Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
October 21, 2014, 08:18:26 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Foundationless frames  (Read 3213 times)
rayb
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 163

Location: cincinnati, oh


« on: April 25, 2007, 01:28:39 AM »

Can a whole box of 10 foundationless frames (with starter strips) be added as the colony needs more room, or do I mix foundationless frames between full sheets or between fully drawn comb ?

Thanks, Ray
Logged
ChickenWing
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 61


Location: Temperance, Michigan 41°48' N. Lat.


« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2007, 02:42:09 AM »

Its a good Idea to add a full sheet or drawn comb in, so the bees know in which direction to orient the rest of the comb.  Otherwise, a real mess can result.   A resent post by Tillie has some photos of this.  Cheesy


http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=8583.0
Logged
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2007, 05:52:25 AM »

.
You save a lot money if you give foundations.
You need in one good hive 5 kg foundations which is equal 40 kg = 80 lb honey


Bees need 8 kg honey to make 1 kg comb wax. 
10 langstroth foundations are equal 1 kg wax.
To draw 10 foundations to combs bees need about 1 kg wax more.
 
These calculations are pretty same as this reseach have got on field:
 
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm
 
Bees like to draw drone combs without foundations. You may also see
how much natural amount of dronecombs (20%) affects on honey yield 
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html


Logged
bluegrass
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 459

Location: CT


« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 06:24:31 AM »

It will cost you honey production,  but you don't need to put drawn comp or foundation in for them, you also do not need foundation starter strips; wood works just as well. The comb is alot prettier if they do have something for a guide, but it is not necissary. I did have one cut out this year that took about three weeks to dawl  comb in the right drection, but they got it after a while, then I went in and removed everything that was wrong....they are doing good now. I am working on going foundationless in all my brood boxes.
Logged

Sugarbush Bees
Devbee
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 35


Location: Austin, TX


WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 09:28:52 AM »

I just started out this year and dumped my package of bees into an 8-frame medium box with 5 starter strip frames and 3 small-cell foundation frames.  They were drawing the comb like gangbusters but got a bit off because they had built comb around the queen cage since it messed up their bee spacing between two frames.

I cut out the burr comb they had made, and a week later inspected, and they are drawing straight, lovely comb on the starter strips and small-cell foundation with a ton of capped worker brood.  I just added another 8-frame medium since they have drawn 6 or 7 of the 8 frames on the bottom box.  It has only one frame with small-cell foundation, and the other 7 frames are starter strips.

I am also feeding sugar water and they are drinking it at a rate of 2 gallons per week, using it I am sure to draw lots of comb.

Good luck!
Logged

rayb
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 163

Location: cincinnati, oh


« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2007, 11:51:26 AM »

Thanks for the quick replies. I did not realize how much energy went in to making up the drawn comb ( and therefore lost honey production). Perhaps I will use foundation but try a little foundationless to see what they do.

Thanks again for all the great responses.

Ray
Logged
tillie
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1740


Location: Atlanta, GA

Bee in N Georgia on a Blackberry flower


WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2007, 12:02:10 PM »

See the writing on Michael Bush's page about the expense of making wax not being such a big deal:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm

Linda T
Logged

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You never can tell with bees" - Winnie the Pooh


Click for Atlanta, Georgia Forecast" border="0" height="60" width="468
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2007, 12:33:37 PM »

See the writing on Michael Bush's page about the expense of making wax not being such a big deal:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm



That text calls "research" to help when facts are not pleasant. The consumption of honey to produce wax has been know as long as I have been beekeeper, 45 years. I have allways gived 6 kg sugar to the swarm which draw a langstroth box of foundations. I have had tens of swarms.

All beekeepers know that if you put swarm on ready combs, they forage enormously honey, because  swarm is mad to work.

If you please open the link http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm .
This measuring lasted 3 seasons.

And if you look netto profit of beekeeping, the influence of foundations are much more bigger.

******************

It has researched too that when you give winter syrup for bees and they process it and cap it, 25% of sugar will go into store processing.
Nothing happens without energy in life. So you give 20 kg sugar for winter and in final store bees have 15 kg after 2 weeks.

.

Logged
Scadsobees
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3198


Location: Jenison, MI

Best use of smileys in a post award.


« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2007, 02:10:15 PM »

On the otherhand, if you are a hobby beek like me, and want to save some cash at the front, once the comb is drawn it out you are all set.  Sure, not as much honey at the end, but it didn't cost as much to get started.  And then you still have drawn comb.

It is worth it if this is a hobby and you are trying to minimize pocketbook impact...like building a house all at once on a loan or building it as the money becomes available.  And fun to see what the bees do as long as they don't mess it up too bad Smiley

But if you are running a business and need honey and money.......


Rick
Logged

Rick
tillie
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1740


Location: Atlanta, GA

Bee in N Georgia on a Blackberry flower


WWW
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2007, 03:54:47 PM »

I know it's not economical from Finsky's POV to let the bees re-draw comb, but I like it because I really like to do cut comb honey - which tastes lucious - and that requires new wax every year. 

Also I harvest as a hobbyist with crush and strain, so my bees are making new comb every year anyway.....

but like Rick says, if you are selling it and are doing it for a business, then that will certainly influence your thinking and planning.

Linda T not a honey business woman in Atlanta
Logged

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You never can tell with bees" - Winnie the Pooh


Click for Atlanta, Georgia Forecast" border="0" height="60" width="468
randydrivesabus
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1072

Location: Indian Valley, VA


« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2007, 04:35:54 PM »

i'm getting 3 packages on saturday and plan to install them in deeps with frames with just small cell starter strips i got from jim on the beesource board. I plan to use the wedges to hold the starter strips.
i hope this works out. i'm gonna work on the strips tonight. i guess i may have to melt some beeswax. wouldn't a hair dryer melt the wax?
o...one more thing...is there a "this side up" on starter strips?
Logged
Mici
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1502


Location: Zagradec, Grosuple, Lower Carniola, Slovenia

tougher than rock


WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2007, 04:43:34 PM »

hairdryer does melt wax, and pretty fast too!

this side up? well the starter strip has to be on the top side of the frame when you insert the frame.
Logged
randydrivesabus
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1072

Location: Indian Valley, VA


« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2007, 09:05:52 PM »

so this seems to have worked out well with just nailing the wedges with the strip edge under the wedge. but i wish i had smaller fingers to hold those tiny nails. sometimes pieces of the strips broke off and some in the package were a little broken. now to see how the bees like it.....
Logged
tillie
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1740


Location: Atlanta, GA

Bee in N Georgia on a Blackberry flower


WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2007, 10:13:52 PM »

Waxing it in is a picnic compared to those tiny little nails.  I'll never order a wedge/nail whatever you call it frame again.

Linda T with sympathy in Atlanta

PS randydrivesabus: I am forever grateful to you for the suggestion about taking bees out of the house with a glass and a postcard.  I'm on my 25th bee removal from the house with that method.....
Logged

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You never can tell with bees" - Winnie the Pooh


Click for Atlanta, Georgia Forecast" border="0" height="60" width="468
bluegrass
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 459

Location: CT


« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2007, 07:42:24 AM »

two words....WOOD GLUE
Logged

Sugarbush Bees
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2007, 07:46:49 AM »

.
Beekeeping is not suitable hobby for lazy people. It makes only harm for them.
Logged
Scadsobees
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3198


Location: Jenison, MI

Best use of smileys in a post award.


« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2007, 08:34:10 AM »

Air nailer/ electric stapler.  Not too expensive and makes it a lot easier to be lazy when assembling frames.  Don't glue your wedges, it'll be a pain if you ever want to put foundation or strips in there again.

Randy, put the long edge in the wedge.  If you do the narrow edge it will hang way past the bottom of the frame. rolleyes  Seriously, though, there isn't an up or down.

WORK SMARTER NOT HARDER!!!  I'm glad you like to work so hard, finsky   grin Smiley  I like to enjoy my hobby, not make it a bunch of work.  If I'm going to work I want to get paid for it.

Rick
Logged

Rick
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2007, 09:37:22 AM »

WORK SMARTER NOT HARDER!!!  I'm glad you like to work so hard, finsky   grin Smiley  I like to enjoy my hobby, not make it a bunch of work.  If I'm going to work I want to get paid for it.

Rick
HAH HAH, smart hobby.  I have done this 45 years. Frame work is just job for smarts and that is why I ask my wife to do it.  Best advices come from 1. year beekeepers.  grin 

You know, smart is a such who learn from others. When I read this forum, people make all but not necessary works here. They like to invent every year a new wheel. There goes your smartness,  heh heh.  Life is so radical.

There is nothing smart to use foundationless frames, even if it is hobby. But if you save the globe with that, so it is smart.





 
.
Logged
randydrivesabus
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1072

Location: Indian Valley, VA


« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2007, 10:33:09 AM »

well i knew that my question as to which way is up would turn out to make me look dumb after i posted it but if it made any of you smile it was worth it.
having nailed in full size foundation and now starter strips i would say that full size is way easier with the wires hanging off the end.
Logged
tillie
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1740


Location: Atlanta, GA

Bee in N Georgia on a Blackberry flower


WWW
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2007, 10:55:02 AM »

Now Finsky, you know that we first/second year beekeepers learn by posting here and being refuted by people in the know!

Linda T grin  huh  rolleyes  evil
Logged

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You never can tell with bees" - Winnie the Pooh


Click for Atlanta, Georgia Forecast" border="0" height="60" width="468
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2007, 10:55:24 AM »

.
GOOD HINT:

If you use foundation, make 8-10 mm gap between lower bar and foundation. Wax enlarges in the heat of hive and it needs space. If gap is too small, the lowest part of comb will become curved.

.
Logged
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2007, 10:59:10 AM »

Now Finsky, you know that we first/second year beekeepers learn by posting here and being refuted by people in the know!

Linda T grin  huh  rolleyes  evil

 afro
Logged
buzzbee
Ken
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 5464


Location: North Central PA


WWW
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2007, 07:19:27 PM »

Good idea on trimming the foundation Finsky!
I saw this happen on a couple frames only. But if it happens on a couple,it could happen a lot. cool
Logged
Zoot
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 466

Location: Dickerson, MD


« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2007, 11:41:08 PM »

Finsky,

Good to have you back old boy. Your advice about trimming foundation - would that apply to frames in honey supers as well as brood frames?
Logged
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2007, 11:48:37 PM »

.
I use medium frames in supers. I have not found problem there and it dosen not distur because cell are used for honey.
In brood area bees cannot use twisted cells.

If you want to straighten the  curve, cut 10 mm comb edge off and twist comb plate in right position. You may cut a bigger piece and bees use it as drone zone. In late summer bees make only worker cells.
Logged
Ross
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 512

Location: Greenville, TX


WWW
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2007, 10:56:28 AM »

One word -- foundationless.

The center one is what I do now.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled5.jpg

Using the sled, I can cut a 100 in 15 minutes safely
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled4.jpg

because the blade is buried in the cut, never exposed.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/sled2.jpg

The bees like just fine, and no strips to fall or warp.
http://www.myoldtools.com/OBhive/OB1.jpg
Logged

www.myoldtools.com
Those who don't read good books have no advantage over those who can't---Mark Twain
Zoot
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 466

Location: Dickerson, MD


« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2007, 07:02:30 PM »

Ross,

Not sure what I'm seeing in the top photo. What's the purpose of the apparent bevel at the top of the frame?
Logged
bluegrass
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 459

Location: CT


« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2007, 07:49:58 AM »

Its for foundationless comb. Gives the bees a starting point. What you are looking at is the bottom of the top bar befor the frame is assembled.
Logged

Sugarbush Bees
bluegrass
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 459

Location: CT


« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2007, 08:01:14 AM »

well i knew that my question as to which way is up would turn out to make me look dumb after i posted it but if it made any of you smile it was worth it.


There is an up and down according to some.
Logged

Sugarbush Bees
tillie
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1740


Location: Atlanta, GA

Bee in N Georgia on a Blackberry flower


WWW
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2007, 08:26:04 AM »

iis there a "this side up" on starter strips?

randydrivesabus, there is some work on Housel positioning that would suggest that there IS an up or down to the starter strips (any foundation).  I used it in the last box I put on a hive which had been building messy comb from starter strips in hopes that it would help....we'll see. 

Here's a reference:
http://cordovan-honeybee.com/housel/index.htm

I believe that Michael Bush has not found it to be particularly necessary and has some interesting pictures on his site about confused up and down comb
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=2826.msg20221#msg20221 - you can search the beemaster site for more on housel positioning, however and read more about it.

Linda T in Atlanta
Logged

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"You never can tell with bees" - Winnie the Pooh


Click for Atlanta, Georgia Forecast" border="0" height="60" width="468
livetrappingbymatt
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 49

Location: central new york


« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2007, 08:41:53 PM »

small nails/big fingers problem solved,electric brad nailer from lowes.
bob
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.887 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page October 20, 2014, 09:14:22 PM