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Author Topic: Cell size question  (Read 3251 times)
Finsky
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« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2007, 01:27:46 AM »

If you're not will to explore and learn from the experience, too bad

So you indentyfied it!  grin
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2007, 11:40:29 PM »

>There are so many believes in natural beekeeping that it cannot stand many basic facts.

The "basic facts" as I see it are that many of us are doing natural beekeeping and the bees are still alive.  If your "basic facts" were true, they would all be dead.
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Michael Bush
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Finsky
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2007, 12:07:03 AM »

>There are so many believes in natural beekeeping that it cannot stand many basic facts.

The "basic facts" as I see it are that many of us are doing natural beekeeping and the bees are still alive.  If your "basic facts" were true, they would all be dead.


If goal is "hive is alive" it is the lowest level of skills. - Yes it is question every spring in my yard.

One basic fact in beekeeping is that hives are many. They may have 2 boxes of bees or 9 boxes. 
Near me is a 82 old beekeepers whose hives are allways 1 or two boxes. They have been 25 years.
I dont accept even " 4 boxes alive".

To me threshold  of alive beehive is 6 boxes. It is hard to achieve.  I unite weak hives and queens may go to heaven pastures.

When I started beekeeping, most of beekeepers were "natural beekeepers" in Finland. They had cerbs, hives were about 5 langstroth frames, race was crossed German Black, swarms went and swarms arrived.

Once I had hive two years. It had 4 frames and it swarmed it it become bigger. Then it swarmed tolally and nothing stayed.

They were "local naturals". They disturbed good queens' mating ultill 1990 and then varroa killed them all.

This kind of beekeeping does not need any learning or philosophy. Many beekeepers said that they opened first time they hives in June. They were totally easy to nurse. Michael, even you cannot minimize work with them like our beekeepers made. If hive died then new swarm arrived to empty hive.

Cell size will not change this kind of beekeeping and they mostly had natural cells, because mice shewed combs and bees made them again. tongue

.
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Cindi
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2007, 12:49:16 AM »

How can this topic be kept alive?  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Finsky
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2007, 01:00:03 AM »

How can this topic be kept alive?  Cindi

You mean that arquing still continues?

In Finland we use to have only one truth, because only one can be expert. Then it is changed to another, almost opposite. I think that reason is 5 million people. In Germany and England they have 10 times more people and I have seen there 10 truths.

Then we come to USA which have 250 million people. How is it possible that that kind of nation try to keep only one truth?
After my calculations USA should have 50 truths even in beekeeping.



.
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2007, 05:37:19 PM »

>After my calculations USA should have 50 truths even in beekeeping.

And there you have it.  In the USA there are at least as many truths as there are geographical areas.  New England, Pacific North West, South East, Appalachia, Rocky Mountains, Great Plains (north and south), etc.  Add to that the different objectives that various hobby beekeepers have, the varity of commercial enterprizes, and you can easily come up with 50.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
Mici
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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2007, 06:39:20 PM »

wow finsky, i just can't believe what you just wrote?!??! cerbs in the 20th century!?!?!?! ah well...


anyway, i just wanted to say, i measured the cells, the ones that were directly under drone comb were somewhere between 5.4 and 5.2, and i even found a totaly SC comb, starting with 4.7 at the top, and this is the 5.4 generation of bees! the big bees!

i'll be darned!!! found one that's 4,1! ok..i didn't press the ruler against the comb but neither did i hold it far away from it

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Finsky
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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2007, 09:31:20 PM »

wow finsky, i just can't believe what you just wrote?!??! cerbs in the 20th century!?!?!?! ah well...


anyway, i just wanted to say, i measured the cells, the ones that were directly under drone comb were somewhere between 5.4 and 5.2, and i even found a totaly SC comb, starting with 4.7 at the top, and this is the 5.4 generation of bees! the big bees!

i'll be darned!!! found one that's 4,1! ok..i didn't press the ruler against the comb but neither did i hold it far away from it


Mici, go on measuring. According added value theory work can be devided into two part: productive work and waste. Productive work is such work part which you may sell and waste is only cost.

Toyota Corporation is now the most succesfull Car company. It's main value is "minimaze waste".

Waste is usually human work time, engine time, vehicle time, work sheduled wrong, material, energy, human knowledge, ideas which are not went true...

And the strawberry on the cake: After measuring is like praying on grave. It is too late and waste.

http://www.si.umich.edu/ICOS/Liker04.pdf

--->  Principle 8. Use only reliable, thoroughly tested technology that serves your
bees and beehive processes.


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Jerrymac
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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2007, 12:18:25 AM »

Waste? Like putting chemicals into a hive when you don't have to?
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Mici
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2007, 05:25:59 AM »

i measured just to see how they did, nothing more.

hehe toyota...
you know, when japs started making cars, they already had high standards, such as "airtight cars", so..a prototype was approved only if a cat was found dead after spending a night in it.
of course yugoslavia looked up to japs, so...they had the same ambitions, but after the first few prototype testings, they realised that finding the cat IN the car will do.  grin
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2007, 03:14:42 PM »

The point is, Finsky, if what you believe is true my bees are dead (which they are not) and Mici, (and hundreds of other small cell beekeepers) can't measure in mm, which I'm sure he can.

What you are stating as facts we are observing as untrue.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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The Dregs
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2007, 06:12:03 PM »

I have to say that as someone new here and to beekeeping, reading Finnsky's arguments has been the single most educating thing on these forums. Everyone brings their A-game to these threads.
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Understudy
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2007, 09:10:32 PM »

And at the end of the day everyone gets together and empties the pub of it's beer.

 grin

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Cindi
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2007, 10:22:32 AM »

The Dregs!!!!  Right on, you know our Finsky and how he is.  He is a valuable member of the forum and does add some wonderful pieces of his mind and links to support his stuff.  Have a wonderful day, life and everything else that is beautiful.  Good health to all too.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Mklangelo
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2007, 10:32:46 AM »

They chew out the extra cocoons to keep the cell size at 4.9mm


That is true not at all. Bees make "natural cells". I ahev measured them in my hives 5,3.

When combs are old or moldy, bees chew them away and make new and they are 5,3 if they are used to build that size. If they use to build 4,8, they do it.

It is not universal order that bees want to make smaller cells than beekeper. In most  countries it is measured 5,3 mm.

Bee breeding started when man invited frames. So it is possible to change a queen and selcet queens.

Great progress arised when man started to use instrumental insemination 60 years ago.

When man has selected productive bees, the size of bees has grown 10%. It is same with Apis cerana.

If you follow the course of domestical animals, they are not same as in nature.

Some have become smaller. Finnish reindeer is smaller than it's wild relatives. Russian reindeers are figger than Finnsih.

Salmons are now smaller than before because net fishing catches biggest salmons first. So, Salmon is regressed. 90% of our salmons in nature are man breeded.


********

When you live among other beekeepers, it is difficult to keep own strain of bees.  That is why I suggest that don't waste time with that matter. It is vain effort.


When we had 20 years ago feral bees (german black) it was really difficult to keep yard in satisfactory condition. Those mad ferals were so quick in  mating that most of new queens had german black workers. - Awfull. I nursed them 30 years. Nothing good to say, but it was that time. Then Varroa killed  feral bees. I have not seen them for 15 years.

In Tasmania there are very mean German Black feral stock. It have not changed even if Italian have brought tens of years to Tasmania.

German Black was the first race which was brought to USA. Do you have them any more?

.





I ordered Carnys but the queens are almost completely black.  The queens are very young so I don't know if that is why they are so black.

I'll put a picture up as soon as I get my main computer repaired.  Parts are comming today...
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Cindi
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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2007, 10:08:02 AM »

Mklangelo.  Carniolan queens are very very dark.  They are very beautiful.  I have one that is still leading her colony, that is the one that I overwintered.  When I look at her walking over the comb, I get that weird lump in my throat because I am so proud that she came through the winter.  Is the same queen that I hived the package with last year I am sure.  She looks identical.  She is a prolific layer, I know that from last year and seeing what she is doing this year, I cheer her on.  Just a little bit of my two cents about your dark, dark queen.  Have a beautiful day, wonderful life, good healthy wishes for all.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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