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Author Topic: sugar dusting made it easier?  (Read 11252 times)
tbh-fan
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« on: April 19, 2007, 04:21:35 AM »

hi guys,

recently i bought a duster from an agricultural supplier-the one used in vineyards for sulfur dusting-pretty cheap, so i thought i should give it a try

what do you think, could it be possible to mount a narrow plastic tube on the duster and introduce the tube into the hive, so a an even sugar cloud should occur, thus a minimum hive manipulation would be needed for the same dusting effect?

regards
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Kirk-o
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2007, 08:22:08 AM »

No I don't.I have never dusted before but part of being a beekeer is inspecting
your bees and handleing accordingly.Plus this is a small cell part of the Site.

This Sub group is under the Disease and Pest Control Naturel Organic Beekeeping Methods.The Disease snd Pest Control part is wrong.Small cell and natural comb and organic Beekeeping is just about pest control.

you should post your question on the Chemical side of the Board there is a lot of people over there who can help with treatment stuff

Your bees and you would be happier if you switched to  small cell
kirko
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Mici
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2007, 08:30:43 AM »

by using TBH he is automaticly switching to natural/small cell, but we all know this takes time, so in the mean time, he wants to treat chemical free.
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2007, 09:10:53 AM »

I occasionally do powdered sugar treatments. But using a duster I haven't done that. I don't think I have enough hives to warrant it. Also I am not sure if the powdered sugar could be pumped through a duster. I am simply not sure. It could very well be.

Also how would you get it to get the bees between the frames?

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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tbh-fan
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2007, 09:35:36 AM »

well, my hives are horizontal, with 25mm frames and with spacer bars in between (7 mm or 10 mm)
i could open only the spacer bars to have some access to the inside

i imagine the forced air flow from the duster should spread quite evenly from the point of sugar application


P.S.: yup, i chose the wrong section to post this thread, but i figured it out too late grin
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tbh-fan
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2007, 09:41:47 AM »


oh, and also i have some access to the hive interior by removing the rear panel, which covers the back edges of SBB and solid bottom

i shall post some pictures of the hives soon   
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Finsky
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2007, 11:15:48 AM »

by using TBH he is automaticly switching to natural/small cell, but we all know this takes time, so in the mean time, he wants to treat chemical free.

You are delivering really wrong information to beginners.  Older beepers have gone from here. When bees make natural cells they do not naturally start to make smaller cells. Where hell that come from. I have measure my naturall cells they are all 5,3 mm.

The industrial foundation is compromise between several bee races. Carniolan bee has biggest cell size (=Slovenia?). It is  shown in researches  that Carniolan is not able to build 4,9 foundation. It tears it up.

Bees are everywhere free in nature, and they have not small cells. And they cannot fight much against varroa.

I noticed a statistics too, that only 2% use sugar as varroa treatment in USA  Maarec area . The research searched answer, what is wrong in varroa treamnet in USA when dead rate is so big for varroa per year.

.

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TwT
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2007, 12:34:51 PM »

I agree with Finsky on this, I use 1" small cell starter strips last year (they were given to me) , I wanted to see what would happen, I put these frames checker boarded in about 7 hives that were on Pierco foundation which measures about 5.25 and they drew the small cell foundation out fine but after that inch was drawn out every cell from there were larger, on a average of 5.2-5-4 , so that starter strip must only work if your bee's are regressed already and I think only a percentage will be less than 5.0.
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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

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Mici
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« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2007, 01:21:22 PM »

hmmm. eventually cells will get small enough? or not?
i measured our commercial foundation, it's 5,4.
i've seen some photos of Carnis being put on SC, they made a terrible mess, but, like all researches have shown, you can't just put the bees on 10 sheets of SC foundation, the generation raised on natural cells would probably build it ok? or not?

ok so TWT what you're saying is that no mather how long i put them on blank starter strips they won't regress?
on the other hand, TWT what you said is exactly what they have noticed, only the center brood nest is 4,9 and expanding to the out of the brood nest so your observation confirms other observations.

darn..slowly i'm getting the filling that my best shot would be to press the bees with full throttle so they'd swarm, and then put the swarms in a big 20 frames brood box of starter strips..ahh, geting more complicated every day...
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Finsky
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2007, 03:07:36 PM »


TWT what you said is exactly what they have noticed, only the center brood nest is 4,9 and expanding to the out of the brood nest so your observation confirms other observations.



If you really are able to read what is cell size in articles, you first note that there are different bee races (>20)  make different size cells.  Commercial 5,3 foundation is a compromise between different races and different size bees. Like human, horses what ever, there are variations in size between animals and individuals. Look at you family!  In Siberia they choosed 5,6 mm to standard foundation one year ago.

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/morphometry.html
http://www.funpecrp.com.br/GMR/year2003/vol1-2/pdf/gmr0057.pdf


It is sad that many beekeepers life and hobby is jammed on the level of something cell millimeters. Beekeeping is full of interesting things and  4,9 mm cannot be answer to all broblems what you get in front of you.  It is awfull to notice that same harping continues from month to month.

NOTE THIS: THE BASIC OF BEEKEEPING IS

1) G O O D QUEENS = PLENTY OF BEES, CALM, NON SWARMING, HEALTY WHAT EVER

2) B I I I G HIVES, MUCH ROOM BOR BEES AND HONEY

2) G O O O O D PASTURES, WHER YOU PUT YOU HIVES AND THEY SHOW YOU WHAT THEY ARE ABLE TO DO


It is same what color or size you have in bees. With your skill it means nothing. To avoid swarming is essential. Take care of basic and you get much honey, you will learn to make business and meet succes in your life.  Now I play with stock and it goes better than with those stupid tiny animals.

When you read about small cells, it needs only half an hour. It must be understood in that time.

The healthiness  of bees comes from queen and from drones' semen, not from cell size.


Greetings from old fart




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Mici
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2007, 04:01:44 PM »

ok, thanks for informations finsky! i'll keep in mind everything you say. to go on, i'll still give them starter strips, hell they build them even nicer so...it don't cost nothing, and later, after 2 years or so, i'll tell you results, if they'll regress and if they stay healthy without my help (mean while i'll check for mite infestation for sure and treat, if needed)
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2007, 08:42:01 PM »

Did you start with regressed bees?

When I take feral colonies that have been established in the wild for a while, you will notice different cell sizes. Drone eggs are laid in the largest. Those are generally near the outside walls of comb. The honey cells are slightly smaller than the drone cells but larger than the brood cells.
The brood cells for workers are the smallest.

If you start with a standard package of non regressed bees you will end up with larger brood cells until they have had time to regress.

Also in a standard feral hive the top rows of comb store honey, not brood. The cells may start out larger near the top but they get smaller the further down the comb goes.

I try to make a similar setup on my hives. Where I cheat is one the brood is full, The upper 20 rows are filled with honey. I then add my honey super and generally she doesn not immeditally move up and start laying brood. Maybe because she does not want to cross a honey frame. If I leave it there for months the bees will move the honey lower and then the queen will move up laying more brood(remember I run top entrances). Then I just have to lift up a few more hive bodies to get to my honey supers.

This is going to be an interesting year or me. lots of neat little experiments to run. None of my observations are scientifically based but they are working for me.

Sincerley,
Brendhan
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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2007, 03:08:06 AM »

Topbarfan had question, how to use ice sugar against varroa

Does Slovenia have regressed or package bees?

Did you start with regressed bees?

When I take feral colonies that have been established in the wild for a while, you will notice different cell sizes. Drone eggs are laid in the largest. Those are generally near the outside walls of comb. The honey cells are slightly smaller than the drone cells but larger than the brood cells.
The brood cells for workers are the smallest.

If you start with a standard package of non regressed bees you will end up with larger brood cells until they have had time to regress.

 

What is that time to regress? Are they weeks, years, queen generations or what?  If you keep 3 years queen, you must wait 3 years if next queen is willing to regress?

Further more, in that area of Europe they have high quality mite tolerant Carniolans which are better than Russians. That has scientific shown.

There is now idea that a beginner start to breed his own bee tolerant regressed bees in the hart of good beekeeping

When you are top bar fan, try to get those mite tolerant Carniolans and use top bars.

.

.

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Finsky
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2007, 03:14:52 AM »

.

http://www.bf.uni-lj.si/jbozic/slobeek.html

Beekeeping  in  Slovenia - Homeland  of  Carniolan  Bee

.
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Mici
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2007, 04:49:22 AM »

ok, now that finsky has started it, let me just tell yo why they are Carnis/Carniolans instead of "Slovenes/ Slovenians"
the story goes WAAAY back, around 0AD, people used to call rock instead of nowadays skala they said kar, later in 6th cent. AD  a country Karantania/Carantania was established and it meant nothing but "rocky-home"   kar-rock   antan/stan/home. even later the former Carantania got divided into regions, one of them was Carniola/kranska.

i think that our bees natural mite tolerance just got better, last year i think that more than 50% of all bee population went down, although it was a hell of a winter it was no doubt varoa who destroyed them, so the bees that survived are probably more tolerant.

no finsky, we don't have either, no package and no regressed bees.
and finsky, please...you surelly know how one regresses his bees, i mean, c'mon you have had to read some of it?
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Finsky
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2007, 05:58:28 AM »

.you surelly know how one regresses his bees, i mean, c'mon you have had to read some of it?

This guy has regressed bees in Finland and he says that bees handle mites themselves.

I have bought queen from him but I am not satisfied with the size of bees and not with the temperament on Elgon.   Crossing with Italians are swamy and agressive.


Mite is my friend. I have no problem with that. I like big bees. They carry big loads of honey. I like big honey yields.

But you guys in this forum you cannot see nowadays nothing else than small cells.  After scientific researches small cell does not help against varroa.

MAKE YOUR DECISIONS AFTER FACTS AND TRY TO LEARN WHAT ARE FACTS IN INFORMATION WORLD. THAT IS BIGGEST JOB.
IF YOU DON'T CARE FACTS, IT IS SAME WHAT YOU TALK. IT HAS NO FUTURE. YOU CANNOT TAKE BACK YOUR WORDS EVERY DAY.


TO NURSE NATURAL WAY BEES IS ANOTHER QUESTION, BUT DONT MIX IT WITH SERIOUS HONEY PRODUCTION.

.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 10:41:34 AM by Finsky » Logged
Finsky
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2007, 10:35:48 AM »


i think that our bees natural mite tolerance just got better, last year i think that more than 50% of all bee population went down, although it was a hell of a winter it was no doubt varoa who destroyed them, so the bees that survived are probably more tolerant.


Europe has managed with varroa 25 years. Why it happens so heavily this winter? Have you thinked mobile phones or bad eye?

In Switcherland honey dew killed hives great pertangace a couple of years ago.  Summer was extremely hot in Europe. What does it affected in hives.
* Honey dew yield was expectional.
* Nosema cerana is found in many place in Europe, in Finland too. It is quite lethal.
* Dry summer and it's affects killed 30% hives 4 years ago. Bees did not get pollen for winter bees.

Difficult to undestand that varroa makes so heavy losses. In our country it takes 2-3 years that varroa kills the hive if you do not make any treatments.

You hope that your stock is harder for varroa now ---- That is not serious way to handle the issue, it is not hope matter. 
 Actually you have just same gene pole in your area and one winter cannot shange anything.  It is gene pole which means something. Not individual hives.  And then we talk about tens of years. When breeders make theirs selection work, 5 years means allmost nothing. Perhaps 10 years' heavy selection and insemination gives results. Free mating and free evolution is slow.

Mic, I may say to you that you take too much advicer's responsibilyty when you discuss about very difficult issues.
You are young beekeeper, almost without experience. Even your hives are in danger to collapse down for fhysical resons.
You opinions (not knowledge) is not worth what you suppose. It do not make progress in beekeeping.
Beekeeping is not so primitive area of knowledge that every boy can make good questions.
I have saved this pronounce because it hurts you so much. But I must say not for you but all those 20 guys which now
share this "emotional base knowledge". 

I try to keep my fingers off from this forum but often this wisdom goes too far here.
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Mici
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2007, 11:21:12 AM »

you say he has regressed bees, and you tried them out, but you weren't satisfied with temper. now correct me if i'm wrong but i think that temper has little to do with mite resistance. so eventually if they were selected, they'd be ok? or what you wanted to say is that italians are resistanc, but you don't want them?

big bee, more honey? i thought this was a joke? are you sure?

hey, the fact is Ed and Dee Lusby spent decades to find a way to fight mites, lost houndreds of bee colonyes, and finally figured out that SC is the key, and are succesfully beekeeping for how long? more than decade i think. now, it's not scientific, but it's a FACT.
scientist also say CO2 makes global warming, but the FACT is it doesn't. scientist are no better than politics, give them the money and tell them what to say. soled out soles!!


finsky, very few members of this forum MIX natural beekeeping with big honey production, non the less it is a hobbyist forum.

no, last year it was varoa for sure, for example my menthor said that when he opened the hives in spring there was an inch thick varoa carpet on the bottom. so actually last year we got "rid of" of varoa non-tolerant gene pool. but by no chance i meant this is the solution, i just mentioned the gene pool just got a bit varoa hardier.
honey dew...that's why all beeks feed sugar, simply can't let the honeydew honey in. drought also isn't a problem, at least not around here, last year it was really dry, close to two months without a single drop of rain, yet honey yield was EXCEPTIONAL, one in..40 years.

2-3 years you say...i doubt my hives would withstand that long. plus, a friend of mine is observing the natural cycle of varoa, so far he estimated that varoa strikes really hard every 4 years, but i don't know how true that is, i'd just say that varoa is/are like pirates or something, they multiply and multiply and multiply until they go down with their hosts. of course a few hosts survive and the story is at it's beggining.multiply, multiply...

i know that my experience count very little/nothing, that's why i almost always say, that i've read that, i've heard that...now i'll make sure i say that, IF i'll give any advice, but hey, i usually just say it would be good to use starter strips, which actually is, they build them just perfectly! it don't hurt one bit.
finsky you didn't offend me, really, i'm glad i have at least one that tells me "to calm down", hehe.


you know what, no beekeeping forum can't trully live in all diversity, why? because almost every beek thinks HIS way of doing is THE ONLY right way to do a thing, period! i know, i mean just when i look at our (Slovenian) forum..
SC prevailed on this forum.
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Finsky
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2007, 12:12:21 PM »

but i think that temper has little to do with mite resistance.

Ofcourse.  That bee race has blood from Elgon mountain Kenya and it happens have nasty nature.


.
Quote
to say is that italians are resistanc, but you don't want them?.

Italians have no serious resistancy. I have not met.

However Italians are best honey bees in the world and I like them. I handeled handled mites 20 years with chemicals and I do not need resistency. Everything is under control.

But I got good genes from Elgon bees to my stock: pollen activity, rapid spring development and toleancy against chalk brood.


.
Quote
hey, the fact is Ed and Dee Lusby spent decades to find a way to fight mites, lost houndreds of bee colonyes,.

Many have met Ed but how many have accept his style. There is something mysterious and one excplanation is that he has tame Africanisez beestock.

I do not want to loose 10 or hundreds colonies. I ahev only 25 now.

Ed's method to allow swarming is the biiggest mistake in beekeeping. Ed is Ed. he like swarming like Michael, but it is worst what bees may have.


But Mici, however you need basic knowledge to understand big issues. It is not enough that you pick some "facts" and mimic them like parrot .

If you like to nurse bees in natural way, say it. But dont' offer your 200 years old systems to anothers who want to live this day life and use best knowledge what humankind can offer.

 
Quote
so actually last year we got "rid of" of varoa non-tolerant gene pool.

You don't understand what is genepool. I can see it from that sentence. Very few understand it. It is as difficult as amino acids.

Quote
close to two months without a single drop of rain, yet honey yield was .

We have same. We had 20 mm rain in my area during 4 months. But honey yield was expe EXCEPTIONAL. When allways yield is finish at the end of July, then it gegun. Bees foraged honey dew whole August. Never happened that.

Quote
so far he estimated that varoa strikes really hard every 4 years,

Never heard and never noticed.


but i don't know how true that is, i'd just say that varoa is/are like pirates or something, they multiply and multiply and multiply until they go down with their hosts. of course a few hosts survive and the story is at it's beggining.multiply, multiply...

Quote
i know that my experience count very little/nothing, that's why i almost always say, that i've read that, i've heard that...now i'll make sure i say that, IF i'll give any advice, but hey, i usually just say it would be good to use starter strips, which actually is, they build them just perfectly! it don't hurt one bit.
finsky you didn't offend me, really, i'm glad i have at least one that tells me "to calm down", hehe.


Go on. I wrote about varroa and oxalic acid the whole year, and I noticed from guy's wrintings that it was all vain.

I wrote in British and in Beesource forum how to use oxalic acid and they learned.  Knowledge has been in Europe many years.

Varroa is under control and now many countries have made hard work to get rid off AFB.

I have seen that chalk brood have rised in many countries. Before it was said that it does not kill hives. Now it is said that it makes severe losses in yields.

.
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Mici
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2007, 12:30:54 PM »

you are right, i'm nothing but a parrot, but with all the best intentions!

you don't have to loose 10 or hundreds of colonies like Lusby's did, they lost them during trying to figure out the way, now you can use the knowledge they aquired so you would loose as little as possible, if any.

gene-pool, your probably right, but help me understand it. i thought that gene-pool is nothing else but the whole population, so by eliminating a part of that population you are eliminating a part of the gene-pool.
if not, what is it?

well finsky, what can i say, guilty as charged! i want to use as little chemicals as possible, i will try achiving it, and so far i advised people who asked about it, but i advised on other peoples observations/experience. i will stop doing it, until i have my own experience. deal?
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