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Author Topic: regression  (Read 5691 times)
Mici
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« on: May 10, 2007, 06:22:01 PM »

ok, finally i have found a topic in which even SC beeks do not completely agree, HaHa!
do bees need regression or not? i've read it both, or should i say all three sides, that is:
-it doesn't help anyway
-regression is not neede, they can buil 4,7 in the first try, thus building sub-cast worker cells of all dimension
-without a few years of work on regression, all effort is in vain


which one is it now?
i know that finsky would go for the first one rolleyes
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 06:32:37 PM »

so far, the research does not support regression as a way of controlling varroa mites.  most of the studies have been relatively small, and not done over a long period of time.  finsky listed some earlier, and i have read what i could find.  you can find most by googling it.  it does no harm that i could find and i can see how doing something like using starter strips would save money on foundation.  that's a good reason for trying it.  smiley
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Mici
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 06:36:18 PM »

No NO, if you use starter strips you get ugly comb, full of drone cells thus full of drone who are ugly and do nothing but eat honey, so although you have to buy foundation you save money throu honey grin
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Understudy
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 07:15:20 PM »

No NO, if you use starter strips you get ugly comb, full of drone cells thus full of drone who are ugly and do nothing but eat honey, so although you have to buy foundation you save money throu honey grin

Not true. Starter strips can result in drone , brood , or honey structure depending on what the bees feel they need. The number of drones in a hive is pretty constant.

Also bee regression is a process by which you bring bees back to their natural size. As far as dealing with varroa. In my experience it does help.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 07:28:00 PM »

>-it doesn't help anyway
>-regression is not neede, they can buil 4,7 in the first try, thus building sub-cast worker cells of all dimension
>-without a few years of work on regression, all effort is in vain

The answer, of course, is both.  I have seen SOME large cell package bees draw 4.7mm right out of the box and some won't until they have been regressed.

Maybe it's genetics.  Maybe the packages that draw it ARE partially regressed because they were on Pierco (5.2mm or so) or they were on Mann Lake PF100s (4.95mm).

Did you think you could do the same thing and get all the bees to react the same to it?



which one is it now?
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Michael Bush
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Mici
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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2007, 02:55:04 AM »

understudy, it was just sarkasm. hehe, i'm using starter strips and they draw a few so perfectly i can't believe it!

so michael, what you are saying is..while i might get a colony regressed in first step-with the first set of starter strips, another one just might build big cells for years to come? so i have to check them up?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n29/Mici_02/Cebele-bees/Cebele_bees/DSCF2075.jpg
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2007, 11:59:53 PM »

>so michael, what you are saying is..while i might get a colony regressed in first step-with the first set of starter strips, another one just might build big cells for years to come?

Years?  Maybe two at the most.  More likely one.

> so i have to check them up?

You shouldn't trust that the Varroa issue is under control until you have the core of the brood nest down to 4.9mm or smaller and your mite counts have dropped to insignificant.  Then you probably don't need to worry about Varroa anymore.
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Michael Bush
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Mici
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 03:35:41 AM »

well, i see that i have lot's of varoae! last time when i preped the drone larvae for dinner-they were just at the stage when getting capped. and there was really LOT'S of varoa! i'd say at least a hundred of them, but what's even more interesting, the ones that had varoa, had it BIG, like 3 at a time, but this isn't the interesting part, the interesting is that i'd say...roughly 80% of the varoa inside the cells were already dead! shocked now, i don't know why but..acids have a prolonged efficiency, i mean results can be seen only in few weeks? maybe that Etanoy/acetic acid thing really works?
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Finsky
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2007, 03:31:52 PM »

The number of drones in a hive is pretty constant.


That is pure nonsence.

Everyone who nurses bees can see that number of drones varies according you give them free space to draw dronecombs.

You really have energy to grinds you varroas  grin It fills whole life!

Here it is written that number of dones depends greatly  how bees get pollen.
Even if you have frowers on pastures, bad weathers hinders foraging. Long drought is wery bad. It needs a lot of raining that frowers start to bottom again. Wet weather can stop to morrow and flowers are ready to give pollen.

.
.
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doak
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2007, 06:29:26 PM »

So, The first thing I noticed about my Easter Swarm was how small the bees were. What goes here.
The closest beekeeper to me is about twelve miles. I don't know what he has. The next thing, we do have ferrel/wild colonies in my area. Last and not least. I have one colony that has old-old comb. Back to that in a minute. Is it true that the cells become smaller as more bees are hatched?
Back to old comb colony. I am not sure if the swarm came from this colony or not. The colony was very- very large with bees. The swarm was large. After I got the swarm I noticed the colony didn't look as crowded. and the bees look about the same size. Only about two thirds the size of all my other colonies.
I am sure they're not AFB's. Not aggressive enough.
What say ye?
doak
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Mici
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 06:48:07 PM »

mostly i'm only going to tell you what other people say, most of data is not validated so..maybe you shouldn't believe everything i say.

smaller cell size bees are survivors, they can beat varoa, that's why they can live in the wild ("normal" cells are 5.4mm small cell are 4.9mm, natural comb varies in size, but it's the small cell size that enables it to fight varoa)

yes, cell walls get smaller throu generations of bees, each bee leaves a little residue of cocoon, so the walls thicken-harden and the cells get smaller.
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doak
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 06:58:31 PM »

Thanks I needed that.
doak
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2007, 09:20:08 PM »

>That is pure nonsence.

I have previously cited a peer reviewed study by two esteemed entomologists and you call it "pure nonsence".  We have now firmly established that you only believe in research that agrees with your preconceived ideas.

>So, The first thing I noticed about my Easter Swarm was how small the bees were. What goes here.

That's what I find on feral swarms.

>The closest beekeeper to me is about twelve miles. I don't know what he has. The next thing, we do have ferrel/wild colonies in my area.

No you don't.  Wink  Just ask Finsky, they are all dead.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees

>Last and not least. I have one colony that has old-old comb. Back to that in a minute. Is it true that the cells become smaller as more bees are hatched?

Yes.  Until it reaches the threshold that the bees will find too small and then they chew them out.  On 5.4mm foundation this threshold is many years of accumulation.

>I am sure they're not AFB's. Not aggressive enough.

As far as I know you don't have AFB in GA anyway, do you?
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2007, 10:30:43 PM »


>I am sure they're not AFB's. Not aggressive enough.

As far as I know you don't have AFB in GA anyway, do you?

Georgia is not an AHB positive location........yet.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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tillie
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2007, 11:04:02 PM »

Jamie Ellis says there are swarm traps all along the Ga border to catch the AHB as it tries to cross!  I'll bet that will be as effective as that stupid fence Bush wants to use our tax dollars to put between Mexico and the US!

 grin  Linda T in  Atlanta
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Finsky
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2007, 11:52:03 PM »

mostly i'm only going to tell you what other people say, most of data is not validated so..maybe you shouldn't believe everything i say.

smaller cell size bees are survivors, they can beat varoa, that's why they can live in the wild .

Mici, cool your self! You are like delivering information, but you just take those rumours from sky. Varroa is not cells size question at all. If you look South Africa bees in the wild, they have "small cells" but they are mostly dead. Africanized bee is only winner but still it is sometimes full of varroa.

As far as I know, there are no varroa resistant bee stock in Europe or in Slovenia.

You misslead people talking abot data, validity and other cool stuff. Just awfull your style.
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Mici
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2007, 04:00:30 AM »

mostly i'm only going to tell you what other people say, most of data is not validated so..maybe you shouldn't believe everything i say.


see? i explained the stuff wasn't tried out by me, nor do scientist approve it, and i also added he should not believe it.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2007, 09:33:27 AM »

Finsky, I have to say this:  You don't believe in Natural or Organic Beekeeping, so why are you even bothering with this particular subforum?  If all you want to do is irritate, then you're just wasting everyone's time.  Don't delude yourself into thinking you're educating anyone.  We're here to share our methods and learn, not to debate them.  We've already decided to give this a try, and from what I've read on this forum and over on Beesource, many people have had success with it.  No matter how many studies you cite (sponsored by whom??!?), you're not going to change the minds of those who want to get away from chemicals.
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2007, 10:17:13 AM »

reinbeau, i think the idea of getting away from chemicals is great.  define chemical? 

finskey is right.  there is no research to back up small cell.  i'm sure it won't hurt to do it.  my problem with the small cell advocates is that it's almost like a religion (like most 'natural' things become) and for inexperienced people trying to do the right thing, it may be a real risk to their hives.  they won't have the experience to know when they are in trouble.

as for chemicals....lemmongrass can be broken down into chemical components.  is it a chemical?  OA, which is put out as a natural treatment for varroa, is a chemical.  thymol is a chemical.  the trick is to find things that work and are not harmful.

do you use sunscreen?  why?  drink diet soda?  you use chemicals probably every day because the benefit out weighs the risk.

you weigh the risk to your hive.  do what you want to do and what you can afford to do.  give finskey a break. he's trying too point out that what you choose may have consequences with no proven benefit.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2007, 10:52:29 AM »

my problem with the small cell advocates is that it's almost like a religion (like most 'natural' things become) and for inexperienced people trying to do the right thing, it may be a real risk to their hives.  they won't have the experience to know when they are in trouble.

Seems to me the "treatment" people are the religious folks. Let us look at the "inexperienced" folks. Those that won't know when they are in trouble. If they know so little then how will they know what treatment to use, when to use it, and for how long. How will they know to do it with or with out brood or honey supers on? You can still wipe out your bees. Only thing is you spent more funds on the method you used to kill them.

I really don't understand what is so hard to figure out about the natural bee thing. If you let the bees do it......LONG ENOUGH..... they will build small cells. I have some as small as 4.7 that I have cut out of walls. IF people are putting bees on cells that are an unnatural size, causing an unnaturally longer period to get capped and uncapped, causing bees to be unnaturally large, how can anyone not see that this could cause problems? Sure the unnatural size has been around awhile and for awhile everything was fine.

Like dumping toxic waste into a pond. Every thing will seem fine for awhile but then two headed frogs start showing up. Can't be the toxic waste doing that, it's been there all these years with no problem. SO pour in something else to stop two headed frog births and later down the line we get centipede trout. Can't be nothing we done before because it was done years ago and this just showed up.

It is said that the varroa mite jumped species just recently. Could it have done that because of the manipulation of bees. Something caused the bees to become attractive to the mites. Could it bee that what man has done to the bees has led up to CCD. And now they will find what ever that is and they will come up with some sort of treatment for it, and then something else will come along.....

Some one post an article that mentions that natural/organic beeks are not having trouble with CCD. And before anyone says it, Some of these folks are commercial beekeepers. 

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