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Author Topic: regression  (Read 5562 times)
Mici
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« on: May 10, 2007, 06:22:01 PM »

ok, finally i have found a topic in which even SC beeks do not completely agree, HaHa!
do bees need regression or not? i've read it both, or should i say all three sides, that is:
-it doesn't help anyway
-regression is not neede, they can buil 4,7 in the first try, thus building sub-cast worker cells of all dimension
-without a few years of work on regression, all effort is in vain


which one is it now?
i know that finsky would go for the first one rolleyes
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 06:32:37 PM »

so far, the research does not support regression as a way of controlling varroa mites.  most of the studies have been relatively small, and not done over a long period of time.  finsky listed some earlier, and i have read what i could find.  you can find most by googling it.  it does no harm that i could find and i can see how doing something like using starter strips would save money on foundation.  that's a good reason for trying it.  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 06:36:18 PM »

No NO, if you use starter strips you get ugly comb, full of drone cells thus full of drone who are ugly and do nothing but eat honey, so although you have to buy foundation you save money throu honey grin
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 07:15:20 PM »

No NO, if you use starter strips you get ugly comb, full of drone cells thus full of drone who are ugly and do nothing but eat honey, so although you have to buy foundation you save money throu honey grin

Not true. Starter strips can result in drone , brood , or honey structure depending on what the bees feel they need. The number of drones in a hive is pretty constant.

Also bee regression is a process by which you bring bees back to their natural size. As far as dealing with varroa. In my experience it does help.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 07:28:00 PM »

>-it doesn't help anyway
>-regression is not neede, they can buil 4,7 in the first try, thus building sub-cast worker cells of all dimension
>-without a few years of work on regression, all effort is in vain

The answer, of course, is both.  I have seen SOME large cell package bees draw 4.7mm right out of the box and some won't until they have been regressed.

Maybe it's genetics.  Maybe the packages that draw it ARE partially regressed because they were on Pierco (5.2mm or so) or they were on Mann Lake PF100s (4.95mm).

Did you think you could do the same thing and get all the bees to react the same to it?



which one is it now?
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Michael Bush
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Mici
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2007, 02:55:04 AM »

understudy, it was just sarkasm. hehe, i'm using starter strips and they draw a few so perfectly i can't believe it!

so michael, what you are saying is..while i might get a colony regressed in first step-with the first set of starter strips, another one just might build big cells for years to come? so i have to check them up?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n29/Mici_02/Cebele-bees/Cebele_bees/DSCF2075.jpg
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2007, 11:59:53 PM »

>so michael, what you are saying is..while i might get a colony regressed in first step-with the first set of starter strips, another one just might build big cells for years to come?

Years?  Maybe two at the most.  More likely one.

> so i have to check them up?

You shouldn't trust that the Varroa issue is under control until you have the core of the brood nest down to 4.9mm or smaller and your mite counts have dropped to insignificant.  Then you probably don't need to worry about Varroa anymore.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 03:35:41 AM »

well, i see that i have lot's of varoae! last time when i preped the drone larvae for dinner-they were just at the stage when getting capped. and there was really LOT'S of varoa! i'd say at least a hundred of them, but what's even more interesting, the ones that had varoa, had it BIG, like 3 at a time, but this isn't the interesting part, the interesting is that i'd say...roughly 80% of the varoa inside the cells were already dead! shocked now, i don't know why but..acids have a prolonged efficiency, i mean results can be seen only in few weeks? maybe that Etanoy/acetic acid thing really works?
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Finsky
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 03:31:52 PM »

The number of drones in a hive is pretty constant.


That is pure nonsence.

Everyone who nurses bees can see that number of drones varies according you give them free space to draw dronecombs.

You really have energy to grinds you varroas  grin It fills whole life!

Here it is written that number of dones depends greatly  how bees get pollen.
Even if you have frowers on pastures, bad weathers hinders foraging. Long drought is wery bad. It needs a lot of raining that frowers start to bottom again. Wet weather can stop to morrow and flowers are ready to give pollen.

.
.
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2007, 06:29:26 PM »

So, The first thing I noticed about my Easter Swarm was how small the bees were. What goes here.
The closest beekeeper to me is about twelve miles. I don't know what he has. The next thing, we do have ferrel/wild colonies in my area. Last and not least. I have one colony that has old-old comb. Back to that in a minute. Is it true that the cells become smaller as more bees are hatched?
Back to old comb colony. I am not sure if the swarm came from this colony or not. The colony was very- very large with bees. The swarm was large. After I got the swarm I noticed the colony didn't look as crowded. and the bees look about the same size. Only about two thirds the size of all my other colonies.
I am sure they're not AFB's. Not aggressive enough.
What say ye?
doak
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Mici
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 06:48:07 PM »

mostly i'm only going to tell you what other people say, most of data is not validated so..maybe you shouldn't believe everything i say.

smaller cell size bees are survivors, they can beat varoa, that's why they can live in the wild ("normal" cells are 5.4mm small cell are 4.9mm, natural comb varies in size, but it's the small cell size that enables it to fight varoa)

yes, cell walls get smaller throu generations of bees, each bee leaves a little residue of cocoon, so the walls thicken-harden and the cells get smaller.
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 06:58:31 PM »

Thanks I needed that.
doak
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2007, 09:20:08 PM »

>That is pure nonsence.

I have previously cited a peer reviewed study by two esteemed entomologists and you call it "pure nonsence".  We have now firmly established that you only believe in research that agrees with your preconceived ideas.

>So, The first thing I noticed about my Easter Swarm was how small the bees were. What goes here.

That's what I find on feral swarms.

>The closest beekeeper to me is about twelve miles. I don't know what he has. The next thing, we do have ferrel/wild colonies in my area.

No you don't.  Wink  Just ask Finsky, they are all dead.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees

>Last and not least. I have one colony that has old-old comb. Back to that in a minute. Is it true that the cells become smaller as more bees are hatched?

Yes.  Until it reaches the threshold that the bees will find too small and then they chew them out.  On 5.4mm foundation this threshold is many years of accumulation.

>I am sure they're not AFB's. Not aggressive enough.

As far as I know you don't have AFB in GA anyway, do you?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2007, 10:30:43 PM »


>I am sure they're not AFB's. Not aggressive enough.

As far as I know you don't have AFB in GA anyway, do you?

Georgia is not an AHB positive location........yet.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2007, 11:04:02 PM »

Jamie Ellis says there are swarm traps all along the Ga border to catch the AHB as it tries to cross!  I'll bet that will be as effective as that stupid fence Bush wants to use our tax dollars to put between Mexico and the US!

 grin  Linda T in  Atlanta
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2007, 11:52:03 PM »

mostly i'm only going to tell you what other people say, most of data is not validated so..maybe you shouldn't believe everything i say.

smaller cell size bees are survivors, they can beat varoa, that's why they can live in the wild .

Mici, cool your self! You are like delivering information, but you just take those rumours from sky. Varroa is not cells size question at all. If you look South Africa bees in the wild, they have "small cells" but they are mostly dead. Africanized bee is only winner but still it is sometimes full of varroa.

As far as I know, there are no varroa resistant bee stock in Europe or in Slovenia.

You misslead people talking abot data, validity and other cool stuff. Just awfull your style.
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2007, 04:00:30 AM »

mostly i'm only going to tell you what other people say, most of data is not validated so..maybe you shouldn't believe everything i say.


see? i explained the stuff wasn't tried out by me, nor do scientist approve it, and i also added he should not believe it.
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2007, 09:33:27 AM »

Finsky, I have to say this:  You don't believe in Natural or Organic Beekeeping, so why are you even bothering with this particular subforum?  If all you want to do is irritate, then you're just wasting everyone's time.  Don't delude yourself into thinking you're educating anyone.  We're here to share our methods and learn, not to debate them.  We've already decided to give this a try, and from what I've read on this forum and over on Beesource, many people have had success with it.  No matter how many studies you cite (sponsored by whom??!?), you're not going to change the minds of those who want to get away from chemicals.
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2007, 10:17:13 AM »

reinbeau, i think the idea of getting away from chemicals is great.  define chemical? 

finskey is right.  there is no research to back up small cell.  i'm sure it won't hurt to do it.  my problem with the small cell advocates is that it's almost like a religion (like most 'natural' things become) and for inexperienced people trying to do the right thing, it may be a real risk to their hives.  they won't have the experience to know when they are in trouble.

as for chemicals....lemmongrass can be broken down into chemical components.  is it a chemical?  OA, which is put out as a natural treatment for varroa, is a chemical.  thymol is a chemical.  the trick is to find things that work and are not harmful.

do you use sunscreen?  why?  drink diet soda?  you use chemicals probably every day because the benefit out weighs the risk.

you weigh the risk to your hive.  do what you want to do and what you can afford to do.  give finskey a break. he's trying too point out that what you choose may have consequences with no proven benefit.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 10:52:29 AM »

my problem with the small cell advocates is that it's almost like a religion (like most 'natural' things become) and for inexperienced people trying to do the right thing, it may be a real risk to their hives.  they won't have the experience to know when they are in trouble.

Seems to me the "treatment" people are the religious folks. Let us look at the "inexperienced" folks. Those that won't know when they are in trouble. If they know so little then how will they know what treatment to use, when to use it, and for how long. How will they know to do it with or with out brood or honey supers on? You can still wipe out your bees. Only thing is you spent more funds on the method you used to kill them.

I really don't understand what is so hard to figure out about the natural bee thing. If you let the bees do it......LONG ENOUGH..... they will build small cells. I have some as small as 4.7 that I have cut out of walls. IF people are putting bees on cells that are an unnatural size, causing an unnaturally longer period to get capped and uncapped, causing bees to be unnaturally large, how can anyone not see that this could cause problems? Sure the unnatural size has been around awhile and for awhile everything was fine.

Like dumping toxic waste into a pond. Every thing will seem fine for awhile but then two headed frogs start showing up. Can't be the toxic waste doing that, it's been there all these years with no problem. SO pour in something else to stop two headed frog births and later down the line we get centipede trout. Can't be nothing we done before because it was done years ago and this just showed up.

It is said that the varroa mite jumped species just recently. Could it have done that because of the manipulation of bees. Something caused the bees to become attractive to the mites. Could it bee that what man has done to the bees has led up to CCD. And now they will find what ever that is and they will come up with some sort of treatment for it, and then something else will come along.....

Some one post an article that mentions that natural/organic beeks are not having trouble with CCD. And before anyone says it, Some of these folks are commercial beekeepers. 

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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2007, 11:00:51 AM »

Bill Owens who is a commercial Georgia organic beekeeper keeps all of his hive on natural cells:

http://www.owensapiaries.net/

As for the inexperience and problems in the hive, that's what I use this forum for - whenever I have a problem, I post it here first because I deeply value the voice of experience, so without using "chemicals' in my hives, I can find out how to handle best whatever comes up.

Linda T in Atlanta
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2007, 11:30:30 AM »

ok guys, i'm not an advocate for chemicals.  i hope i am an advocate for common sense.  if you have a problem, treat it.  if what you are doing works, use it.  before you knock "chemicals" define them.  not all chemicals are created equal.

i have been through this all natural thing with everything from childbirth, to horses.  it always becomes a religion.  i remember women crying when they had to have a c section because they failed at the natural childbirth.  that's nuts.  i have seen horses ruined for life because the owner thought it was cool to not shoe and ride up on these rocky mountains. 

obviously it's best for a child to be born without mom being doped up, or cut open.  sometimes that just doesn't work.  it's nice not to shoe your horse.  i have owned two that never had shoes.  now i own two that can't go in these mountains without.

don't get so stuck on "natural" that common sense goes out the window.  don't get so stuck on it that you discourage people from doing research on what is effective and least harmful, so that when they need to use something they are informed about the decisions they make.

hope that clears up my point  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2007, 12:07:18 PM »

Wonder how the wild horses manage with out man?
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« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2007, 12:29:13 PM »

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Wonder how the wild horses manage with out man?

they die at a much younger age and when they go lame, something eats them  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2007, 12:45:11 PM »


but how tha hell did varoa come here, i mean, why didn't it come before?
i know this is a wild guess but i'd say the story goes something like this:

all bees had varoa-at first, later, only the nowadays most mite resistant bee couldn't get rid of them, the rest of the bee population cleaned it self of all mites, but now that we've started managin bees, we've crated little dents in bees defence system, and varoa population boomed right back!

i may be very wrong, but to this day, i have not seen a scientifical statement on why varoa wasn't present before.
anyone have any better idea?
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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2007, 05:50:48 PM »

Kathy, please give me some credit.  I have no illusions about natural vs. chemical or what different substances are composed of.  I am an organic gardener, I eat organic food (and pay for it, willingly), and I prefer to keep my bees as organically as possible.  I'm also a realist, and (in case you hadn't noticed) an intelligent, independent conservative thinker.  I can read, and have done so.  So please don't feel the need to educate me.

I just don't like Finsky's snide remarks.  They aren't supportive of the efforts being made here.  As to research, do you not believe Michael Bush?  Kirko?  Dee Lusby? Are they lying?  I don't believe they are.  And I have serious credibility problems with 'research' currently being done on many subjects, bees are only one of them.  I've been to Don's in Lula and have seen the wonderful work he's doing down there on small cell.  He uses essential oils with great success, so do other beeks I've met.  If you want to use miticides, medications and all that then go ahead, no one is going to criticize you for it, it's the way most beeks manage their hives.  There isn't much money to be made in that type of management.....I wonder if that could be a problem for some?  rolleyes  The thought of people succeeding without chemical help seems to send some into a tizzy.  I'm not saying you, I'm talking in general.

This small little subforum is for those of us who are trying to do things without a lot of artificial help.  Where is the harm in that?

And no, I don't drink any soda - diet or otherwise.  Yuck!
 
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« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2007, 06:07:45 PM »

Quote
Are they lying? 

thats a pretty strong question.  to what end would they lie?

i was not questioning your intelligence.  i applaud the effort to do things naturally.  i think the it will probably be someone experimenting with different ways of doing things that will come up with a solution to the mite problem....or the bees will.  i do not buy small cell as THE solution to mites.  it may be part of the solution.  people have been experimenting with it for some time with less than stellar results.  it did not save the feral bees.  if small cell were the answer, mites ought never to have gotten a foothold in the feral colonies.

if people are using essential oils, like thymol for instance, they are treating for mites.  they must have come to the same conclusion to which the available research has come.  small cell alone will not solve the problem.  i have no reason to question the available research.  are they lying?

i also believe that if MB and kirko, etc. have the ability to keep bees without meds then more power to them.  however, we can not tell how much their weather, cross contamination, etc. has to do with their success. 

i follow this thread so that i can see what people are doing.  it bothers me when i see the cult of organic go into full swing.  that's not necessarily directed at you or anyone in particular.  just my observation of this AM.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2007, 06:14:45 PM »

I'm not just addressing small cell, I'm talking about the whole thing, the least toxic methods we can use to keep our bees (and ourselves) healthy.  That's what this forum is for, not just small cell (although yes, I realize this thread is about small cell specifically)

However, people who consistently throw stones at efforts in this direction (i.e. Finsky) really shouldn't bother reading or posting here in this subforum.  That's my point.   

Now I'll return this discussion to regression and stop being so off-topic  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2007, 09:50:41 PM »

  it did not save the feral bees.  if small cell were the answer, mites ought never to have gotten a foothold in the feral colonies.

Once again.... not all the ferals died out. Not all of the ones that have died did so because of mites. It is possible that some feral colonies were not able to handle the mites at all. Some could have been weakened by other things, like pesticides, and the mites got to them. Some of them could have carried in a very heavy mite load due to robbing out all the other dying colonies and just couldn't handle them.

Now I have gotten feral bees, as have others. As mentioned the cell size is a lot smaller than 5.4. Some as small as 4.7. I have never seen any thing in the feral colonies, not even wax worms which we have a huge problem with in this area. Now I do have wax worms in my hives. Probably because I have given them too much area to handle. I have stressed them I know. I have killed queens while inspecting. What ever problems my bees are having is all my fault. They were in great condition before I tore them out of their home.

   
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abejaruco
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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2007, 01:51:25 AM »


but how tha hell did varoa come here, i mean, why didn't it come before?
i know this is a wild guess but i'd say the story goes something like this:

all bees had varoa-at first, later, only the nowadays most mite resistant bee couldn't get rid of them, the rest of the bee population cleaned it self of all mites, but now that we've started managin bees, we've crated little dents in bees defence system, and varoa population boomed right back!

i may be very wrong, but to this day, i have not seen a scientifical statement on why varoa wasn't present before.
anyone have any better idea?
Why, why, why? That´s the question. grin
Why did not come the Nosema ceranae from China with the varroa? Why any years later, if both were on the Apis ceranae?
Why I never win the lottery?

There are questions really difficult. grin

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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2007, 04:42:38 AM »

i'd say a scientist wanted to research varoa, of course somewhere in Europe, so he took one apis ceranae colony and studied it, i guees he was lucky to pick the colony without the Nosema...or...well i don't know Smiley just guessin'
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2007, 09:04:48 AM »

> ...i'm sure it won't hurt to do it.
>... for inexperienced people trying to do the right thing, it may be a real risk to their hives.

In what way?  I've always advocated measuring your success and not taking anything on faith.

>  they won't have the experience to know when they are in trouble.

They will be in trouble if they don't monitor no matter what they do.  Apistan has failed.  Check mite has failed.  Using chemicals is NOT a sure fire way to deal with mites.

>as for chemicals....lemmongrass can be broken down into chemical components.

Citral, Geranyl Acetate, Linalyl Acetate, Geranial, Neral, Limonene, Myrcene, Beta-caryophyllene

But all of these things are also in Nasonov pheromone that the bees make.

>is it a chemical?

Obviously water is a chemical, but in the context of this discussion the term usually means man made chemicals with complex interactions with the biological system.  In other words pesticides or other things that have complex interactions with the biological processes of the target (and often collateral damge to everything else)

> OA, which is put out as a natural treatment for varroa, is a chemical.

Yes.  But a rather simple one in it's effects.  It's a simple organic acid.  And I'm not currently using it.

> thymol is a chemical.

Which is derived from a plant, but would not normally be in a beehive unless gathered from thyme plants.

>do you use sunscreen?  why?

Rarely.

>  drink diet soda?

Never.

>give finskey a break. he's trying too point out that what you choose may have consequences with no proven benefit.

What consequences?

Actually he is belaboring a point in a forum that is dedicated to the concept he is criticizing.  If I get on a Christian forum just to tell them how I disagree with their religion, it's not being helpful, it's being rude.

>people have been experimenting with it for some time with less than stellar results.

Perhaps you could point out who has had less than stellar results. No one I know personally has had less than success.

>  it did not save the feral bees.

Funny, I'd say it's exactly what DID save the feral bees.  I see lots of them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees

>  if small cell were the answer, mites ought never to have gotten a foothold in the feral colonies.

Foothold?  All the hives in North America have Varroa.  The question is can the bees survive?
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« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2007, 09:48:15 AM »

ok so..small cells...
naturally smaller cells are in the middle of the brood nest- where winter bees are bred, when the brood nest expands, when the drone population increases, so does the number of mites, so it's normal to have mites during summer, but when winter approaches, their numbers go down, right? drones are evicted, brood nest shrimps to the center-where varoa can't reproduce.

i think that there are numerous factors about wild bee dissaperance. in the past 40-30 years a lot of harsh chemicals have been used A LOT, that's why...for instance many of birds just dissapeard. hawks and stuff like that, main cause? DDT!!!! now, they're slowly coming back, their numbers have increased in the last 20 years..maybe by 5x.
i think the bees weren't much better of, not to mention, CHAINSAW!!!!
there are some feral bees being spotted around here, but really only few, but those that are..are there for years!
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2007, 09:11:31 PM »

Very interesting thread.  I go for natural beekeeping.  By that I mean I let the bees be bees.

I don't hit them with manmade chemicals nor do I use other "commercial" means to artifically foster my bees.  I feed only when absolutely necessary and then very little--I limit to a gallon. 
With natural beekeeping the bees build the type of comb they need; small cell worker comb, intermmediate sized storage comb, and drone comb.   They build as much of each type as they need. 

I had to start over this year due to wind damage that killed off the hives I had and destroyed the comb and many frames.  As the bees build up their hive I will rotate the new comb built this year into honey supers next year, and will do the same thing next year.  That is both "regressing" and "refreshing" the the comb in the brood chamber.   

I use utilize several methods that confound traditional beekeepers: my own design of slatted rack, screened bottom board (w/o trays), top entrances, 8 frame medium for everything except nucs which are 5 frame mediums, and a 2nd Slatted rack instead of queen excluders.  I limit my feeding to 1 gallon per hive when feeding is warrented. 

From past experience I will expect to have healthy bees, little varroa problems (which I will treat with sugar shakes), have had excellent honey harvests, and large over wintering clusters.

Whether you want to call that small cell, organic, or natural is immaterial, but my methods have proven successful for me so I use them.  I have spent my beekeeping time trying to find out what works best yet produces the most yield per hive with the least amount of intervention.  I also never expect a harvest the 1st year because I feed very little, I let the bees build the hive. It might take longer but have found the hive has better vitality because of it.   
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