ruled on Monday that people are required to identify themsel

[BigRog]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A divided U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled on Monday that people are required to identify themselves when asked to do so by police, and rejected arguments that it violates their constitutional rights to privacy and to remain silent.

By a 5-4 vote, the high court upheld a Nevada law that officers may detain individuals to find out their identity, based on reasonable suspicions of wrongdoing. People must identify themselves, but cannot be required to answer any other questions.

The ruling was a victory for the U.S. Justice Department (news - web sites) and state officials who said forced identification represented a "minimal" intrusion on privacy rights, helped solve crimes and contributed to police and public safety.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...urt_police_dc_1


And to celebrate this fine momment in constitutional history, the supreme court has announce the issue of a commemerative toilet paper

Here is a pic of the new toilet paper design

[Beth Kirkley]

I remember reading something about this months ago - the whole argument on it that is.
My feelings are: if you don't want to say who you are, fine, just get yourself hauled off to jail till the police figure it out on their own.

The way I see it is - if you can't simply tell the police your name, you're probably hiding something. I have seen all through my life people who scream about privacy - on their property, in their home, in their lives. They were also the same people that were doing illegal activity. Now sure, I don't want the government or police (or army) to have a right to take over my home. Like if there was a civil war, I wouldn't want to be continually harrassed or to have my home taken over for a base. But if the police want to know my name, see my home, search my property - no problem. I've got nothing I need to have hidden.
And I will say there are limits to my willingness to show my home. I wouldn't want the rumored camera in the tv thing. But, still again, my reason is because I have something to hide. I might just be wanting to run around my house nekid' and don't want that seen. (Like THAT happens all the time. LOL)

John 3:20  "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 3:21  "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Only reason a person needs privacy is if they have something to hide. Privacy has it's place, but not giving your name to the police is just plain dumb in my book.

Beth

[beefree]

the issue is not whether or not i have anything i wish to hide (my family gave up the moonshine still a while back).  The real issue is whether or not the gov't has the right to require me to give them any information.  They don't.  For that matter, they don't have the right to tax my income, but that's another fire ring spew...  and yes, despite their lack of any right to demand these things of me, i still do obey the laws... but ONLY because of Romans 13:1-2.  And i'm still mad about having to obey the speed limit since i read that.
beefree

[Beth Kirkley]

LOL It's for the best beefree, and you know it.

We all know there has to be rules of some sort. From the begining of time there were rules. Now granted, we've been breaking them that long too, but we still need them. About the only law I can think of right off that I don't agree with is that pot is illegal. I don't personally smoke it, and have often really disliked some people that did. But I do know it can have good medicinal effects for people. And for that reason I wish they could have it without a problem.
But I think the rest of the laws I agree with pretty well.

Beth

[snowzerdog]

The ten commandments I think covers the way we should act.   Think about it you can read every law that we have into those ten.  But yes the bible does say we still have to obey mans law,  But wasn't Jesus a radical also  The only laws I disagree with are victimless laws.  i.e.  Pot,  consenual sex between adults, womans right to birth control   What goes on behind the closed doors of my house are of no concern to anyone as long as no one is hurt or being hurt.  I may not agree with some of the weird things people do but if it does'nt affect my life I don't worry about it. I am not my brothers keeper.  I will not judge anyone.  That is up tp God.  Now I know some of you will probably nitpick at what I say, But that is your opinion and I don't have to agree as this is my  opinion.  And the saying goes, Opinions are like as*holes we all have one.

[BigRog]

What happened to the right to remain silent?
The goverment is not more important that the individual

The "If you have nothing to hide" argument is not valid, If you have nothing to hide why don't you want to let them in your house? WHy not let them puruse your finances? How about telling them who's on your AOL buddy list? Submit to a lie dectector test (Not for anything specific, just to see if you've violated any laws)? At what point does it stop? Today evrytime you get ID'd by a cop you get run through a ever more complete and often innaccurate database. I have spent the night locked up due to a mistake, A traffic ticket I had paid about two years before came up unpaid. I was arrested and put in a cell. My employer bailed me out in the AM, I was driving his truck at the time. I also lost that job and couldn't get my license back for about 7 weeks, they took it when I was arrested. Hey what did I have to fear? Incorrect incarceration, loss of livleyhood, loss of my drivers license for longer than many suspensions are handed out for. Thats all I had to fear. Why? Because some clerk didn't enter some data. When you go into the system you have to rely that EVERY person who affects the system is doing the job all the time from the police officer who asks for the ID to courts clerks not misplacing some record to a low level data entry clerk hammering away at a keyboard bored to tears.
Now what do you have to fear? When they make a mistake on you? Your kids go into foster care? Your property gets confiscated? You're thrown in jail?

Our founding fathers had it pretty much right

The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is inefficiency. An efficient bureaucracy is the greatest threat to liberty.
Eugene McCarthy (1916 - ), Time magazine, Feb. 12, 1979

The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments.
William H. Borah

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790), Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
Voltaire (1694 - 1778)

No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the legislature is in session.
Judge Gideon J. Tucker

There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.
John Adams (1735 - 1826), Journal, 1772

Sure there are dishonest men in local government. But there are dishonest men in national government too.
Richard M. Nixon (1913 - 1994)

The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced.
Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)

Where you find the laws most numerous, there you will find also the greatest injustice.
Arcesilaus

Liberty without learning is always in peril; learning without liberty is always in vain.
John F. Kennedy (1917 - 1963)

Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)


The love of liberty is the love of others; the love of power is the love of ourselves.
William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)


If you want to be free, there is but one way; it is to guarantee an equally full measure of liberty to all your neighbors. There is no other.
Carl Schurz (1829 - 1906)


What more felicity can fall to creature, than to enjoy delight with liberty.
Edmund Spenser (1552 - 1599), 'The Fate of the Butterfly,' 1591

Such is the irresistible nature of truth that all it asks, and all it wants, is the liberty of appearing.
Thomas Paine (1737 - 1809)

Just leave me alone
BigRog (1957 - ?)  Almost everyday

[Kris^]

IOnly reason a person needs privacy is if they have something to hide. Privacy has it's place, but not giving your name to the police is just plain dumb in my book.

My reason for valuing privacy is that it provides the best defense against the petty impositions, dramas and stupidities of other people.  

I, too, have nothing to hide, because I generally conduct myself in what I feel to be an honorable manner.  Who's to say, though, whether what I consider honorable might not seem dishonorable to some others?  I only seek the space to live my life in the way I best see fit.

"The makers of the Constitution sought to protect Americans in their beliefs, their thoughts, their emotions and their sensations.  They conferred the right to be left alone -- the most comprehensive of the rights of man and the right most valued by civilized men."  -- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis (1928)

I wonder when it will be deemed "reasonable" that we provide our social security numer to the police when asked?

-- Kris^

[beefree]

About the only law I can think of right off that I don't agree with is that pot is illegal.

But I think the rest of the laws I agree with pretty well.

Beth

the U.S. Code of Laws presently fills most of a 6 foot tall, four foot wide bookshelf.  The U.S. Code of Federal Regulations requires 4 six foot tall, 4 foot wide bookshelves.  The Code of an average state requires 8 feet of shelf space.  The reported decisions of courts in all 50 states and the federal gov't    couldn't be housed in an average residence with bookshelves covering all the walls AND floorspace.  

i can guarantee that there are innumerable laws, regulations and decisions that currently apply to you, that you would not agree with.  For example:

In Massachusetts, a decision by child protective services to remove a child from his mother's care because she attended too many church services in a week (that would be 4 services (IIRC)).

In all 50 fifty states, a sheriff can seize your property (all of it, house, vehicle, BEES, bank accounts, boat, etc) MERELY with an unsworn allegation that those possessions were used in connection with any of a large number of federal offenses, or purchased with proceeds from those offenses (regardless of whether you were the person allegedly committing the crime or not).  It is then YOUR legal burden to prove that NO ONE (including any estranged spouses, wild children, acquaintances, renters, landlords, or anyone else with whom you are connected) used or purchased that property in connection with the aforementioned federal offenses.  This is especially fun because 1) the sheriff will typically seize your bank account and thus all the money with which you might pay an attorney, and 2) it is a CIVIL proceeding which means you don't get an appointed attorney.

In Michigan, the honey house regs that were promulgated earlier this year were impossible to understand or obey unless you were an attorney AND a commercial size beekeeper.  They required a freestanding building (no kitchens or garages), running water, toilet facilities (NOT the ones in your own house, these had to be attached to the honey house), and (you'll love this) NO INSECTS (have you ever seen a honey house without the bees?)

These are just three quick examples of laws that 1) violate principles of liberty and natural justice, 2) peeve me to no end (and should do the same to everyone else, except maybe your sheriff), and 3) arguably violate the Constitution.  I guarantee there are thousands more that you would disagree with.  They just haven't been applied to you personally.  YET.

The only solution is to starve the beast that makes those laws.  Gov'ts live on laws, money and the complaceny of their citizens.

have a nice day!
beefree

[Rand]

In the words of Fox Mulder ~ "Trust No One". This is so true when applied to those whom some trust so easily. The cops are nothing more than a legalized gang. I'm a biker. I can tell you from personal experience that the only reason that the cops are so adamant about rubbing out the Hells Angels and other motorcycle clubs is that they are tired of competition. That badge they wear provides them with legal protection to violate many of your GOD given rights as a human being. And if you try to stand up for yourself and speak the truth openly, the system will take action. The cops can physically abuse you behind closed doors. The public doesn't care, right. The cops must have had a good reason. Surely they wouldn't do anything like that to an innocent person. The system will brand you as a communist (circa '50s) & throw you in jail; or they plant evidence & stage conspiracies (circa Nov. '63). The law structure in this country is all about the ALMIGHTY DOLLAR! It always has been. Justice has nothing to do with it. My uncle was an Arizona D.O.T. employee cut in half while changing a state truck tire 12 feet off the shoulder of a highway in rural Arizona, by a 19 year old girl who got away with vehicular homicide. You want to know what the Arizona state prosecutor said when we asked why they would not go to Florida to extricate her for an eventual trial? "There is no way for us to recoup the money, and it would not bring (your uncle) back to life." To that I replied "Are you f@#$ing kidding me, you sorry piece of sh!t? She f#@%ing killed a man. You won't do anything about it?! You people are f$%#ed up!"
He said "we're sorry." Then they threw me out for using vulgar language.

Rest in peace Uncle Kenny. Glad you're not having to live in this sorry land anymore.

Sorry if I come off bitter, but we really have lost touch with GOD. The Bible talks about serving God instead of mammen (money). In our so called Christian/religious country we are such hippocrites. Truth, Justice, and The American Way died with the Lone Ranger. The American Way split paths from truth and justice and replaced it with the almighty dollar quite some time ago.

Don't tread on me!

[BigRog]

Once the religious, the hunted and weary
Chasing the promise of freedom and hope
Came to this country to build a new vision
Far from the reaches of kingdom and pope
Like good Christians, some would burn the witches
Later some got slaves to gather riches

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

And once the ties with the crown had been broken
Westward in saddle and wagon it went
And 'til the railroad linked ocean to ocean
Many the lives which had come to an end
While we bullied, stole and bought our a homeland
We began the slaughter of the red man

But still from near and far to seek America
They came by thousands to court the wild
And she just patiently smiled and bore a child
To be their spirit and guiding light

The blue and grey they stomped it
They kicked it just like a dog
And when the war over
They stuffed it just like a hog

And though the past has it's share of injustice
Kind was the spirit in many a way
But it's protectors and friends have been sleeping
Now it's a monster and will not obey

(Suicide)
The spirit was freedom and justice
And it's keepers seem generous and kind
It's leaders were supposed to serve the country
But now they won't pay it no mind
'Cause the people grew fat and got lazy
And now their vote is a meaningless joke
They babble about law and order
But it's all just an echo of what they've been told
Yeah, there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watchin'

Our cities have turned into jungles
And corruption is stranglin' the land
The police force is watching the people
And the people just can't understand
We don't know how to mind our own business
'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us
Now we are fighting a war over there
No matter who's the winner
We can't pay the cost
'Cause there's a monster on the loose
It's got our heads into a noose
And it just sits there watching

(America)
America where are you now?
Don't you care about your sons and daughters?
Don't you know we need you now
We can't fight alone against the monster

[Rand]

Rog,

When you run for pres. I want to be your campaign manager.

Excellent poetry!