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Author Topic: Cell size question  (Read 3244 times)
dlmarti
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« on: April 17, 2007, 12:10:44 AM »

When doing my research I keep reading the same two sentences;
1. Older comb contains more drone cells.
2. As comb gets older (used more) the comb size gets smaller.

Given that drone cells are larger, how are both of these sentences true?  huh
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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2007, 12:25:50 AM »

When doing my research I keep reading the same two sentences;
1. Older comb contains more drone cells.
Not true. The age of comb does not affect the number of drones.
Quote
2. As comb gets older (used more) the comb size gets smaller.

Given that drone cells are larger, how are both of these sentences true?  huh
True, older comb does have smaller cell sizes. The bees will make drone comb as they need to either in the form of burr comb or some other means.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2007, 10:54:51 PM »

Assuming you start with worker foundation, bees, over time, will rework parts of the comb into drone comb.  The longer they have it the more they have reworked.  The ones they have not reworked get smaller from generations of cocoons.  At least until they finally get down to natural size then they chew them back out as the cocoons build up.
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2007, 08:30:38 AM »

The ones they have not reworked get smaller from generations of cocoons.  At least until they finally get down to natural size then they chew them back out as the cocoons build up.


Michael are you saying that when the cell size gets down to what some call natural size that the bees chew them back out to a larger size or they chew out the cocoons only when the cell size becomes less than what is termed natural size?  huh
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2007, 09:23:26 AM »

They chew out the extra cocoons to keep the cell size at 4.9mm

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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dlmarti
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2007, 10:21:22 AM »

Thanks guys.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2007, 02:44:17 PM »

>Michael are you saying that when the cell size gets down to what some call natural size that the bees chew them back out to a larger size or they chew out the cocoons only when the cell size becomes less than what is termed natural size?

Yes.  Exactly.  They may let them get down to about 4.4mm and then chew them out to about 4.7mm but that's about their tolerance for smaller sizes.

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Finsky
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« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2007, 03:01:42 PM »

They chew out the extra cocoons to keep the cell size at 4.9mm


That is true not at all. Bees make "natural cells". I ahev measured them in my hives 5,3.

When combs are old or moldy, bees chew them away and make new and they are 5,3 if they are used to build that size. If they use to build 4,8, they do it.

It is not universal order that bees want to make smaller cells than beekeper. In most  countries it is measured 5,3 mm.

Bee breeding started when man invited frames. So it is possible to change a queen and selcet queens.

Great progress arised when man started to use instrumental insemination 60 years ago.

When man has selected productive bees, the size of bees has grown 10%. It is same with Apis cerana.

If you follow the course of domestical animals, they are not same as in nature.

Some have become smaller. Finnish reindeer is smaller than it's wild relatives. Russian reindeers are figger than Finnsih.

Salmons are now smaller than before because net fishing catches biggest salmons first. So, Salmon is regressed. 90% of our salmons in nature are man breeded.


********

When you live among other beekeepers, it is difficult to keep own strain of bees.  That is why I suggest that don't waste time with that matter. It is vain effort.


When we had 20 years ago feral bees (german black) it was really difficult to keep yard in satisfactory condition. Those mad ferals were so quick in  mating that most of new queens had german black workers. - Awfull. I nursed them 30 years. Nothing good to say, but it was that time. Then Varroa killed  feral bees. I have not seen them for 15 years.

In Tasmania there are very mean German Black feral stock. It have not changed even if Italian have brought tens of years to Tasmania.

German Black was the first race which was brought to USA. Do you have them any more?

.


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Jerrymac
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« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2007, 03:44:01 PM »

That is true not at all. Bees make "natural cells". I ahev measured them in my hives 5,3.

I thought you gave your bees foundation because it used too much honey to make all that wax. Now you are saying you let the bees do it naturally?
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Finsky
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« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2007, 04:00:00 PM »


 Now you are saying you let the bees do it naturally?

Time with you goes with arguing, do I use foundations or not? - Do I know it myself. Two things I remember it was something like dementia and .... I dont remember that second   ....

I have situations where bees have made their own combs. I have forgotten a frame home and I cannot put one in place.
I have reared queens and they have done combs in empty space.
Burr between brames
Their own extar combs when I give foundations and they have opportunity to trie their own.

I have cut brood comb zone off and bees repair the hole in fall with worker cells.

The black is same as bees chew away old combs. It is normal if you keep combs too long.

40 years ago cerbs were quite usual in our country. They had only natural combs in cerbs. I ahve never heard that taht system was something special. Yield was something 10-20 kg per hive . Now I get 80 kg.
Should I go back 40 years or even 200 years like Michael proposes.
.

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« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2007, 05:56:24 PM »

So you really don't understand regressing bees do you. And I have to wonder why you would ever have bothered to measure the cell size since you think all is as it should be.
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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2007, 11:44:38 PM »

So you really don't understand regressing bees do you. And I have to wonder why you would ever have bothered to measure the cell size since you think all is as it should be.

Heh heh. Then I am able to say that "I know, I have researched". I am glad that my bees are not regressing themselves.
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« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2007, 12:14:00 AM »

Then I am able to say that "I know, I have researched". I am glad that my bees are not regressing themselves.

What have you researched? Not small/natural cell for sure. The only research I have ever seen posted was a very flawed experiment. Yet you post them like there are no flaws in those so called studies.

You know nothing about small cell. Never tried it, yet you put it down every chance you get.

Another great one you proclaim is Varroa is not a problem. Varroa is your friend. Yet you keep pumping oxalic acid into your hives. Why? To get rid of your friends?

Some one says they want to keep bees without having to pour chemicals into their hives, and you tell them they can't. That there is no way to do it. And yet there are many people here and on other lists that have kept bees for many years with no treatments.
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Finsky
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« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2007, 12:29:39 AM »


 And yet there are many people here and on other lists that have kept bees for many years with no treatments.

Good luck to them! To keep bees and get honey are very different matters.

I am able to read your official reports about varroa and they are not nice readings. Pour oxalic acid? Trickle or spray are right communicating terms .

Sure. Whole world is fingting against varroa and you say that "many manage for many years with no treatments" . Very funny. I have seen so much mites and bees that it is really funny. Don't teach duck to swim. Remember that.

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As every one can see, it is so productive to discuss with small cell guys. First year beekeeper can abandon all earlier skills in beekeeping.

"When you know only one thing, you know all".

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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2007, 03:10:08 AM »

it's good to see you back posting finsky!
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2007, 11:15:40 AM »

Sure. Whole world is fingting against varroa and you say that "many manage for many years with no treatments" . Very funny. I have seen so much mites and bees that it is really funny.

Yes I believe there are a few on the Beemaster forum that make this claim. But I guess you don't believe them.

"When you know only one thing, you know all".

Then perhaps you need to go learn about another way to keep bees.
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« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2007, 01:27:57 PM »

>Sure. Whole world is fingting against varroa and you say that "many manage for many years with no treatments" .

I know a lot of people who have managed for many years with no treatments.  Why does that no interest you?

>Very funny. I have seen so much mites and bees that it is really funny.

I found it amazing and it's why I went that way.

> Don't teach duck to swim.

Or bees hot to fly or bees how to make comb, or bees how to handle Varroa...
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Michael Bush
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2007, 11:52:33 PM »

The best teacher in beekeeping is not research but experience.  Try it, then if doesn't work trash it.  All the reports about small cell have been very limited in scope and therefore inconclusive. 

How many shots at a hoop with a basketball does it take before you make a basket?  Once, the very first time?  A 100 times before you get the knack?   Hit and Miss?  I'm a 100 times man myself. 
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Finsky
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« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2007, 12:53:31 AM »

The best teacher in beekeeping is not research but experience.  Try it, ........

And Brian is telling how to learn things?

Why I am hanging in internet? I have dated my old knowledge with new information. So I thought that do I take that information to grave?  I started to deliver information, what I have found. BUt I can se that beekeepers do not what that knowledge because nature takes care their bees grin

Most of beekeepers are not able to read, select or understand researched information. However they try to clarify to them selves WHY things happens. So they do their own "inventions" in their small head. That is experience.  They do not give up their old attitudes.

Why most? Because the average age of beekeepers is 60 years. And it is not so necessary to learn......old memories are becoming clearer....

For excample, 10 years ago it was found that there are no worker queen and shaking bees on ground is vain.  Brian, don't offer it any more.

Even if I have put those documents here to read, many here offer that old believer's trick.

Natural beekeepers have made their own belief and it is OK , but when they start to claim others "chemical beekeepers", I will become angry.

There are so many believes in natural beekeeping that it cannot stand many basic facts.  It is mostly lack of knowledge.

To try small cells  - Why?



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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2007, 01:22:03 AM »

From a practial standpoint, honey yield being to main goal, experience is more important than research.

Good forage, proper beekeeping practices, natural pest control methods and I can get 300 lbs of honey per hive per year.  I hear your story about academics.  Sometimes a person can become so educated they forget common sense (not saying you have).  If you're not will to explore and learn from the experience, too bad.  Personally I find the hands on method more substansive than reading technical journals.  I, too, used to doubt some of the things I now advocate because I didn't let a paper education get in the way of hands on experience.

Lets agree to disagree on this one. 
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« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2007, 01:27:46 AM »

If you're not will to explore and learn from the experience, too bad

So you indentyfied it!  grin
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2007, 11:40:29 PM »

>There are so many believes in natural beekeeping that it cannot stand many basic facts.

The "basic facts" as I see it are that many of us are doing natural beekeeping and the bees are still alive.  If your "basic facts" were true, they would all be dead.
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Finsky
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« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2007, 12:07:03 AM »

>There are so many believes in natural beekeeping that it cannot stand many basic facts.

The "basic facts" as I see it are that many of us are doing natural beekeeping and the bees are still alive.  If your "basic facts" were true, they would all be dead.


If goal is "hive is alive" it is the lowest level of skills. - Yes it is question every spring in my yard.

One basic fact in beekeeping is that hives are many. They may have 2 boxes of bees or 9 boxes. 
Near me is a 82 old beekeepers whose hives are allways 1 or two boxes. They have been 25 years.
I dont accept even " 4 boxes alive".

To me threshold  of alive beehive is 6 boxes. It is hard to achieve.  I unite weak hives and queens may go to heaven pastures.

When I started beekeeping, most of beekeepers were "natural beekeepers" in Finland. They had cerbs, hives were about 5 langstroth frames, race was crossed German Black, swarms went and swarms arrived.

Once I had hive two years. It had 4 frames and it swarmed it it become bigger. Then it swarmed tolally and nothing stayed.

They were "local naturals". They disturbed good queens' mating ultill 1990 and then varroa killed them all.

This kind of beekeeping does not need any learning or philosophy. Many beekeepers said that they opened first time they hives in June. They were totally easy to nurse. Michael, even you cannot minimize work with them like our beekeepers made. If hive died then new swarm arrived to empty hive.

Cell size will not change this kind of beekeeping and they mostly had natural cells, because mice shewed combs and bees made them again. tongue

.
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Cindi
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« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2007, 12:49:16 AM »

How can this topic be kept alive?  Cindi
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« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2007, 01:00:03 AM »

How can this topic be kept alive?  Cindi

You mean that arquing still continues?

In Finland we use to have only one truth, because only one can be expert. Then it is changed to another, almost opposite. I think that reason is 5 million people. In Germany and England they have 10 times more people and I have seen there 10 truths.

Then we come to USA which have 250 million people. How is it possible that that kind of nation try to keep only one truth?
After my calculations USA should have 50 truths even in beekeeping.



.
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« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2007, 05:37:19 PM »

>After my calculations USA should have 50 truths even in beekeeping.

And there you have it.  In the USA there are at least as many truths as there are geographical areas.  New England, Pacific North West, South East, Appalachia, Rocky Mountains, Great Plains (north and south), etc.  Add to that the different objectives that various hobby beekeepers have, the varity of commercial enterprizes, and you can easily come up with 50.
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« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2007, 06:39:20 PM »

wow finsky, i just can't believe what you just wrote?!??! cerbs in the 20th century!?!?!?! ah well...


anyway, i just wanted to say, i measured the cells, the ones that were directly under drone comb were somewhere between 5.4 and 5.2, and i even found a totaly SC comb, starting with 4.7 at the top, and this is the 5.4 generation of bees! the big bees!

i'll be darned!!! found one that's 4,1! ok..i didn't press the ruler against the comb but neither did i hold it far away from it

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Finsky
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« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2007, 09:31:20 PM »

wow finsky, i just can't believe what you just wrote?!??! cerbs in the 20th century!?!?!?! ah well...


anyway, i just wanted to say, i measured the cells, the ones that were directly under drone comb were somewhere between 5.4 and 5.2, and i even found a totaly SC comb, starting with 4.7 at the top, and this is the 5.4 generation of bees! the big bees!

i'll be darned!!! found one that's 4,1! ok..i didn't press the ruler against the comb but neither did i hold it far away from it


Mici, go on measuring. According added value theory work can be devided into two part: productive work and waste. Productive work is such work part which you may sell and waste is only cost.

Toyota Corporation is now the most succesfull Car company. It's main value is "minimaze waste".

Waste is usually human work time, engine time, vehicle time, work sheduled wrong, material, energy, human knowledge, ideas which are not went true...

And the strawberry on the cake: After measuring is like praying on grave. It is too late and waste.

http://www.si.umich.edu/ICOS/Liker04.pdf

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bees and beehive processes.


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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2007, 12:18:25 AM »

Waste? Like putting chemicals into a hive when you don't have to?
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2007, 05:25:59 AM »

i measured just to see how they did, nothing more.

hehe toyota...
you know, when japs started making cars, they already had high standards, such as "airtight cars", so..a prototype was approved only if a cat was found dead after spending a night in it.
of course yugoslavia looked up to japs, so...they had the same ambitions, but after the first few prototype testings, they realised that finding the cat IN the car will do.  grin
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« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2007, 03:14:42 PM »

The point is, Finsky, if what you believe is true my bees are dead (which they are not) and Mici, (and hundreds of other small cell beekeepers) can't measure in mm, which I'm sure he can.

What you are stating as facts we are observing as untrue.
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The Dregs
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« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2007, 06:12:03 PM »

I have to say that as someone new here and to beekeeping, reading Finnsky's arguments has been the single most educating thing on these forums. Everyone brings their A-game to these threads.
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« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2007, 09:10:32 PM »

And at the end of the day everyone gets together and empties the pub of it's beer.

 grin

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2007, 10:22:32 AM »

The Dregs!!!!  Right on, you know our Finsky and how he is.  He is a valuable member of the forum and does add some wonderful pieces of his mind and links to support his stuff.  Have a wonderful day, life and everything else that is beautiful.  Good health to all too.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2007, 10:32:46 AM »

They chew out the extra cocoons to keep the cell size at 4.9mm


That is true not at all. Bees make "natural cells". I ahev measured them in my hives 5,3.

When combs are old or moldy, bees chew them away and make new and they are 5,3 if they are used to build that size. If they use to build 4,8, they do it.

It is not universal order that bees want to make smaller cells than beekeper. In most  countries it is measured 5,3 mm.

Bee breeding started when man invited frames. So it is possible to change a queen and selcet queens.

Great progress arised when man started to use instrumental insemination 60 years ago.

When man has selected productive bees, the size of bees has grown 10%. It is same with Apis cerana.

If you follow the course of domestical animals, they are not same as in nature.

Some have become smaller. Finnish reindeer is smaller than it's wild relatives. Russian reindeers are figger than Finnsih.

Salmons are now smaller than before because net fishing catches biggest salmons first. So, Salmon is regressed. 90% of our salmons in nature are man breeded.


********

When you live among other beekeepers, it is difficult to keep own strain of bees.  That is why I suggest that don't waste time with that matter. It is vain effort.


When we had 20 years ago feral bees (german black) it was really difficult to keep yard in satisfactory condition. Those mad ferals were so quick in  mating that most of new queens had german black workers. - Awfull. I nursed them 30 years. Nothing good to say, but it was that time. Then Varroa killed  feral bees. I have not seen them for 15 years.

In Tasmania there are very mean German Black feral stock. It have not changed even if Italian have brought tens of years to Tasmania.

German Black was the first race which was brought to USA. Do you have them any more?

.





I ordered Carnys but the queens are almost completely black.  The queens are very young so I don't know if that is why they are so black.

I'll put a picture up as soon as I get my main computer repaired.  Parts are comming today...
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If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside.
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Cindi
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Gender: Female
Posts: 9827

Location: Grindrod, B.C. Canada


« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2007, 10:08:02 AM »

Mklangelo.  Carniolan queens are very very dark.  They are very beautiful.  I have one that is still leading her colony, that is the one that I overwintered.  When I look at her walking over the comb, I get that weird lump in my throat because I am so proud that she came through the winter.  Is the same queen that I hived the package with last year I am sure.  She looks identical.  She is a prolific layer, I know that from last year and seeing what she is doing this year, I cheer her on.  Just a little bit of my two cents about your dark, dark queen.  Have a beautiful day, wonderful life, good healthy wishes for all.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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