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Author Topic: regression  (Read 5867 times)
tillie
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2007, 11:00:51 AM »

Bill Owens who is a commercial Georgia organic beekeeper keeps all of his hive on natural cells:

http://www.owensapiaries.net/

As for the inexperience and problems in the hive, that's what I use this forum for - whenever I have a problem, I post it here first because I deeply value the voice of experience, so without using "chemicals' in my hives, I can find out how to handle best whatever comes up.

Linda T in Atlanta
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kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2007, 11:30:30 AM »

ok guys, i'm not an advocate for chemicals.  i hope i am an advocate for common sense.  if you have a problem, treat it.  if what you are doing works, use it.  before you knock "chemicals" define them.  not all chemicals are created equal.

i have been through this all natural thing with everything from childbirth, to horses.  it always becomes a religion.  i remember women crying when they had to have a c section because they failed at the natural childbirth.  that's nuts.  i have seen horses ruined for life because the owner thought it was cool to not shoe and ride up on these rocky mountains. 

obviously it's best for a child to be born without mom being doped up, or cut open.  sometimes that just doesn't work.  it's nice not to shoe your horse.  i have owned two that never had shoes.  now i own two that can't go in these mountains without.

don't get so stuck on "natural" that common sense goes out the window.  don't get so stuck on it that you discourage people from doing research on what is effective and least harmful, so that when they need to use something they are informed about the decisions they make.

hope that clears up my point  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2007, 12:07:18 PM »

Wonder how the wild horses manage with out man?
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« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2007, 12:29:13 PM »

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Wonder how the wild horses manage with out man?

they die at a much younger age and when they go lame, something eats them  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2007, 12:45:11 PM »


but how tha hell did varoa come here, i mean, why didn't it come before?
i know this is a wild guess but i'd say the story goes something like this:

all bees had varoa-at first, later, only the nowadays most mite resistant bee couldn't get rid of them, the rest of the bee population cleaned it self of all mites, but now that we've started managin bees, we've crated little dents in bees defence system, and varoa population boomed right back!

i may be very wrong, but to this day, i have not seen a scientifical statement on why varoa wasn't present before.
anyone have any better idea?
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reinbeau
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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2007, 05:50:48 PM »

Kathy, please give me some credit.  I have no illusions about natural vs. chemical or what different substances are composed of.  I am an organic gardener, I eat organic food (and pay for it, willingly), and I prefer to keep my bees as organically as possible.  I'm also a realist, and (in case you hadn't noticed) an intelligent, independent conservative thinker.  I can read, and have done so.  So please don't feel the need to educate me.

I just don't like Finsky's snide remarks.  They aren't supportive of the efforts being made here.  As to research, do you not believe Michael Bush?  Kirko?  Dee Lusby? Are they lying?  I don't believe they are.  And I have serious credibility problems with 'research' currently being done on many subjects, bees are only one of them.  I've been to Don's in Lula and have seen the wonderful work he's doing down there on small cell.  He uses essential oils with great success, so do other beeks I've met.  If you want to use miticides, medications and all that then go ahead, no one is going to criticize you for it, it's the way most beeks manage their hives.  There isn't much money to be made in that type of management.....I wonder if that could be a problem for some?  rolleyes  The thought of people succeeding without chemical help seems to send some into a tizzy.  I'm not saying you, I'm talking in general.

This small little subforum is for those of us who are trying to do things without a lot of artificial help.  Where is the harm in that?

And no, I don't drink any soda - diet or otherwise.  Yuck!
 
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2007, 06:07:45 PM »

Quote
Are they lying? 

thats a pretty strong question.  to what end would they lie?

i was not questioning your intelligence.  i applaud the effort to do things naturally.  i think the it will probably be someone experimenting with different ways of doing things that will come up with a solution to the mite problem....or the bees will.  i do not buy small cell as THE solution to mites.  it may be part of the solution.  people have been experimenting with it for some time with less than stellar results.  it did not save the feral bees.  if small cell were the answer, mites ought never to have gotten a foothold in the feral colonies.

if people are using essential oils, like thymol for instance, they are treating for mites.  they must have come to the same conclusion to which the available research has come.  small cell alone will not solve the problem.  i have no reason to question the available research.  are they lying?

i also believe that if MB and kirko, etc. have the ability to keep bees without meds then more power to them.  however, we can not tell how much their weather, cross contamination, etc. has to do with their success. 

i follow this thread so that i can see what people are doing.  it bothers me when i see the cult of organic go into full swing.  that's not necessarily directed at you or anyone in particular.  just my observation of this AM.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
reinbeau
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« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2007, 06:14:45 PM »

I'm not just addressing small cell, I'm talking about the whole thing, the least toxic methods we can use to keep our bees (and ourselves) healthy.  That's what this forum is for, not just small cell (although yes, I realize this thread is about small cell specifically)

However, people who consistently throw stones at efforts in this direction (i.e. Finsky) really shouldn't bother reading or posting here in this subforum.  That's my point.   

Now I'll return this discussion to regression and stop being so off-topic  Lips Sealed
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2007, 09:50:41 PM »

  it did not save the feral bees.  if small cell were the answer, mites ought never to have gotten a foothold in the feral colonies.

Once again.... not all the ferals died out. Not all of the ones that have died did so because of mites. It is possible that some feral colonies were not able to handle the mites at all. Some could have been weakened by other things, like pesticides, and the mites got to them. Some of them could have carried in a very heavy mite load due to robbing out all the other dying colonies and just couldn't handle them.

Now I have gotten feral bees, as have others. As mentioned the cell size is a lot smaller than 5.4. Some as small as 4.7. I have never seen any thing in the feral colonies, not even wax worms which we have a huge problem with in this area. Now I do have wax worms in my hives. Probably because I have given them too much area to handle. I have stressed them I know. I have killed queens while inspecting. What ever problems my bees are having is all my fault. They were in great condition before I tore them out of their home.

   
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abejaruco
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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2007, 01:51:25 AM »


but how tha hell did varoa come here, i mean, why didn't it come before?
i know this is a wild guess but i'd say the story goes something like this:

all bees had varoa-at first, later, only the nowadays most mite resistant bee couldn't get rid of them, the rest of the bee population cleaned it self of all mites, but now that we've started managin bees, we've crated little dents in bees defence system, and varoa population boomed right back!

i may be very wrong, but to this day, i have not seen a scientifical statement on why varoa wasn't present before.
anyone have any better idea?
Why, why, why? That´s the question. grin
Why did not come the Nosema ceranae from China with the varroa? Why any years later, if both were on the Apis ceranae?
Why I never win the lottery?

There are questions really difficult. grin

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Mici
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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2007, 04:42:38 AM »

i'd say a scientist wanted to research varoa, of course somewhere in Europe, so he took one apis ceranae colony and studied it, i guees he was lucky to pick the colony without the Nosema...or...well i don't know Smiley just guessin'
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2007, 09:04:48 AM »

> ...i'm sure it won't hurt to do it.
>... for inexperienced people trying to do the right thing, it may be a real risk to their hives.

In what way?  I've always advocated measuring your success and not taking anything on faith.

>  they won't have the experience to know when they are in trouble.

They will be in trouble if they don't monitor no matter what they do.  Apistan has failed.  Check mite has failed.  Using chemicals is NOT a sure fire way to deal with mites.

>as for chemicals....lemmongrass can be broken down into chemical components.

Citral, Geranyl Acetate, Linalyl Acetate, Geranial, Neral, Limonene, Myrcene, Beta-caryophyllene

But all of these things are also in Nasonov pheromone that the bees make.

>is it a chemical?

Obviously water is a chemical, but in the context of this discussion the term usually means man made chemicals with complex interactions with the biological system.  In other words pesticides or other things that have complex interactions with the biological processes of the target (and often collateral damge to everything else)

> OA, which is put out as a natural treatment for varroa, is a chemical.

Yes.  But a rather simple one in it's effects.  It's a simple organic acid.  And I'm not currently using it.

> thymol is a chemical.

Which is derived from a plant, but would not normally be in a beehive unless gathered from thyme plants.

>do you use sunscreen?  why?

Rarely.

>  drink diet soda?

Never.

>give finskey a break. he's trying too point out that what you choose may have consequences with no proven benefit.

What consequences?

Actually he is belaboring a point in a forum that is dedicated to the concept he is criticizing.  If I get on a Christian forum just to tell them how I disagree with their religion, it's not being helpful, it's being rude.

>people have been experimenting with it for some time with less than stellar results.

Perhaps you could point out who has had less than stellar results. No one I know personally has had less than success.

>  it did not save the feral bees.

Funny, I'd say it's exactly what DID save the feral bees.  I see lots of them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees

>  if small cell were the answer, mites ought never to have gotten a foothold in the feral colonies.

Foothold?  All the hives in North America have Varroa.  The question is can the bees survive?
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Mici
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« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2007, 09:48:15 AM »

ok so..small cells...
naturally smaller cells are in the middle of the brood nest- where winter bees are bred, when the brood nest expands, when the drone population increases, so does the number of mites, so it's normal to have mites during summer, but when winter approaches, their numbers go down, right? drones are evicted, brood nest shrimps to the center-where varoa can't reproduce.

i think that there are numerous factors about wild bee dissaperance. in the past 40-30 years a lot of harsh chemicals have been used A LOT, that's why...for instance many of birds just dissapeard. hawks and stuff like that, main cause? DDT!!!! now, they're slowly coming back, their numbers have increased in the last 20 years..maybe by 5x.
i think the bees weren't much better of, not to mention, CHAINSAW!!!!
there are some feral bees being spotted around here, but really only few, but those that are..are there for years!
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2007, 09:11:31 PM »

Very interesting thread.  I go for natural beekeeping.  By that I mean I let the bees be bees.

I don't hit them with manmade chemicals nor do I use other "commercial" means to artifically foster my bees.  I feed only when absolutely necessary and then very little--I limit to a gallon. 
With natural beekeeping the bees build the type of comb they need; small cell worker comb, intermmediate sized storage comb, and drone comb.   They build as much of each type as they need. 

I had to start over this year due to wind damage that killed off the hives I had and destroyed the comb and many frames.  As the bees build up their hive I will rotate the new comb built this year into honey supers next year, and will do the same thing next year.  That is both "regressing" and "refreshing" the the comb in the brood chamber.   

I use utilize several methods that confound traditional beekeepers: my own design of slatted rack, screened bottom board (w/o trays), top entrances, 8 frame medium for everything except nucs which are 5 frame mediums, and a 2nd Slatted rack instead of queen excluders.  I limit my feeding to 1 gallon per hive when feeding is warrented. 

From past experience I will expect to have healthy bees, little varroa problems (which I will treat with sugar shakes), have had excellent honey harvests, and large over wintering clusters.

Whether you want to call that small cell, organic, or natural is immaterial, but my methods have proven successful for me so I use them.  I have spent my beekeeping time trying to find out what works best yet produces the most yield per hive with the least amount of intervention.  I also never expect a harvest the 1st year because I feed very little, I let the bees build the hive. It might take longer but have found the hive has better vitality because of it.   
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