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kathyp
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« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2007, 02:06:11 PM »

the only way to use a credit card is to have one that has no annual fee, gives you cash back, and pay it in full every month.  if you do that, you can actually make money on the credit card.  i have interest checking and pay my card in full each month.  that means that i get to use the credit cards money for free and earn money on my account,  until the bill comes.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2007, 02:30:51 PM »

the only way to use a credit card is to have one that has no annual fee, gives you cash back, and pay it in full every month.  if you do that, you can actually make money on the credit card.  i have interest checking and pay my card in full each month.  that means that i get to use the credit cards money for free and earn money on my account,  until the bill comes.

Your smart.  Most folks aren't.
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If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2007, 02:47:58 PM »

Has anyone noticed that the price of a gallon of milk has risen about 20% in the last 6 months?   How about the prices of groceries going up lately?  Not a word do we hear about that.

Since everything is shipped by trucks then yes the price is going to go up. Since the price of corn went up because of ethanol fuels all meat and dairy is going to rise. It is still the fault of high fuel prices.
   
The amount of people driving on this Memorial Day weekend was up about 2.00% from last year.  I have no sympathy for people who cry about the price of fuel and then use it no differently then they ever have.

But even though there were more people on the road I heard the average trip was a lot shorter. It all depends on the message one is trying to get across.

Now I really get tired of things being compared from country to country. This isn't Europe or Asia or Africa. This is America. In a five day week to get just from work and back home is 120 miles. That is straight to work and straight home. Then there are the days one needs to run around and do things, buy things. It is 150 mile trip to see my mother. I don't get to see her much these days. Because of life style a little bitty tinny car just won't cut it. But if the price keeps going up I could probably buy another vehicle that is fuel efficient and be able to pay for it from the savings on gas for the times I really don't need the bigger vehicle.
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Mklangelo
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« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2007, 03:10:23 PM »

Has anyone noticed that the price of a gallon of milk has risen about 20% in the last 6 months?   How about the prices of groceries going up lately?  Not a word do we hear about that.

Since everything is shipped by trucks then yes the price is going to go up. Since the price of corn went up because of ethanol fuels all meat and dairy is going to rise. It is still the fault of high fuel prices.
   
The amount of people driving on this Memorial Day weekend was up about 2.00% from last year.  I have no sympathy for people who cry about the price of fuel and then use it no differently then they ever have.


But even though there were more people on the road I heard the average trip was a lot shorter. It all depends on the message one is trying to get across.

Now I really get tired of things being compared from country to country. This isn't Europe or Asia or Africa. This is America. In a five day week to get just from work and back home is 120 miles. That is straight to work and straight home. Then there are the days one needs to run around and do things, buy things. It is 150 mile trip to see my mother. I don't get to see her much these days. Because of life style a little bitty tinny car just won't cut it. But if the price keeps going up I could probably buy another vehicle that is fuel efficient and be able to pay for it from the savings on gas for the times I really don't need the bigger vehicle.

That to me doesn't sound like frivolous driving Jerrymac.   About the fuel affecting the prices, yea, the 18 wheelers are the backbone of the economy.  When those stop, so does everything else.  Kind of like the Honeybees of the economy, if you will.

Don't even get me started on Ethanol.  If you believe that the simplest idea tends to be the most truthful one, than we have made a big mistake with using food for fuel.  Corn is a staple for alot of people all over the world and we are taking an awful lot of it out the the food market and putting it into the fuel market.  Corn farmers are actually able to raise prices for the first time in years.  Hooray for the Corn Farmer, but too bad the the poor guy in Mexico City who now has to pay almost one days wages for a stinking' tortilla...
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<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniStates_both/language/www/US/WI/Milwaukee.gif
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alt="Click for Milwaukee, Wisconsin Forecast" height=100 width=150>[/url]

If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside.
  - Robert X. Cringely
reinbeau
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« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2007, 03:46:09 PM »

It makes no sense to me that we're paying farmers subsidies to not grow crops that we could be using for biofuels.  I have no problem whatsoever using 'food' crops to supply power.  There's plenty of all of it to go around.  But it isn't about feeding people or driving, it's about making money.  That's the crux of many problems we've got to figure a way around.
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kathyp
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« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2007, 04:13:51 PM »

making money is not a problem.  if farmers think they can make money growing crops for bio-fuel, they'll do it.  they'll do it and charge as much as they can for their crops.  IF bio-fuels are the answer, i'll plow up my place and plant corn. 

there are more interesting things about this.  for instance, the fact that people are not changing driving habits.   why not?  because the economy is so good that they are not really being hurt by the higher fuel cost.  the average person is paying a smaller percentage of income for fuel than they did in the 80's.  cost is up, but pain is down.

another interesting thing....how are the tree huggin, coke drinkin, green folks, going to reconcile their glee over the demise of the oil industry and growth of bio-fuel, with the damage that this might do to the food supplies in 3rd world countries?  how will Hugo meet his lofty goals if his oil in his newly nationalized fields is not worth as much?  how will he meet the debts that he has bought from his neighboring countries in exchange for their support against us?

yes...it could be lots of fun.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Mklangelo
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« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2007, 05:20:12 PM »

If they find a way to get about 80% efficiency out of a solar panel, it will then be feasible use em' to our advantage.  Right now, depending on what you are willing to pay for the panel, your efficiency will vary from 8% to around 40%.  And the price will go up 100 times from the 8% to the 40% panel.

At the moment, the amount of room needed to place enough panels to get even near the amount of power needed to run a town is ridiculous.  You see these solar powered cars that might get to 70mph on the perfectly level, smooth salt flat?  The car is made of expensive, lightweight polymers and the panel is as big as the car....  Do the math.  Solar technology has a way to go in order to be feasible.

They're working on it, but it's gonna be awhile.

We have a hydrogen furnace at the center of our solar system that is gonna burn for a long, long time.  That is your long term answer, not corn.
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If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside.
  - Robert X. Cringely
Mici
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« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2007, 07:07:51 PM »

jerry, trust me, small car does cut it Wink
if europe and US exchanged ALL veichles, europe would be stuck whilst US would have 50% faster traffic grin
i think that i couldn't even drive onto our yard with one of those semi-bus like car, hehe

hydrogen, never, not with this technology
solar energy, to scarce although in abundance
geothermal energy..now this one might be...
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Mklangelo
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« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2007, 07:16:12 PM »

jerry, trust me, small car does cut it Wink
if europe and US exchanged ALL veichles, europe would be stuck whilst US would have 50% faster traffic grin
i think that i couldn't even drive onto our yard with one of those semi-bus like car, hehe

hydrogen, never, not with this technology
solar energy, to scarce although in abundance
geothermal energy..now this one might be...

I mean the sun.  It's fuel is Hydrogen.  Those fuel cell engines that run on hydrogen have a long way to go.  It's kind of hard to get hydrogen to separate from Oxygen.  The fuel is there already for the solar power.  It's FREE and there's more than we will ever need.  We just have to improve the technology of the panels.  They will do it some day.  It's just a matter of time.
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alt="Click for Milwaukee, Wisconsin Forecast" height=100 width=150>[/url]

If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside.
  - Robert X. Cringely
AllanJ
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« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2007, 08:13:22 PM »

Now I really get tired of things being compared from country to country. This isn't Europe or Asia or Africa. This is America. In a five day week to get just from work and back home is 120 miles. That is straight to work and straight home.

It depends on what you are comparing. Cost of fuel is one thing, but I think comparing fuel efficiency in vehicles is absolutely the right thing to do.  I still do not fully understand why vehicles in Europe can obtain 50mpg whilst the average US vehicle struggles to get 20mpg.  Why does the auto industry consistently fight any moves to increase the fuel efficiency of vehicles in the US? Why is the US at the bottom of the list when it comes to fuel efficiency?  Why have most other countries mandated increases in fuel efficiency whilst the US tries to remain level?

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reinbeau
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« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2007, 09:35:31 PM »

Now I really get tired of things being compared from country to country. This isn't Europe or Asia or Africa. This is America. In a five day week to get just from work and back home is 120 miles. That is straight to work and straight home.

It depends on what you are comparing. Cost of fuel is one thing, but I think comparing fuel efficiency in vehicles is absolutely the right thing to do.  I still do not fully understand why vehicles in Europe can obtain 50mpg whilst the average US vehicle struggles to get 20mpg.  Why does the auto industry consistently fight any moves to increase the fuel efficiency of vehicles in the US? Why is the US at the bottom of the list when it comes to fuel efficiency?  Why have most other countries mandated increases in fuel efficiency whilst the US tries to remain level?
Why did the railroads go away?  Same reason.  Big oil likes us to drive gas guzzling cars all over the country.  Money helps money make more money.  Cynical?  I guess so!  evil
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kathyp
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« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2007, 10:27:41 PM »

Quote
Why did the railroads go away?

they didn't.  people simply moved away from the tracks.  alcohol and ethanol were the fuels of choice until oil was found in this country and became cheaper.  people enjoyed being able to set their own schedulers and go where they wanted.  the auto was freedom.  the train was restriction.

Quote
I still do not fully understand why vehicles in Europe can obtain 50mpg whilst the average US vehicle struggles to get 20mpg.  Why does the auto industry consistently fight any moves to increase the fuel efficiency of vehicles in the US? Why is the US at the bottom of the list when it comes to fuel efficiency?  Why have most other countries mandated increases in fuel efficiency whilst the US tries to remain level?

in the us we would rather let market forces dictate behavior, not the government.  in Europe, they have given over to socialism and government control of all that they do.  in the 70's, when we had fuel shortages, people began to drive more fuel efficient cars.  they had to be imported for the most part.  the unions have the auto industry so tied up that they can not keep up with needs or change.  people will drive what they can afford to drive.  we do not need the government dictating what we drive or how fuel efficient it is.

btw...i noticed that in Europe many of the cars are diesel.  they spew crap into the air endlessly.  not exactly earth friendly?


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2007, 12:24:20 AM »

jerry, trust me, small car does cut it

There are places I have to go that one needs a vehicle with high clearance, four wheel drive, and good horse power. I also have a trailer that is 24 feet long with a 7,000 pound capacity that I sometimes have to take into these areas, or have to at least pull it out of the mud. Nope a little car just won't do some of the stuff I got to do. Wouldn't even move an inch.
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Mici
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« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2007, 05:34:39 AM »

people will drive what they can afford to drive.  we do not need the government dictating what we drive or how fuel efficient it is.

btw...i noticed that in Europe many of the cars are diesel.  they spew crap into the air endlessly.  not exactly earth friendly?

but very few realise, thet if they payed just a tiny bit more, they would save loads of money in years to come kilometers to ride. too few people realise that!.
yep, lot of diesel cars around here, we have 3 and they're all diesel, but they're more fuel efficient, say...for 100km they need 3 litres less than benzin cars and the other reason is, diesel used to be cheaper. but, our three  cars eat same ammount of fuel as one in the US, 5.7L/100, 6L/100 and 5L/100.

ok jerry, i guess it wouldn't do it for you but majority.....because the big car trend is getting around you know, and people with big cars usually need them solely to have enough room to drive their EGO with them, nothing else.
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indypartridge
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« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2007, 08:37:03 AM »

I still do not fully understand why vehicles in Europe can obtain 50mpg whilst the average US vehicle struggles to get 20mpg.  Why does the auto industry consistently fight any moves to increase the fuel efficiency of vehicles in the US? Why is the US at the bottom of the list when it comes to fuel efficiency?  Why have most other countries mandated increases in fuel efficiency whilst the US tries to remain level?
Car companies build and sell the cars that people want to buy. European governments, to my knowledge, have NOT mandated fuel efficiency levels, but rather have enacted policies which cause the cost of fuel to be very high. High fuel costs drive the consumers to smaller, fuel-efficient cars. In the US, with relatively low fuel costs, consumers flock to big, high-performance vehicles.

One of the easiest ways to increase fuel economy is simply to SLOW down. When I drive across the state to pick up my son at college, I drive about 65mph, and often will not pass a single vehicle, but am passed by countless vehicles at high rates of speed.

As was noted in previous posts, despite high gas prices, Americans are driving more, and demand for fuel is UP. Ask any car dealer, who has on his lot two identical cars, one with a 4-cylinder engine, one with a 6-cylinder engine, which will sell fastest?  Horsepower is what consumers want, far more then fuel efficiency.

The government mandates for higher fuel efficiency is simply the government taking the easy way out; pushing the problem on someone else, a "big bad corporation". The government could lower the speed limit to 55mph, or raise gas taxes to European-levels, but that would be very unpopular politically.

Trying to reduce US oil dependency by forcing automakers to produce fuel efficient cars is like trying to reduce American obesity by forcing clothing manufactures to make only small sizes.
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kathyp
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« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2007, 11:01:07 AM »

Quote
like trying to reduce American obesity by forcing clothing manufactures to make only small sizes.

that brought two competing pictures to mind immediately.  both have seared the back of my eyeballs forever  tongue  smiley

mici, i need a big truck also.  when the fuel prices started to climb, i bought a car.  i did not buy the most fuel efficient car on the lot, but it bought the most fuel efficient car that would meet my needs.  instead of driving my great big diesel truck around town, i drive my smaller (4 cylinder) toyota camry  smiley.

market forces work if you let them.  they do not work as quickly as government mandated programs.  it's about how you choose to live, i guess.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Mklangelo
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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2007, 08:56:58 AM »

I see those huge Hummers driving around town here.  There is no practical purpose for such a vehicle in the city.  It is simply a means for some people to say "look how much money I have"


A rancher in Colorado has a need for such a vehicle, not someone in the city.
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<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniStates_both/language/www/US/WI/Milwaukee.gif
" border=0
alt="Click for Milwaukee, Wisconsin Forecast" height=100 width=150>[/url]

If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside.
  - Robert X. Cringely
kathyp
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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2007, 09:34:24 AM »

Quote
A rancher in Colorado has a need for such a vehicle, not someone in the city.


very true.  i feel the same way about these dingbat women in their SUVs.  still....do you want the government mandating who can and can not drive what?  i sure don't.
 
 
 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Mklangelo
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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2007, 05:23:44 PM »

Quote
A rancher in Colorado has a need for such a vehicle, not someone in the city.


very true.  i feel the same way about these dingbat women in their SUVs.  still....do you want the government mandating who can and can not drive what?  i sure don't.
 
 
 


No way Kathyp.  The further the government stays out of my way, the better off I am!  It is impossible to legislate morality or common sense!  It's a real dilemma.  Society evolves slowly from the perspective of a single person, we're only here for a short time.  But if you look back over the last 100 years, we have come a LONG way.
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<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniStates_both/language/www/US/WI/Milwaukee.gif
" border=0
alt="Click for Milwaukee, Wisconsin Forecast" height=100 width=150>[/url]

If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside.
  - Robert X. Cringely
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