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Author Topic: sugar dusting made it easier?  (Read 11420 times)
Michael Bush
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2007, 01:23:40 PM »

>It is  shown in researches  that Carniolan is not able to build 4,9 foundation. It tears it up.

That is simply not true and easily disproved.  Typically Unregressed Carniolans on their first try will build somewhere around 5.1mm.  On their second generation they will usually draw 4.9mm and smaller.

Here's a comb drawn by UNREGRESSED Carniolans:

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

It's 4.7mm

Here's one from regressed Carniolans:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/PrimaryCombOnBlankStarterStrip.JPG

It's 4.6mm

Both of these are commercial Carniolans WITHOUT ANY FOUNDATION.

Try it.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2007, 02:20:53 PM »


Try it.



But what is the meaning of this? Try everything for what?
My professional friedns have told what have happened when they have tried small cell foundations. They have returned back to standard. They earn they living with beekeeping. To them it not toy like to me and most of us.

We have discussed this  many times. We can breed all kind of animal mini and maxi. But for something purpose or for curiosity?

Man has breeded from wolf dogs whic are tiny and huge. Same with horse.

I kept Carniolans 10 years and my yield dropped for swarming 20%. Then I took again italians and my yield jumped +80%.

You Michael say that you aim is minimize work with bees. Is surely does seem that. You have poor pastures and you have too much hives in one place. You have small hives and small winterclusters. You have something else than get honey. Perhaps you sell those special bees or not? You loose over 50-75% with your topbar-natural-comb systems and with other stone age systems.

If you have made your experiments, I trust you and I need not go after you.  I can learn what is your achiements and It is enough for me.  With my experience I can read even between lines.  It is my goals and aims what I go after. Not 100 different tricks what others are doing.

Of course you may play with breeding and generate many kinds of dogs from wolf. Regressed wolf in picture





here is diffrent size cells for regressed and nonregressed dogs for sale




.

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Finsky
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2007, 02:49:02 PM »


Here is famous research. Look table 1 about combs

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm

But remember. I have not mite broblem. I use standard foundations. Mite does not disturb me. Mite disturbs me only in these forums when people are not able to handle varroa.  In autumn I have 300-500 mites on the hive floor dead, and I am it suist for me. I need not bother my self.

Oxalic acid is so safe that Europen Union does not want to measure residuals.

However it is greatly interested about the added sugar in the honey. It is too known that ice sugar dust kills larvae.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2007, 05:15:20 PM »

>You loose over 50-75% with your topbar-natural-comb systems and with other stone age systems.

Not really.  Most years I lose between 0% and 10%.  Back when I had large cell comb and Apistan treatments for Varroa, I lost 100%.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2007, 11:37:53 PM »

>You loose over 50-75% with your topbar-natural-comb systems and with other stone age systems.

Not really.  Most years I lose between 0% and 10%.  Back when I had large cell comb and Apistan treatments for Varroa, I lost 100%.



The reason is not Apistan and normal cell. You have some systematic error in your beekeeping.

Here is yields during varroa & Apistan period  from British Columbia. http://www.al.gov.bc.ca/apiculture/statistics/industry90-05.pdf

If you put data in exel grafics, you se that yields are between 60 and 100 lb. Average is 80 lb.

Every where you may read that Varroa dropped those beekeepers away which did not nothing to control mite.


So you are delivering knowledge that don't do nothing. That helps against varroa.

.
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Finsky
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« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2007, 12:58:25 AM »


gene-pool, your probably right, but help me understand it. i thought that gene-pool is nothing else but the whole population, so by eliminating a part of that population you are eliminating a part of the gene-pool.
if not, what is it?


But Mici, as youg person you look matter sentence by sentence.

Who in the world does so that whole nation's bees are contaminate  with something pest and then we look what happens?

Right and only way is breed and select small groups and when solutions has found, then better genepool is delivired to beekeepers. 

I have attitude that this and other forum is for serious discussions. Not for casting all kind of lips what come in mind.  "Varroa kills 50% and then things are better".  And that you are teaching to new beekeepers?

I perhaps understand one man's nature laboratory with 4 hives, but whole nations beekeeping... Readers must be very humorous to understand what is your meaning.

.

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« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2007, 05:29:13 AM »

loo, all i mean with last year losses is that it was another step towards EVOLUTIONARY mite resistanc bee breed. by no chance i meant that last years losses mean a turn over in beekeeping.
i believe things got better, BUT a little, that's all
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2007, 01:33:36 PM »

>The reason is not Apistan and normal cell. You have some systematic error in your beekeeping.

The reason for those losses was Varroa that is resistant to Apistan and cells that help them reproduce:

http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid1999/btdoct99.htm#Article3
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2007, 03:26:46 AM »

hey, sorry for such a late reply, guys???

I did not expect that this thread would get so much posting traffic at all-almost like the one about the varroa shaman grin

first, I agree with you, MB, the Carnis easily build smaller cells than 5.4, I can prove it, next weekend I will take some shots about newly drawn comb on blank wooden starter strips on 32-33 mm comb spacing-I did not measure the cell size yet, but it is visibly smaller that on the foundation-drawn combs
moreover, a week ago, some of the partially drawn combs had already plenty of eggs!

but guys, the thread was intended to discuss the use of the duster in simplifying or not the sugar dusting treatment.....
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2007, 12:59:19 AM »

Personally I think small cell is a misnomer.  I prefer to call it natural cell.  By using starter strips only as a "start here" guide the bees will build the comb the same way they would in the wild, hence natrually.
The bees build comb from wood to wood.  In the process you'll find storage comb, drone comb, and worker brood comb all on the same frame just as in nature.  There are generally three sizes of comb in every beehive (not counting queen cells) and the bees build as much of each kind as they need.  When they have a sufficient amount of drone and worker comb the remainder will be storage comb.
I prefer to let the bees build the type of comb they need.  Also, by letting them build the comb naturally they will build it more quickly and more consistantly if viewed from the type comb for specific use POV. 
It is a matter of letting the bees be bees.  Getting into an arguement over small cell vs. large cell or standard cell misses the point.  Foundation is a forcing the bees to use a universal type of cell size strickly for the convenience of the beekeeper. 
One last point.  Using natrual built comb might use more of the honey production towards comb building the 1st year but after that it is all the same cost wise.  However, based soely on my observations a hive building comb naturally will build it faster and have an equivalent harvestable honey crop as a hive using foundation.  It is not uncommon for me to find that the hive natural builds comb to out produce a hive using foundation, everything else being equal. 
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« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2007, 01:59:45 AM »

Using natrual built comb might use more of the honey production towards comb building the 1st year but after that it is all the same cost wise.  However, based soely on my observations a hive building comb naturally will build it faster and have an equivalent harvestable honey crop as a hive using foundation.  It is not uncommon for me to find that the hive natural builds comb to out produce a hive using foundation, everything else being equal. 


Brian. You mocked me that I am not able to learn new things. I have shown these studies many times and no help.

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm

And when bees make their own combs they make more drone cells.

http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html 

Brian, why do you think that professionals use foundations if natural combs are better?

And natural cells have nothing to do with mites. Bees die first with their natural cells if beekeepers is not protencting them.

What is the idea to deliver wrong information to new beekeepers?  That is why I am here again.

.


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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2007, 11:51:00 PM »

Finsky:

1. I did not mock you, I'm sorry if you came to that conclusion, your approach and mine are from different perspectives.  Not everybody sees things the same way, or wants to.  That was the point I was trying to make.
2. I have evolved into advocating natural beekeeping.  To that end I was explaining comb development from that perspective.  Bees desire to have a given amount of drone comb.  With foundation they will chew up the corners of the sheets so they can build drone comb--thats a fact.  They will also store honey in both drone and worker brood comb. 
3. I have kept bees the way you advocate and done so very successfully, but wringing the maximum amount of honey production (income) from the bees is no longer my objective.
4. If a person wants to be a successful commercial beekeeper I would advise them to follow your management practices to the letter.  Ditto for Cold weather survival management.
5. There are more that one way to skin a rabbit, I know of at least 3, which method I choose is up to me.  There are many more than 3 ways to keep bees.  Many like the natural method, some want strictly organic methods, others want to learn everything they can--all the different approaches, and still others, having learned the basics want to experiment. 
6. As I've said before; I believe in giving people the information they ask for and letting them decide weather they want to use it or not.  Right or Wrong.
7. My mentor began beekeeping in 1899.  When he was in his mid 80's he tried to teach me everything he had learned.  Some of what I was taught I've had to unlearn as I found it in error.  This is why I maintain the experience is the best teacher.
8. I think it admirable that you are willing to share your knowledge with others, please allow me the same privalege even if you don't agree with all of it.

If you are going to get upset over people sharing their viewpoints I don't know what to tell you.  A lot of different viewpoints, experiences, and educational levels are a part of this forum.  I don't agree with everything everybody says--far from it, but I respect their right to say it and laud them for there willingness to share.  That's all any of can ask or give.

Brian
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2007, 09:52:24 AM »


Here is famous research. Look table 1 about combs

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.ht
Oxalic acid is so safe that Europen Union does not want to measure residuals.
However it is greatly interested about the added sugar in the honey. Is too known that ice sugar dust kills larvae.


Finsky has brought up a point that I have been mulling in my head over and over. 
It is regarding the above statement that "it is known than ice sugar dust kills larvae".  A couple of days ago I was thinking about the icing sugar treatment and how good it would be if one ascertained that there was a mite problem during a time when chemicals of any sort would be out of the question.

My thoughts led me to this statement that Finsky made.  So, the sugar dust has permeated the hive after it is applied.  The dust gets into the unsealed larvae.  That is obvious.  I am of the impression that larvae must be kept moist or they plain and simply die.  My question that requires an answer is:

Do the larvae die because of the sugar dusting that has gone into their cell before capping? 
Have a wonderful day, do some thinking about this, comments would be all a good thing.  Best of health.  Cindi
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« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2007, 02:22:39 AM »

Finsky:

........
2. I have evolved into advocating natural beekeeping. 

...........


What ever beekeeper you are, there are common facts which are not dependen on what you are thinking and how old is you menthor. My first menthor was born about 1890.  I just saw systems on his yard what you are now diskussing here.

Strange this is that natural beekeeper is able to denie factc what guide greedy beekeeper.

Some are these and they are same what ever beekeepr you are:

* good yields come from pastures, not from combs.
* Even if you nurse bees with same method, and yard's distance is only 3 miles, yield may be 3-5 fold.
* When bees make wax, they consume  6-8 kg honey for one 1 kg wax. One 1 wax goes when bees draw one langstroth box foundations.
* One L. box have 1 kg foundations.

I had hives on splended fireweed pastures. I gived to hive 3 medium box foundations. In three week they draw all foundations and hives all had 240 lbs cappad honey in one time.

3 miles away I have same size hives on rape field. They got 60-80 lbs honey, and they did not draw even one foundations box. Summer was very hot and nectar come only on moist soil pastures.

You are not able "to see" how much bees consume honey to wax making. How much they spend, is common truth, and I cannot understand how so many is able to turn the fact so favorit himself. 

But every people formulate his own truth and people read "fact" to sustain his own former attitudes.

One leading guy in Finland claim that bees exrecete wax all the time same measure. He claims that it is same how much you give them foundations.

************

In horticulture guys claim that a big tree catches so and so much dust from air.  If it is true, every year I should see one new cubic square meter dust under the tree and after 10 years  amount of lorry. - But I cannot see it. So, I am a bad environmentalist when I cannot see that dust heap under the tree.

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2007, 08:11:27 AM »

I gived to hive 3 medium box foundations. In three week they draw all foundations and hives all had 240 lbs cappad honey in one time.

Foundation is only the bottom part of the cells. Just how much wax could that possibly be? Surely there couldn't be that much more honey needed to build just that little bit of cell bottom. So while you claim huge differences in yield between foundation and no foundation, I just can't see it. I can see a possible increase between fully drawn comb and no wax at all. 

In horticulture guys claim that a big tree catches so and so much dust from air.  If it is true, every year I should see one new cubic square meter dust under the tree and after 10 years  amount of lorry. - But I cannot see it. So, I am a bad environmentalist when I cannot see that dust heap under the tree.

You should live here where the dust really blows. If there is dust in the air and there is something to block the wind then the dust will fall out of the air. It doesn't have to be a tree, just a little clump of grass. I have seen dirt build up on the leeward side of rocks in one day. You don't have to be an environmentalist or a horticulture guy to see this happen here. Wind picks up the dirt. When the wind stops blowing or is blocked by something, the dirt falls out of it.

Now you might not notice a build up under or around a tree because the wind might also come from another direction at another time and pick that dirt back up and move it some where else.
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« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2007, 08:49:55 AM »


Foundation is only the bottom part of the cells. Just how much wax could that possibly be?



When you bye langstrot foundations, one sheet weights  100 g. One box  needs 10 sheets= 1 kg wax.

Quote
Surely there couldn't be that much more honey needed to build just that little bit of cell bottom. So while you claim huge differences in yield between foundation and no foundation, I just can't see it. I can see a possible increase between fully drawn comb and no wax at all. 


HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh


Quote
You should live here where the dust really blows. If there is dust in the air and there is something to block the wind then the dust will fall out of the air. It doesn't have to be a tree, just a little clump of grass.


Hmmm... I have seen pictures. Texas is like Sahara. Nothing else but dust and oil. Not even lonely cowboy.

I wander if you still need icing sugar to kill mites after that sand. Sandstorm in Texas.



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« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2007, 09:34:35 AM »

I need to have answers to the question about the icing sugar dust killing larvae because of the icing sugar dehydrating or coating the larvae so that there is not moisture in their cell.  Best of a very beautiful day, the sun is shinin'.  Great health to all.   Cindi
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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2007, 01:22:58 PM »

When you bye langstrot foundations, one sheet weights  100 g. One box  needs 10 sheets= 1 kg wax.


Perhaps so. I never weighed it. But I do know that the foundation a person buys, or makes, is a lot thicker than what the bees make on the bottom of a cell.   

Surely there couldn't be that much more honey needed to build just that little bit of cell bottom. So while you claim huge differences in yield between foundation and no foundation, I just can't see it. I can see a possible increase between fully drawn comb and no wax at all. 

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuh


What did you not understand?


Hmmm... I have seen pictures. Texas is like Sahara. Nothing else but dust and oil.


Those would be pictures on the plains in the panhandle of Texas. It is caused by all the wide open farm land we have and very little wind blocks. Texas is nothing like the Sahara. Here are some pictures of a desert in Texas.





Sorry Cindi. I don't know why the sugar causes larva to die.
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« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2007, 01:47:43 PM »

jep, foundation we buy is awfully thick
so..if you look at a cell you see that the bottom represents what?1/6 maybe even less of the surface? plus that surface serves on the other side aswell, i've noticed that bees thiner the foundation we give them, maybe they use it to build cell wals?
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« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2007, 01:57:58 PM »

i've noticed that bees thiner the foundation we give them, maybe they use it to build cell wals?

When bees make heir own combs, the growing edge of comb is quite thick. Bees rework it thinner.
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