bacteria that has a small percentage chance of doing something harmful or contagious.

I would still like to get some more information on this.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2007, 12:04:21 AM »

Quote
Playing small percentages is a bit ridiculous

i guess that's true....unless you are the guy sitting next to the person with the incurable TB that has a 50% death rate  smiley
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« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2007, 12:38:23 AM »

E Coli 3-5% Death rate
Salmonella 3%
Staphylococcus aureus 38%
Listeria monocytogenes 24%
Vibrio vulnificus  50%

and many more.

I still am going to research this more.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2007, 12:41:03 PM »

What he did was selfish and uncaring. He should be asked if he would have knowingly permitted his child to sit next to a stranger on a plane w/ this disease. I have represented many people w/ this antibiotic resistant starin of TB. Its not easy to get, but very dangerous to people who are otherwise compromised by age, streess, or disorders. I ahve been exposed four times, each time I went for the test and was negative. Whether the gov't can quarantine is always an interesting question. More common is this antibiotic resistant strain of staph. This is easy to get and can be devastating and life threatening.
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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2007, 05:32:58 PM »

"I know we keep harping on this and maybe we are not reading the right material (which I'm sure will be pointed out to us by our ever-astute readers) but where is the evidence that he is infective?

What we know is that he has three negative sputum cultures.

What has been reported in some place is that he has a lower lobe mass seen on chest x-ray (CXR) -- which, by the way, is not typical of TB pulmonary radiographic presentation.

We have also read in prior reports that there is a "smear positive." From where? And when? Did they repeat it? Could it have been an error?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20070607/cm_huffpost/051139;_ylt=AlL12L0qbQYPSYMeyOUbSJLMWM0F
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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2007, 05:57:10 PM »

i guess my question was this:  at what point do the needs of the many....outweigh the needs of the one.  oh ya....i'm an original Trekkie  smiley

regardless of the "facts" of this case, we have, and will, face similar circumstances in the future.  people travel.  now they travel faster and farther than they ever have and with fewer restrictions.  the EU is basically borderless as far a travel goes.  people whos movements were restricted by their countries in the past, are no longer kept from travel.

the CDC handles cases from around the world.  they are the "go to" people for everyone when there are cases that need further examination or a solution.  they do not take their responsibility lightly....which is not to say that they are infallible.

when the CDC advises or instructs a person about behavior or travel, how much weight should that carry?  the weight of the law?  or the weight of advice?

in this particular case, this man has an extremely dangerous, if not highly communicable disease.  even if the risk of spreading the disease is low, does he have the right to make a choice that may put others at risk when he has other options?
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« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2007, 11:37:23 PM »

I know I can never get anyone to see my point of view but here is the way I am. I am not afraid of anything. That's right I would have rode beside the guy even if I knew he had the TB. A person has just as much right to refuse to travel as one does to travel. In other words, if the dangers in this world are too much for you, just stay home.

Now the only way they found his problem was an X-ray taken for an injured rib. If he had not hurt himself no one would know and no one would care where he went, how, why, or when. And he would be just as much of a risk. He has no indications that he is sick.

Are these people more of a criminal than one that commits a crime? Should their rights be thrown out the window? Tomorrow you might be right beside someone that has exactly what he has, only no one knows about it.

I think the biggest part of this is media hype. And then the rest is the CDC trying to save themselves. They knew he had TB since January. But didn't know what kind until last month  rolleyes

He is not now and has never been a risk. Why is there the need to persecute him?   
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« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2007, 07:13:03 AM »

Actually, Jerry, I do see your point of view and agree with you.  This was driven by the media and, I think, the CDC realizing how badly they had mishandled the whole issue. 
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« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2007, 10:04:59 AM »

interesting point of views.   i don't disagree with you on most points.  i doubt it was mishandled by the CDC.  i think it was spun by the lawyers, and by fear all around of the legal crap to come.

i think the disconnect with the public has come because people are no longer familiar with TB.  that's a good thing.  people do not understand this drug resistant type....but i fear they will.

i guess my original point was not so much about this guy and his complete lack of regard for those around him, and more about how we will handle people who are infected with nasty things in the future.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2007, 10:38:08 AM »

OK. Here is what we do. Everybody has to get tested for everything known to man by the end of the month. Those that have any form of something possibly remotely dangerous will be taken out back for the firing squad.  shocked Well..... it's too risky for them to be running loose and bullets are cheaper than treatment and/or containment.  rolleyes

I guess the only way to answer the question is this.... How would you want to be treated if you were the infected person? How about one of your loved ones. Yeah I know. A lot of us would limit our own movements and do the responsible thing without having to be forced at gunpoint. But there are those situations that come up. This guy was gonna get married. Why it had to be over seas I don't know. I don't understand why people want/need to spend a bunch of money on weddings. Just go to the Justice of Peace and get hitched. That's real cheap. (Opps. Side tracked) But what if it was some other reason such as a funeral or some other family emergency? Would you go? If the experts seemed confused about you state of being would you go? And then would you want to be stuck there?   
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« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2007, 11:21:16 AM »

if i were in Italy and the CDC called me to inform me that i was carrying something that was a potential risk to those around me, i'd would do as i was instructed.  i know that the CDC does not make calls like that lightly, in part because a part of their protocol is to avoid panic.  i also know that having followed their instructions, arrangements could be made to get appropriate treatment to me, or to get me home safely.  i would not put others at risk to save my own hide or to do my own thing.  i most certainly would not embark on a 12 hour flight across the ocean in a plane with recirculated air, exposing everyone to what i might be carrying.

i am guessing that the next time, the CDC will make the call to the local authorities and the patient will be escorted to isolation.  this man chose to put others at risk.  next time, there will be no choice given.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2007, 02:48:54 PM »

Timeline of Andrew Speaker

http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=3235763&page=1

"They said, 'We would prefer you not to go on the trip,'" he says. "And that's when my father said, 'OK, are you saying because he's a risk to anybody or are you simply saying it to cover yourself?' And they said, 'We have to tell you that to cover ourselves, but he's not a risk.'"

Speaker and his family say they asked the CDC for help in getting him home, because it would have cost him $100,000 to fly back on a noncommercial airline. The family maintains that the CDC offered no help to arrange alternative transportation for Speaker to get back to the United States.
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« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2007, 03:05:36 PM »

i have not doubt the first part is true.  at that point, they did not know that he had drug resistant TB. he was no doubt under treatment and sputum neg.

as for the second part, we'll never know that exact conversation, but we do know that he did not follow instructions.  i have also been told that someone was sent to his hotel to help with arrangements, but he had fled.  1st concern was to get him isolated.  after that, other things could have been worked out.  he chose to put others at risk.  i don't know how that can be defended?

according to this article, he was contacted twice.  he had lots of time to think about what he was doing.  his actions do not show panic, they show calculated indifference for others.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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