Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
September 22, 2014, 06:54:06 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Beemaster's official FACEBOOK page
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: 2nd queen released.. I think.  (Read 3661 times)
AllanJ
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 231


Location: Mineral, Virginia


« on: April 14, 2007, 05:55:08 PM »

I installed a package on 3/31. After 10 days, no sign of eggs. I re-checked on day 12 and again saw no eggs. I re-queened on day 12. The queen cage had about 4 attendants. Since we are expecting bad weather tomorrow and Monday, I decided to check today evening though it was barely 55f.

All but 1 of the bees in the cage was dead - natural occurrence or killed through the screen??

There was a huge mass of bees still on the cage and I 'think' the one remaining was the queen.  I had put a nail through the candy but saw that the candy had not been eaten through and in fact the nail hole was covered slightly.

While I was standing thinking what to do, I kept hearing what sounded like a high pitched whine  ??  The queen ??

Since so little effort had been made to get into the cage I decided to pop the cork out of the none candy end. Next time I could see what was happening, there was about 8 bees in the cage. I am not sure if I did the right thing at this point (or any point to be honest), but I decided to pop the staple to the screen and release all the bees out of the cage. 

I could still hear the high pitched whine after the release.  I closed up and left.

 huh






Logged
acbs
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 73


Location: Lowder, Illinois


« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2007, 06:59:23 PM »

Could your "high pitched whine" be described as a high pitched kazoo in small bursts?  The only time we have ever heard queen's piping is when there has been more than one queen in the box.  One of them will kill the other (my guess would be the old queen will kill the new one, or the loyal bees will ball her).
Can't explain why you don't have eggs after 12 days, though, cause it does sound like you already had a queen. 
Logged

If I know how many hives I've got, I haven't got enough.
Unknown
TwT
Senior Forum
Global Moderator
Galactic Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3384


Location: Walker, La.

Ted


« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2007, 07:12:50 PM »

were did the bee's come from? some times but rare a package producer will shake bee's from a hive that has just swarmed or superseded (he may not have known this), you could have had a virgin queen in the package that hasn't started laying yet, she might not have even made her mating flight yet! I would watch the hive for a week or 2 and see if anything shows up like eggs or larva......... just my 2 penny's worth!!!!!
Logged

THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

Never be afraid to try something new.
Amateurs built the ark,
Professionals built the Titanic
AllanJ
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 231


Location: Mineral, Virginia


« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2007, 07:40:40 PM »

They came from Rossmans and the noise was little bursts.  I hived the original package onto Permacomb and the bees are happily using it for nectar and pollen.  Maybe the queen rejected it? 

Also, something else strange. I was using the high top feeder from Mann Lake. This is a plastic construction with a 1cm gap around the sides.


I noticed that there was about quarter of the hive packed up tightly in this gap.

They did not appear to be doing anything..  when I eventually knocked them out, I noticed nothing up there. No food, no comb, nothing. I was wondering if maybe the original queen was packed up there and not able to do anything.. is that possible?  packed tight in the corner and unable to get out? 

Anyway, after I had put the new queen cage in the hive, I decided to get rid of the Mann Lake Top Feeder. I have found it to be less than satisfactory. Lots of dead bees at the bottom of the mesh in the syrup and the 1cm gap all around the edge.

In case the new queen also rejected the Permacomb, for added insurance I added a medium of small cell foundation. When I released the new queen the bees were actively working the foundation.

I just looked up queen piping..

"Mated queens may briefly pipe after being released in a hive."

(she was piping whilst still in the cage)

and
"It is postulated that the piping is a form of battle cry announcing to competing queens and the workers their willingness to fight."

So.. now I know I did have 1 queen alive in the hive when I closed up.. I just do not know if there might be a second queen..





Logged
AllanJ
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 231


Location: Mineral, Virginia


« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2007, 07:46:37 PM »

I just found an audio file of queen piping..
http://hemingwaysouthcarolina.com/more_galleries.htm

and it is the same as I heard..
Logged
MarkR
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 167


Location: Charlottesville, VA.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2007, 08:17:29 PM »

I was just reading about that in the book I bought today (Dewey's textbook, great book by the way).  Very cool.  When I picked up my package a few weeks ago, I also picked up a couple of queens for a guy here in town.  They piped all the way back home.  Quite amusing.

I chickened out of releasing my queen today (it was down around 40 degrees when I got home), but unless it's just too windy, I'll do it tomorrow (supposed to be in the upper 50's in the afternoon).

So today's workshop totally blew my mind.  Too much for me to process at the moment, but I'm sure it'll be more meaningful as time goes by.  To those not in the area, it was a one day short course by Dwey Caron and Rick Fells.  A great time!

Mark
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13664


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2007, 10:21:41 AM »

>"It is postulated that the piping is a form of battle cry announcing to competing queens and the workers their willingness to fight."

So when she says "zooot zooot zooot" she really says "You want some if this!!!"
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
AllanJ
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 231


Location: Mineral, Virginia


« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2007, 10:41:03 AM »

>"It is postulated that the piping is a form of battle cry announcing to competing queens and the workers their willingness to fight."

So when she says "zooot zooot zooot" she really says "You want some if this!!!"

So it is highly likely that the original queen was buried somewhere in the hive..

1. Would the workers have killed the new queen after I finally release her from the cage, or would they let the queens fight it out?

2. The attendeds were dead in the cage, would the workers have killed them through the screen?

3. I understand how a new queen will kill other queen cells.. but what happens when 2 queens meet in a hive. Do they fight and try and sting each other?  Chances of losing them both?  Will the workers get involved?

 huh

Thanks.
Logged
Cindi
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 9827

Location: Grindrod, B.C. Canada


« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2007, 11:18:12 AM »

Allan, like everyone said, that was the queen piping, so she is undoubtedly alive and well.

I had an experience last year with hearing the "queen's voice".  I described this experience in detail in a post quite some time ago on this forum.  It was an experience I will never forget.  I will recap briefly.

A buddy and I were cutting out queen cells, he needed some.  We were standing at the apiary, I had a frame in my hand and we heard a noise.  I can only describe it as it sounded like a banty chicken calling.  Something like, brak, brak, brak, and he asked me if I had any chickens over near the apiary.  No, they were on the other side a ways away.  I listened, this noise was coming from the frame that I was holding.  There must have been a newly emerged queen on it and she was issuing her battle cry.  She was gonna hunt and destroy the queens still in their cells.  Little did she know, we had the other queen cells, carefully cut out, she had no one to destroy.

So, my buddy put the queen cells into a little tiny box he had lined with fabric to keep the ladies still in their prisons, warm.  When he was going to leave to go home he peeked inside the box.  A queen was walking around in there.  Hmmm...that was cool.  He was going to take her home, put her in a queen cage and slow release into his hive.

I have a wav file of the queens piping too.  I listen to it often cause it is intriguing and sounds so very nice.  It takes me right into the depths of the beautiful, sunny, dog days of summer.

Good luck with your hives.  You are entering the world where you will have joy beyond your wildest dreams.  Have a wonderful day, the sun is shinin'.  Cindi
Logged

There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
asprince
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1696

Location: Fort Valley, Georgia


« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2007, 11:39:51 AM »

Unless this piping is loud like a bagpipe, this old boy will never hear her! Too many days in the school bus factory without proper hearing protection. Steve
Logged

Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resembalance to the first. - Ronald Reagan
AllanJ
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 231


Location: Mineral, Virginia


« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2007, 12:00:51 PM »

Good luck with your hives.  You are entering the world where you will have joy beyond your wildest dreams.  Have a wonderful day, the sun is shinin'.  Cindi

Believe me Cindi, I really really want to enjoy this.. and I will, as soon as I get some brood in my very first hive Smiley  Ok, I am enjoying it, but will just enjoy it more when I have brood.  As least I *know* that as I walked away I had a live queen in the hive. 

Since I have now taken off that hive top feeder, I will be able to peak under the cover and look down at the foundation I put in without disturbing the hive much. I am pretty much going to leave them alone for 2 weeks apart from changing the baggie feeder.

I get my 2nd package on Wednesday so that should distract me for a while. 

I figure that in 2 weeks, it will have been 28 days since I installed the 1st hive and giving them another queen or brood from the 2nd hive may be pointless..

Once the 2nd hive takes off, then I will have more options available.
Logged
MarkR
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 167


Location: Charlottesville, VA.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2007, 01:44:38 PM »

Just got back in from releasing my 2nd queen.  It's fairly warm, and the rain had stopped, so I figured what the heck.  I'm glad we haven't had any of the winds we were predicted to get.  I hope they didn't hit down AlanJ or Zuni's way. 

I am happy to report that they're finally starting to build comb on the insides of the two middle frames, and a lovely comb column right up through the hole of the inner cover.  It's quite beautiful, and I'll remove it when I go retreive the queen cage tomorrow.  The kids at school will love it.   They've been little cheer leaders and ask me how things are going with the hive at least twice a day.

I think I've finally managed the smoker.  It's still burning now, almost 45 minutes after I lit it.  Wow, what a difference not to run out of smoke half way through the job.

I'm also thinking of getting rid of my hive top feeder as well.  It's really making access more difficult than I want it to be.  I have a feeder bucket, but I'm really looking at baggy feeding as well.  I'll probably just use the bucket as I already have it, and things are warming up.

I have all my frames for my second deep ready and will go put them on in a couple of weeks.

I'm riding high at the moment.  Still keeping my fingers crossed though.

Mark
Logged
ZuniBee
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 183


Location: Zuni, VA USA


WWW
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2007, 02:43:56 PM »

Mark - glad to hear the weather didn't hit you. It missed us as well. I got a lot of hard rain but the wind was hardly blowing. It went to the east of us out in the water.....

AlanJ - Hope it missed you too. I sure hope this package works great. Where are you getting this one from?
Logged

AllanJ
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 231


Location: Mineral, Virginia


« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2007, 02:58:48 PM »

We have had about 12 hours of rain. Storm strength at times, garden is flooding and all 8 of the sheep and goats are crammed into the small 8x6 shelter Smiley

I just went to see the hive to check on the syrup level.  It is 50f at the hive and they are all clustered on the bottom of the bottom hive body.  I thought they did not go into a cluster at that temp?  The bottom of the cluster is resting on the SBB.

The 2nd package is coming from Draper. I decided to get their 'All-Star' listed bees.  I think I read somewhere though that the bees come from some other place and not direct from Draper. 
Logged
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13664


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2007, 08:46:17 PM »

>1. Would the workers have killed the new queen after I finally release her from the cage, or would they let the queens fight it out?

They would let the queens fight it out.  If they don't then the workers will decide.  Laying queens sometimes won't.  The younger they are the more likely they will fight.  Virgins are out for blood.  Laying queens are busy laying eggs.

>2. The attendeds were dead in the cage, would the workers have killed them through the screen?

Yes.

>3. I understand how a new queen will kill other queen cells.. but what happens when 2 queens meet in a hive. Do they fight and try and sting each other?

Two virgins?  Yes.  Two young laying queens?  Maybe.  Two old laying queens.  Seldom.

>  Chances of losing them both?

Low, but possible.

>  Will the workers get involved?

Only if the queens aren't willing to fight.

I've watched it in an observation hive.  You should try it.  It did take them hours and hours to find each other and many false starts to the fight followed by hours of wandering around and then another tussle.

Here's Huber's account:

"While the combat lasts, the bees move with great rapidity; they fly on all sides; and, gliding between the combs, conceal their motions from the observer. For my part, though using the most favourable hives, I have never seen a combat between the queens and workers, but I have very often beheld one between the queens themselves."

"They immediately began fighting, but came to disengage themselves from each other. However they fought several times during the night without anything decisive. Next day, the thirteenth, we witnessed the death of one, which fell by the wounds of her enemy. This duel was quite similar to what is said of the combats of queens."

"they will pursue each other, and fight until the throne remain with her that is victorious. Far from opposing such duels, the other bees rather seem to excite the combatants."

--New Observations on the Natural History Of Bees by François Huber

http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
AllanJ
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 231


Location: Mineral, Virginia


« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2007, 09:30:50 PM »

Wow, exciting stuff.   I wish I was more experience in finding queens, then I would have decided it for them and killed the 1st queen who had not laid anything in 14 days.  It might have been because of the Permacomb, but no way to know now since I put a medium of wax foundation on.

However, I still think the 1st queen might have been packed up in the corner of the top hive feeder. There just does not appear to be any reason why quarter of the hive was packed up tightly in such a small space.

Thank Michael for the information..




Logged
AllanJ
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 231


Location: Mineral, Virginia


« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2007, 10:24:50 PM »

Michael, 
http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#letter6

This is wonderful reading.   I am curious, after reading the above, I wonder why it is suggested that queens are kept in a cage for 3 days and not direct released?  The queen is in the cage for 3-5 days inside the package so what is the reason for keeping her in a cage when you install a package?

Also, when requeening, if the hive has been queenless for 24 hours, why would you not direct release?

I know you always direct release, but curious as to why most instructions advise otherwise..

Do you know of times when the workers would kill a queen other than when a new queen tries to enter a queenrite hive?

Logged
Cindi
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 9827

Location: Grindrod, B.C. Canada


« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2007, 08:58:29 AM »

Allan.  I have read many strange things throughout my studies of beekeeping.  One of the wierdest things that I read was that sometimes the bees may "ball" their queen if their hive has been disturbed on a "bad weather" day.  It was thought that the bees thought the queen was at fault for whatever reason and kill her.  Go figure eh?

I did experience this last year.  It was a ugly day outside and I was just being nosy and opened up their hive and looked in, took out some frames, etc.

Sure enough, the next day when I was sitting watching the colonies, I saw a bunch of bees come out of the bottom entrance pulling something.  This was a group effort and it was very noticeable and odd looking.  It was their queen, she was dead.

Perhaps my looking in the hive the day before caused them to commit this regicide, just like I had been warned in the book.  Maybe not and I will never know.

I learned a lesson that day, and I adhere to this lesson.  I do not go into the hive unless it is warm and sunny.  Again, maybe it was simply that the queen had died anyway of a natural cause, and maybe it was not my fault if they had killed her.  BUT....I am not a risk taker and when I see things like that, I will always go on the safer side, stay out when the sun does not shine.

I have read also that when two queens are in their death fight, that the workers watch and egg them on.  I picture it something like when a group of humans watch a fighting match.  If the queens stop fighting, sometimes they will encourage them to keep on keeping on.  Have a wonderful day, beautiful day, good health.  Cindi
Logged

There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13664


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2007, 08:01:19 PM »

>This is wonderful reading.   I am curious, after reading the above, I wonder why it is suggested that queens are kept in a cage for 3 days and not direct released?

In requeening a hive it is helpful.  In a package they're more in a "swarm" mentality and there is much more confusion (from bees shaken from many hives mixed up and the traveling).  I've never had a package reject a queen.

> The queen is in the cage for 3-5 days inside the package so what is the reason for keeping her in a cage when you install a package?

There is no reason to leave her in a cage when you install a package.  I never do.

>Also, when requeening, if the hive has been queenless for 24 hours, why would you not direct release?

This is an organized hive that has had no time to get used to her.  There is a better than 50/50 chance they will accept a direct release, but that's not that good of odds.  A candy release is much better odds.

>I know you always direct release, but curious as to why most instructions advise otherwise..

I have no idea.

>Do you know of times when the workers would kill a queen other than when a new queen tries to enter a queenrite hive?

Sure.  If you dump a laying queen in a queenless hive they may ball her.  I've seen them do it.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
AllanJ
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 231


Location: Mineral, Virginia


« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2007, 08:43:51 PM »

I went out today to finally get my baggie feeder on.  Last Friday I took the hive top feeder off and temporarily  replaced it with a boardman feeder.  On Sunday I noticed that ants where increasing to the hive so I took the front feeder off.  Ants are a problem in my yard so I greased up the hive stand legs. That appears to have made a difference.

Here is my baggie feeder..


I took a look over the hive without disturbing any frames. It appears the main mass of bees is near the middle of the 5th Permacomb in the bottom hive body. Very few bees appeared to be out flying even though it was above 60f.

There are bees in the top hive body on the foundation but I have no idea if they are working on it as they all appeared to be very docile.
Got some shots looking down..




I'm not going into the hive until the weekend.. so will find out then if I have a queen and brood..





Logged
Pages: [1] 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.431 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page September 13, 2014, 05:52:02 AM