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Jerrymac
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2007, 04:26:24 PM »

Why on earth does an individual need for example,  a 50mm long rifle?

You answered that question before you asked it.

Our 2ndA right tp possess arms were designed to prevent the government from being the only group armed.

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein
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« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2007, 04:42:44 PM »

Si vis pacem, para bellum!
the oldest of proverbs are orientated this way, the previous says: if you want peace, prepare for war. and there are at least dozen more like it. and from what i see, it has come that far, that you have to be ready even in your own country, there are obviusly "inner foes"
that's why i don't believe those hipies and always "fight" them.

although i do agree with Konasdad to a certain point, but hell if at least teachers and school personal WHO wanted (like someone suggested before) were armed it would make a hell of a difference. i also saw this film the other day, holywood production and this school had X-ray  and metal detector, not such a stupid idea.
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kathyp
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« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2007, 05:03:30 PM »

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Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
i like that smiley

there are things we can do.  we can go back to locking wing nuts up in institutions.  it is neither kind to the patient, nor fair to society, to turn them loose and hope they will take meds and go to counseling.

parents of college students can be better informed about the activities and health of the students.  i know this is a big privacy thing, but if the kid is claimed on the taxes and the parents are footing the bill, they ought to have better access to info.  in a functioning family, family support is more effective than psych referral. 
if a student has mental health issues, they should be expelled or suspended until they can pass an extensive psych eval.  these evals should be periodic after re-admittance to campus.  any missed appointments or infractions of agreement should result in immediate and permanent expulsion with a warning to campus security about the person.

those students/instructors who wish to, should be allowed to carry concealed after having passed an evaluation of their weapons knowledge.  if Patti Nielson had been able to pull a gun from her purse or desk, Columbine would have been less of a massacre. 

parents should be held responsible for the actions of their children when it can be shown that they had or should have had knowledge of what their child was doing.  this would have applied to the kinkle kid here in oregon, and to the Columbine shooters. 

collateral damage is always a possibility when you take out a shooter.  even so, if this nut could have been stopped after the first couple of shots...even if there was an accidental shooting, lives still would have been saved.  if it were your child in that class, would you not want an armed classmate or instructor at least giving your kid a fighting chance to survive?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2007, 06:16:20 PM »

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

An armed society can also be one that lives in consistent fear.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2007, 08:50:47 PM »

If you want to live in constant fear remove all means of defending yourself or your loved ones.

I'm a retired cop, I've had to make the decission to shoot or not in a fraction of a second.  I have yet to shoot anyone.  The guy who came the closest to my shooting him was a burglar who came out of a warehouse with an electric drill in his hand.  At 3am under the street lights it looked like a gun.  I caught the tang of the hammer with my thumb as the trigger had already been tripped.  I've also had a cap gun pointed at me (as well as real guns) and know the difference.

I carry concealed.  I have no intention of being somebody elses unintentional victim.  Kathyp and I are on the same page on this one.  I am not afraid but I'm not stupid or overly trusting and I've already had to make the decission more than once so I know I can make it again. 

I disagree with the notion that a handgun is only good for killing a person.  I've had to use one for more than that.  I'm a firm believer in Gun control is using both hands.  Outlaw guns and only outlaws will have guns.

When you can lay a loaded, cocked, pistol on a table had have it shoot someone without being touched I might buy the notiion that guns are dangerous. 
All my experience from the Army and Law Enforcement tells me that the gun is a tool and that it is people who are dangerous.  I've seen a lot more people killed by household knives, sissors, and heavy objects than killed by guns.  Does this mean all those items should be outlawed too?
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reinbeau
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« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2007, 09:14:31 PM »

NJ has some of the toughest gun control laws in our country, and per capita has less handgun homocides than most states. In fact, it is almost impossible to get a permit to carry in NJ. NJ also wont honor lawful gun ownership laws in a foreign state if traveling through NJ.

It appears this graph doesn't back up your statement about New Jersey, gun ownership and homocide.  Please let us know what you think of it.



Brian says

Quote
I've seen a lot more people killed by household knives, sissors, and heavy objects than killed by guns.  Does this mean all those items should be outlawed too?


What rings in my mind all the time are the words of Archie Bunker, to Gloria:  Would it make you feel any better, little girl, if they was all pushed outta windows?  evil

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« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2007, 09:31:55 PM »

Boy,
Is it hot in here or is it just me?
When guns are outlawed I have yet to see where the criminals have handed over there guns. If someone armed comes in my home I'd hate to have to club him with a ball bat or throw a shoe at him!
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« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2007, 09:34:49 PM »

What percent of the capital murder defendants were law abiding citizens?
Don't sound like self defense to me.
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2007, 09:51:34 PM »

buzzbee....we are just getting warmed up!  smiley

i have been watching the bits of this kids psychosis coming out on tv.  on thing ought to be said and i have not heard it:  i feel deeply for his parents.  we don't know much about them.  maybe they missed thing like everyone else did.  even so, i can't imagine the pain they must feel at this moment.

i do believe that parents should be held to account when they are negligent, but sometimes SH.

reinbeau, not good at this stuff...just practiced.  another useful skill my dad taught me was to debate.  he used to dump us off at the library when we were having a dispute and make us research the subject.  then he'd make us argue the opposing side.  it was a good way to get rid of us for a few hours and it kept us from shooting each other  smiley.

that, and my mother often called me "Mary, Mary......"

nice graph.  where did you find that?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2007, 10:11:26 PM »

A friend of mine wears a side arm out where he is at to shoot rattlers. or other unwanted critters. Ever had a vicious dog attack you? Don't you wish you had something then? Protection means just that.....Protection....and not just from people.

An armed society can also be one that lives in consistent fear.

Why? I have neighbors on both sides of me that go out shooting their guns quite often. Just the other day I thought the guy was setting off a string of fire crackers. He was just out there pulling the trigger as fast as he could just to see how much dirt he could kick up I guess, cause he sure had a wall of dust in the air from where the bullets hit the ground.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2007, 07:28:17 AM »


reinbeau, not good at this stuff...just practiced.  another useful skill my dad taught me was to debate.  he used to dump us off at the library when we were having a dispute and make us research the subject.  then he'd make us argue the opposing side.  it was a good way to get rid of us for a few hours and it kept us from shooting each other  smiley.
My whole family are a bunch of debaters.  The dinner table frequently got heated, but we never left in a huff, we kept talking until we couldn't talk anymore!  My father was a very right-wing conservative Republican, and in my youth I was, of course, a peace-loving, anti-war liberal (until I matured and finally figured it all out!) which made for some healthy debates.  The funny thing is as my dad got older (and sicker) he softened his stance on so many things.

Quote
that, and my mother often called me "Mary, Mary......"
Oh, my mom called me Mary Sunshine  grin

Quote
nice graph.  where did you find that?
We're active on another forum called Northeast Shooters.  That link came from this post., it's post #20.

We have a whole thread on ammunition for dealing with anti's.
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2007, 09:57:42 AM »

The graph is nice. Nj requires registration. Therefore, as compared to states that dont require registration, would disproportionately show gun ownership. I cant prove this fact, but I would imagine that a greater percentage of guns in NJ are registered than in many of those states that show low gun ownership versus gun violance. Many of the states which show low violance versus gunownership are more likel;y to not have their guns registered, be in area of our country is a family tradition and guns are handed down from family memeber to family mamber and would not be part of any graph. The reason this is important is this graph can only be compiled from gov't registration info. Otherwise a gun bought in Va. would be counted against Va. but actually be in NY. Also, in states that dont require purchasing info to be maintained indefinateley, how would you know about those guns weeks, years after purchase?. How about guns that are inherited? Where are they counted. Additionally, about 60% of my gun violance cases the gun is bought in Va or Pa. Why? Its too difficult to  buy one in NJ and its easier to buy one in Pa or Va. than look on the streets for a gun that might have already been used in a crime. Lastly, I am not personally advocating denying gun ownership to people. I am only suggesting that people walking around w/ concealed weapons would not make me feel more comfortable or safer. It is a tool that kills. Too many people cant be trusted with them. I have no idea how you decide who is fit for gun ownership and who is not beyond denying prior felons from ownership and people who are obviously mentally ill. I believe in gun education. But this will never change some of the horrible accidents that occur simply b/c they are in the house. Someone said what about knives, hammers etc. You're right. Compared to gun violance, I get a lot more of those cases. You cant believe the "weapons" I have represented people for having used. Bats, hammers, saws(electric and manual), knives, sweet potatoe pie right out of oven, golf clubs, numchucks, swords, shovels, bow and arrow, BB guns, branches, logs, rope etc etc. Which is why I dont personally advocate laws on this topic, just discussion. The're are too many people who are incapable of lawful and safe gun ownership. Most people cant drive correctly!

Mental health is often at the root of these situations and it appears in this one as well.I feel very badly for everyone involved. In my line of work, my mental health case-load has quintupled in the last ten years. It is a horrible unknown dilemma in our country. I have more questions then answers at this point. Most are harmless but disfunctional. Some are dangerous and dont play well with others and need to be kept seprate from society. But where are theses people families? Nowhere. I often call their parents and family members. They have disowned their own children, brothers and sisters and just left them for the "system" to handle. Pathetic. I have said my piece and wont respond further, but I did enjoy the "sparring" ladies and gents. Particularly like the graph, although I believe it to be flawed as many stats become with time and bias. No matter who uses them in support of their argument, me or the collective you. Like I said before, I like to walk down the middle of the road, theyr'es more room.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2007, 10:27:48 AM »

Because of modern medicine and just a whole lot of other things the natural selection does not apply to humans. A lot of these bad genes could have been weeded out a long time ago, but because of "compassion" people keep saving other people until we have all the bad genes and a bunch of crazies out there. Then being the compassionate people that we are we can't just take them out back and shoot them. (AIDS could have been halted a long time ago if it weren't for compassion). So the problems just keep getting worse.

My daughter destroyed my train of thought. But remember, unless you have a police officer as a conjoined twin, they can not protect you. You need a means to protect yourself.
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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2007, 10:33:08 AM »

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I like to walk down the middle of the road, theyr'es more room

you are also more apt to be hit by a truck   Wink

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2007, 10:44:56 AM »

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"compassion"

i used to have occasion to visit our hospitals psych ward.  it was a locked ward and many people were there because the court had ordered them in for evaluation.  they'd spend 3 days in, then be turned loose and be back in a couple of weeks. some were women with children.  many were young.  some illegal drug addicts.  all on meds.  i often wondered why the "civil rights" folks ever thought that it was better for these people to be out on the streets.  even 50 years ago, they would have been locked up forever.  the argument that better meds makes it possible for them to live on their own, only holds if they take the meds.  then there is the issue of breeding.  i don't mean to sound naziish, but many of these mental illnesses seem to run in families.  if we can't cure them, why do we keep turning them out?

some things to think about and probably no answers.

for me, this is not purely an abstract.  i have a niece who has been in and out of treatment, and should have been kept in...and my former daughter-in-law is a raving nut case.  fortunately my son has custody of the children, but we see signs of the mothers behavior in the daughter.  it makes me sick.

oh well, enough rambling for me also!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2007, 10:51:40 AM »

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I like to walk down the middle of the road, theyr'es more room

you are also more apt to be hit by a truck   Wink


And no a gun wont help me there either. As TWT says...BBahahabhabahahahah . Good one! I actually laughed so hard my sect asked me "whats up?" as I'm waiting on a verdict now and am crawling out of my skin waiting . thanx for the tension break. The first non-alcoholic strees reducer.
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« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2007, 02:25:10 PM »

Many of the states which show low violance versus gunownership are more likel;y to not have their guns registered, be in area of our country is a family tradition and guns are handed down from family memeber to family mamber and would not be part of any graph. The reason this is important is this graph can only be compiled from gov't registration info. Otherwise a gun bought in Va. would be counted against Va. but actually be in NY. Also, in states that dont require purchasing info to be maintained indefinateley, how would you know about those guns weeks, years after purchase?.
If you take the time to check out the info on the graph its pretty easy to see the states with the most guns and carry permits have the lowest crime rates. Places like Washington,D.C., Boston,NYC, L.A..Miami, Chicago that have the strictest gun laws but also have the highest crime rates. Kind of makes the fact that factors other than guns are more responsible for crime very obvious. The graph did BTW show all firearms permits which would have to include any legally acquired firearm which the permit holder chose to carry. This obviously would have to include guns that were inherited as well. Guns legally brought from VA. into N.Y. are required to be registered within so many days with the state by law. Failure to register said firearm is very illegal let alone commit a crime with it. If you need a link please let me know. I just don't have time to look it up right now. As far as keeping records after a firearm sale only four states in the nation require keeping a record longer than a year. I live in one of those states which is Massachusetts. In the other 46 states all the records are destroyed after a year. BATF also destroys the records as a result of John Ashcroft's rule change about 3 or 4 years ago. Hope this sheds some light on the subject for you. Smiley
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2007, 01:25:56 AM »

The writer of this article must have been reading this forum,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20070419/cm_rcp/feeling_safer_vs_being_safer;_ylt=An9KpEh4W12Zr1mSp2N5EDHMWM0F
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« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2007, 03:43:40 AM »

Thank God for freedom of speech, or we all would bee hauled off to a camp and shot... with GUNS!
Has any one here lived in a county were arming one's self is illegal? Where conversations are ease dropped upon or the downstair's neighbor
is an informant? Many of our families fled their homeland to come to America for that right. The criminal will always find a way to kill, be it gun, stick or a sharpened popsicle stick. I enjoy hearing all the voices on this forum. What I enjoy the most, is that we can express them. What happened in Va. and in all the other cases is sheer lunacy., an ailment of inner workings of the brain. It is not the gun. Yes it is available, so is a crossbow, a knife, poison and ultimately the human hands.
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« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2007, 03:57:25 AM »

You are correct. Its the person who does the damage.

For example, it would be very easy to belt a bus driver over the head and steer a bus with 50 people in it over a cliff. A nutter could slaughter the entire population of an old peoples home with a hamer.

If anything, this recent tragedy could lead to at least one armed guard in every school or public institution which would not be a bad thing. Deterrents are a good idea IMO.

I cant help thinking if there was one bloke with an automatic at that campus, the total would not be as high. SAS drill of "everybody down" wait 2 seconds then shoot everything standing usually works.

As many people go crazy overnight as go crazy over a period of time. Background checks are a good idea but can only do so much.

At the end of the day, there is just no stopping a nutter hell bent on destruction who picks a soft target unless you have some luck.

Lets hope the lessons learned from this event lead to some positive changes that will help prevent another.
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