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Author Topic: Apiguard/Formic Acid Methods, & Step by Step Transition to SC  (Read 7708 times)
DayValleyDahlias
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« on: May 21, 2007, 09:36:15 AM »

Dadant had an add for Apiguard...I have read that some folks here use it...I am also reading up on Formic Acid  ( Mite-Away II )...for those who use it...how do you like it?

I am also wondering IF there is a simple step by step instruction posted somewhere, showing transition to small cell?

Thanks Much

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Kirk-o
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2007, 10:47:27 AM »

Formic Acid Apigard and alike things are not natural so they shouldn't be put in the hive.Michael Bush or Organic Beekeepers on Yahoo can probably answer you questions on regrssing to small cell
kirko
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DayValleyDahlias
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2007, 10:52:27 AM »

I realize that the addition of anything not natural is best not used in a hive, however, it seems as though regressing takes a certain amount of time?  I am concerned about mite control UNTIL small cell is achieved...

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Mici
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2007, 11:43:59 AM »

I realize that the addition of anything not natural is best not used in a hive, however, it seems as though regressing takes a certain amount of time?  I am concerned about mite control UNTIL small cell is achieved...



we are on the same path.

don't know much about formic acid but what i heard is..
put it on at the end of summer-beggining of autumn, when you start feeding, i think 10ml on some cloth, and put it over the brood nest, takes 10 days to vapourize, the queen stops laying for those 10 days.

now, there is a better description on how to use it but.. i replyied from a different reason.

i too, was wondering what would be the best way..to use the old style, and contaminate this years combs...sugar shake? how effective is??!?! i'm really in a pickle, somehow i'm not wiling to go with "don't treat, let the nature decide who is worth living", not with only 5 hives.
something will have to be done this year for sure...just can't decide.. i did however make an etanoy/acetic acid vaporizer, and the little bugger seems to be quite effective but again..you can't say 25% etanoy acid is vinegar.... but i'll probably use it this year, since i'm almost sure it doesn't leave residue, and the bees seem to cope very well.
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DayValleyDahlias
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2007, 09:16:59 PM »

Wow, now there is one I haven't heard before...high stregnth vinegar..Inow it kill weeds pretty well...oil of clove too...hhhmmmm
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RiceLake
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 09:37:43 PM »

Go to miteaway.com  it is a company that manufactures formic acid pads.
Some interesting info .


I have used them and they work well.
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Dane Bramage
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 11:39:29 PM »

I used Mite-Away II (Formic Acid pads) per their instructions on my 4 Nucs-started hives this year.  I also would prefer to use nothing.. or some naturopathic remedy at most, but "inheriting" the frames from a commercial beek, I thought it best to proceed with this method as a one-time application.  I also have screened bottom boards.  The weather was mostly cool (& never above 85F) throughout the 21 day application.  There were no bee (nor brood) losses that I could ascertain... so I am hopeful it was a success.

Re: small cell ~> if regression is a concern (& costs, time, etc., aren't?) you *may* want to consider a 100% transition to fully drawn small cell ~> http://www.honeysupercell.com/sblog/.  I just read here (somewhere) that M.Bush dips his fully drawn small cell plastic comb (http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm?) in wax and has excellent acceptance.
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DayValleyDahlias
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2007, 09:31:02 AM »

Once again...so many options...whoa...

I am definitley going to study the HSC site...seems as thoug it would be good to have those frames available especially if one catches a swarm...start right off with sc....perhaps?
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2007, 10:28:56 AM »

I am definitley going to study the HSC site...seems as thoug it would be good to have those frames available especially if one catches a swarm...start right off with sc....perhaps?

I started two swarms on HSC 2 weeks ago.   So far so good.
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DayValleyDahlias
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2007, 10:49:16 AM »

Robo,

How many frames of HSC did you use...Do you just fill up a hive body with them?

Thanks
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Robo
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« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2007, 11:10:59 AM »

I had one swarm that was really big and gave them 2 - 10 frame hive bodies.  The other was actually a cut out that I did that had no salvageable comb and only about a coffee can full of bees.  I put them in a 3 frame nuc.
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Mici
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« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2007, 03:31:24 PM »

if only permacomb or HSC was available to me-for a reasonable price, i'd buy it this moment!
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Moonshae
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2007, 03:48:56 PM »

How do you dip HSC in wax without clogging up the cells? How much wax do you need?

I really wish I had gotten small cell foundation for my just-started hives, but I hadn't gotten deep enough into the info here. I'm going to do my best to get them down, and if I start any new hives, they'll be small cell from the get go. Even if it turns out that small cell doesn't really help control the mites, I've yet to see anyone describe any DISADVANTAGES of having small bees. The people who don't agree w/ small cell seem to be arguing it's just a waste of time, not that it has any bad effects.

To my limited understanding of physics, smaller cells at least should be stronger, due to a greater wax to open space ratio, and since there are also more cells per frame, increased laying space in the same area conceivably should help with swarm control. Or maybe I'm totally off base. Anyone notice these kinds of benefits?
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Robo
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« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2007, 08:40:18 PM »

How do you dip HSC in wax without clogging up the cells? How much wax do you need?


There is no need to dip HSC, it is already SC.   Michael dips permacomb (large cell) to make it small cell.  I believe he pre heats the frames in the oven and dips and then shakes the excess out.  He has explained it here somewhere,  just do a search on permacomb.
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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2007, 12:02:55 PM »

Robo
Here are your two swarms doing on the HSC?
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Robo
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2007, 12:17:45 PM »

Robo
Here are your two swarms doing on the HSC?


They are doing quite well and it looks like I'll get a couple mediums of honey off of one.  The other only started with about a coffee can full of bees.  They were hesitant to use the HSC when it is new,  but once it is used, they treat it like any other comb.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=10443.msg70014#msg70014

Rob....
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« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2007, 01:16:30 PM »

I am on the verge of pulling the trigger and getting a box.  I have a hive that just came out of a nuk and it would definatley make sense to fill the deep with these and then cull out the existing frames. 

I really like the idea of small cell, but the transition time and complication is probably just too much for me at this point.  Additionally, besides the fact that I already have deep frames with foundation, I don't think the cost of these is too far out if you consider time, cost of treatments, losses due to weakness from mites, etc. 
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« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2007, 01:17:14 PM »

Robo
What color would you do considering your experience with black and white?
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Robo
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« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2007, 02:06:19 PM »

Robo
What color would you do considering your experience with black and white?

I started with white because that was the only choice when I started.  When the frames are brand new,  it is almost impossible to see eggs in the cells.  But once there has been a generation of brood reared in them,  they have the same visibility as newly drawn wax frames.  I imagine the frames will continue to darken as more generations are raised.

I then purchased some back HSC when it became available.  I was hoping that spotting eggs would be similar to the black Pierco frames.  However,  I was greatly disappointed.  With the black Pierco, you get a white egg on a black background,  but the cell walls are white wax and let light thru.  With the black HSC,  the walls are also black and don't let light thru.  It is like looking into a black hole. You have to really manipulate the frames in the sunlight to even stand a chance at seeing anything.  I don't see this getting any better with age either, unless the cacoons reflect light down deeper into the cell.

So I am back to buying white again.  As you can see in the picture, it darkens up quickly once they start using it.
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« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2007, 02:11:12 PM »

I am on the verge of pulling the trigger and getting a box.  I have a hive that just came out of a nuk and it would definatley make sense to fill the deep with these and then cull out the existing frames. 

Don't want to discourage you, but unless you have a good flow going on,  I think they will ignore the HSC as long as they have the original wax frames.  The queen will most likely ignore the plastic and wait it out on the real wax.  The best I think you will see is them storing pollen and nectar in the HSC. 
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