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Author Topic: Shelf life of medicated syrup  (Read 4708 times)
Mklangelo
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« on: April 08, 2007, 12:06:12 PM »

what is the shelf life of syrup medicated with fumigilin-B?   



I have made 3 gallons of syrup one week ago and decided to use the Fumigilin B I had already bought.  I want to medicate the week old syrup ahead of time. They syrup has been refrigerated since I made it.  But after that, I will not be using medication until I see a problem.

Since I spent the money on the fumigilin B I may as well use it.



thanks!
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2007, 01:20:29 PM »

>Since I spent the money on the fumigilin B I may as well use it.

Just because I spent money on medication (for my bees or me) does not mean I should use it...
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2007, 01:49:10 PM »

.
Fumagilin is used against nosema. It is used in autum to sterilize away nosema spores from bees' gut for winter.
After winter nosema has doen it's bad jobs, if it is bad in hive and hive is sensitive to disease.

In spring nosema colony builds up often when you give healty new nurser bees from another hive.
In Europe Fumigillin is not allowed to bees. Perhaps residuals in honey is the reason.
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2007, 01:53:05 PM »

I appreciate the replies but I'm just asking what the shelf life is on the medicated syrup.  I realize you don't use it.  And since I'm not in Europe, I'm really not interested in what's allowed or not allowed there.



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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2007, 02:17:15 PM »

I appreciate the replies but ....really not interested

I used it against nosema for many years and it is good stuff but expencive. It rised my average yield 20% as it promised. But you are not interested on European knowledge. Sorry to disturb you.
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Mklangelo
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2007, 02:34:00 PM »

No disruption at all.  I sought other information is all. 

I did not mean to offend.  I'm just looking for shelf life of the medicated syrup.  I want to make it one week ahead.


Your posts were some of the first one's I read here and helped me get interested in reading more.


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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2007, 02:44:27 PM »

From Canada  http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5224

Australia collected information 2005  http://www.agric.nsw.gov.au/reader/527
http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-055.pdf

 USA: http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/Bee_Diseases/Nosema.html

The best defense against nosema is to winter only strong colonies with plenty of honey in the proper position and with young vigorous queens. Many different chemicals have been tested for control of the disease but only Fumidil-B® or Nosem-X™ (Fumagillin) have proven effective. Fumagillin is especially effective in suppressing nosema in overwintered colonies and newly established packages. Since Fumagillin does not affect spores of the nosema parasite, treatment with this drug will not completely eliminate the disease from the colony. The infection will continue after all the medicated syrup has been consumed.

For optimal nosema control in overwintered colonies, initial infection levels should be reduced in early winter. In late fall, when brood rearing normally declines, colonies should be fed about 1 gallon of heavy sugar syrup (two parts sugar, one part water) containing Fumagillin. The syrup should be stored where the last brood emerges and used as the colony's first winter feed. This procedure delays the initial buildup of any infection from winter confinement, which keeps the disease from reaching the high levels seen in unprotected colonies. Colonies should receive a minimum of 1 gallon of medicated syrup containing 75 to 100 milligrams of Fumagillin (1 1/2 level teaspoons of Fumidil-B or 1 heaping teaspoon Nosem-X per gallon of syrup) in the fall. Packages newly installed in the spring should receive similar treatment. Fumagillin treatments are most effective when fed with sugar syrup. Research has shown Fumagillin's effectiveness is limited when fed with powdered sugar, extender patties, candy, or pollen supplements.

CAUTION: No medication should be fed to colonies when there is danger of contaminating the honey crop. Be sure to stop all drug feeding at least four weeks before the onset of the main surplus honey flow.




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Mklangelo
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2007, 03:55:48 PM »

excellent info.  I did some web searching earlier and didn't find this article. 

I am going to use this as a prevention, which is 10 times simpler than the use as a cure.  An ounce of prevention is indeed worth a pound of cure. In the case of a heavily infested colony, it would mean spraying directly a slightly higher dose and using it directly on the bees, frame by frame.  Not something I'm at all interested in doing. Or even administering the medicated syrup for weeks.  Not attractive to me at all...


 Smiley

If all goes well, the medication will be completely administered months before the first flow.
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2007, 06:15:46 PM »

>Since I spent the money on the fumigilin B I may as well use it.

Just because I spent money on medication (for my bees or me) does not mean I should use it...


Point taken Mike, but of course you wouldn't buy medicine before your doctor prescribed it and you certainly wouldn't have it unless your doctor wrote you a prescription. 

Of course treatments are not only for after one is sick.  Have you ever heard of preventative medicine?   

Yes I understand the beauty and preference of doing things in a completely natural way, there's just no doubt about that being better.  But my understanding of the diagnosing of a frame of bees is completely theoretical since I have never held a frame full of bees in my hands and examined it. 

So at the outset, I'll take a bit of help from science and get used to looking at a healthy colony.  Then I'll know by experience when I'm looking at one that isn't.
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2007, 09:04:16 PM »

>Have you ever heard of preventative medicine?   

Not for antibiotics.  No.
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007, 11:14:00 AM »


Of course treatments are not only for after one is sick.  Have you ever heard of preventative medicine?   


For nosema it is better to give medicine before bees are sick.  It is same as you boil your drinking water before you drink it with all strange bacteriums.

Preventive medicin? I have met some.  For malaria for example when I go to tropical countries. 

No need to draw philosophical lines for everything.
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007, 12:28:17 PM »

>Have you ever heard of preventative medicine?   

Not for antibiotics.  No.



I would have to echo this sentiment, although I think we all (especially in Western, Allopathic medicine) have heard of preventative prescriptions of antibiotics (i.e. prescribed for nearly every surgical procedure) - that doesn't make the practice right. (note - doctors in the U.S are the 3rd leading cause of death).

The thing with antibiotics is they are designed to kill all micro-flora - beneficial bacteria and pathogens.  This sets up a sterile environment, perfect for pathogens to flourish (no competition from the beneficial bacteria).  As this relates to humans, animals and plant life ~ there is an opposite, probiotic approach of which I practise and am an advocate.  I am new to beeking so I need to research/determine if/how this might apply to bees (sounds like a topic for the new organic beeking sub-board) but I would suspect that insects also have a symbiotic relationship with beneficial bacteria.
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 12:51:44 PM »

I would have to echo this sentiment, although I think we all (especially in Western, Allopathic medicine) have heard of preventative prescriptions of antibiotics (i.e. prescribed for nearly every surgical procedure) - that doesn't make the practice right. (note - doctors in the U.S are the 3rd leading cause of death).


While the practice of using antibiotics as a preventative is often over utilized, it is not necessarily wrong at all instances.  Not every surgery is sterile.  Not every patient can handle minor infections.  I would suggest that there are a number of life saving onconological regimens that should not be entered into without proper antibiotic support.

Quote
The thing with antibiotics is they are designed to kill all micro-flora - beneficial bacteria and pathogens


No they are not.  This is simply false and misleading.  In fact a number of antibiotics are "designed" for particular types of apoplications, or to combat a narrow segment of the microbial world.

Quote
This sets up a sterile environment, perfect for pathogens to flourish (no competition from the beneficial bacteria).


Sort of, kind of, and not exaclty.  A) it is not a given that taking antibiotics will produce a secondary infection.  It happens, as nothing in life is 100%, but that is where judicious use comes in.  Willy nilly applications of microbiologicals is clearly unwarrented, but you are painting with too wide a brush.

Quote
As this relates to humans, animals and plant life ~ there is an opposite, probiotic approach of which I practise and am an advocate.
 

Offhand I can think of dozens of bugs that would do an endrun around any probiotics.  I am not knocking them necessarily, thought their efficacy is often grossly overblow, but the world needs both approaches.

Quote
I am new to beeking so I need to research/determine if/how this might apply to bees (sounds like a topic for the new organic beeking sub-board) but I would suspect that insects also have a symbiotic relationship with beneficial bacteria.


May well be, but remember, we steal their food, and anything you put into a beehive, should be something you can sell and or feed to another person.  I would not be surprised if such a bnug or bugs exist, just be careful.

Keith
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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2007, 12:53:52 PM »

what is the shelf life of syrup medicated with fumigilin-B?   

I too think your application is perhaps less appropriate thtn more traditional deployments of ths substance, but I haven't the foggiest idea what the shelf-life would be in syrup.  Typically, dry meds reconstitued into aqueous solutions have a fairly short shelf life or days to a small number of weeks.  I suspect the manufacturer can give you those numbers.

Keith
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2007, 04:27:12 PM »

Quote
The thing with antibiotics is they are designed to kill all micro-flora - beneficial bacteria and pathogens


No they are not.  This is simply false and misleading.  In fact a number of antibiotics are "designed" for particular types of apoplications, or to combat a narrow segment of the microbial world.


That's true, I mis-spoke there.  I should have written Antibiotics Kill Your Body's Good Bacteria, Too, Leading to Serious Health Risks

Quote
This sets up a sterile environment, perfect for pathogens to flourish (no competition from the beneficial bacteria).


Sort of, kind of, and not exaclty.  A) it is not a given that taking antibiotics will produce a secondary infection.  It happens, as nothing in life is 100%, but that is where judicious use comes in.  Willy nilly applications of microbiologicals is clearly unwarrented, but you are painting with too wide a brush.

Quote
As this relates to humans, animals and plant life ~ there is an opposite, probiotic approach of which I practise and am an advocate.
 

Offhand I can think of dozens of bugs that would do an endrun around any probiotics.  I am not knocking them necessarily, thought their efficacy is often grossly overblow, but the world needs both approaches.

I am purposely being general.  You're specifically referring to antibiotics in humans/animals... I'm referring to rhizospheres, phylospheres, intestinal tracts, etc., etc.,.  A nutrient rich environment with no natural competition is at an increased risk of infection. 

Organic agriculture utilising living, compost teas as foliar feeding is one example of an effective probiotic approach to pathogen prevention.  Of course nothing is 100% in all circumstances.

Quote
I am new to beeking so I need to research/determine if/how this might apply to bees (sounds like a topic for the new organic beeking sub-board) but I would suspect that insects also have a symbiotic relationship with beneficial bacteria.


May well be, but remember, we steal their food, and anything you put into a beehive, should be something you can sell and or feed to another person.  I would not be surprised if such a bnug or bugs exist, just be careful.


The beauty of probiotics (beneficial bacteria) is that they are naturally occurring and there's not necessarily a need to introduce additional.   I'm not a commercial honey producer, I've not had any antibiotics in 10+ years, and no cooked foods in 5 but, yes - of course, I would do due diligence on adding anything to the hive environment (for the bee's sake and my own).  I'm fortunate to have my hives adjacent to 20+ acres of unadulterated wetlands so, although there is no 100% guarantee of protection against exposure to unnatural chemicals, I'm hopeful it will be very minimal and my bees will thrive.

& back to the general topic - I'm not trying to chastise anyone for their choice of meds.  That is a personal choice and everyone needs to proceed within their own reasoning.  I am just attempting to contribute an alternative... food for thought, as it were. =) (& it works for me).
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Mklangelo
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2007, 06:55:06 PM »

>Have you ever heard of preventative medicine?   

Not for antibiotics.  No.



I would have to echo this sentiment, although I think we all (especially in Western, Allopathic medicine) have heard of preventative prescriptions of antibiotics (i.e. prescribed for nearly every surgical procedure) - that doesn't make the practice right. (note - doctors in the U.S are the 3rd leading cause of death).

The thing with antibiotics is they are designed to kill all micro-flora - beneficial bacteria and pathogens.  This sets up a sterile environment, perfect for pathogens to flourish (no competition from the beneficial bacteria).  As this relates to humans, animals and plant life ~ there is an opposite, probiotic approach of which I practise and am an advocate.  I am new to beeking so I need to research/determine if/how this might apply to bees (sounds like a topic for the new organic beeking sub-board) but I would suspect that insects also have a symbiotic relationship with beneficial bacteria.


I clicked on your link about doctors being the third leading cause of death and on it's face I found it to be ridiculous.  I then clicked the link just to have a look and got popped up and spammed so much in the sea of advertisements that my head still hurts.
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2007, 06:58:08 PM »

what is the shelf life of syrup medicated with fumigilin-B?   

I too think your application is perhaps less appropriate thtn more traditional deployments of ths substance, but I haven't the foggiest idea what the shelf-life would be in syrup.  Typically, dry meds reconstitued into aqueous solutions have a fairly short shelf life or days to a small number of weeks.  I suspect the manufacturer can give you those numbers.

Keith

Well, kgbenson, I do want to thank you as the first person who has even addressed my original post.  Although this thread is lively and interesting, it has indeed been hijacked if ever a thread has been.  Don't you just love the sound of axes grinding?

smiley
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2007, 07:01:31 PM »

what is the shelf life of syrup medicated with fumigilin-B?   

I too think your application is perhaps less appropriate thtn more traditional deployments of ths substance, but I haven't the foggiest idea what the shelf-life would be in syrup.  Typically, dry meds reconstitued into aqueous solutions have a fairly short shelf life or days to a small number of weeks.  I suspect the manufacturer can give you those numbers.

Keith

The primary purpose of Fumigilin-B is in the prevention of Nosema.  I'm not sure what you mean by "more traditional deployments of this substance"  It is also used as a treatment for existing cases of Nosema, but it is 10 times more difficult and time consuming than it's use a a simple Prophylaxis.  How's that for an obscure Latin word?  Huh?  lol
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2007, 01:00:54 AM »

I clicked on your link about doctors being the third leading cause of death and on it's face I found it to be ridiculous.  I then clicked the link just to have a look and got popped up and spammed so much in the sea of advertisements that my head still hurts.

Off topic but, that study is published in the Journal American Medical Association July 26, 2000;284(4):483-5 "which is the most widely circulated medical periodical in the world."  Definitely some ridiculous schtuff.

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....my head still hurts.
(Allopathic) doctors would say that is an indication of inadequate tylenol in your diet.
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2007, 01:15:57 AM »


I clicked on your link about doctors being the third leading cause of death and on it's face I found it to be ridiculous. 

In  our countries crosswalks are prime reason that pedestrians meet accidents with cars. 50% of death cases happens on crosswalks. If all would use crosswalks, 100% would die on crosswalks.

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When there are bleeding cases in human brains, death rate is 40%.  Thanks to surgeons that it is not 100%.
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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2007, 01:22:40 AM »

About those doctor deaths read this one.
http://www.mercola.com/2003/jan/15/doctors_drugs.htm

If everyone wore seat belts then all vehicles deaths would involve the wearing of seat belts.
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2007, 01:35:03 AM »

lol, is it late night, logical fallacy hour at the bee cafe?   grin  bleep hoc ergo propter hoc

bleep? latin for "with" got bleeped!?  afro   Try that again... summa bleep laude - yep  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2007, 07:12:02 AM »

lol, is it late night, logical fallacy hour at the bee cafe?   grin  bleep hoc ergo propter hoc

bleep? latin for "with" got bleeped!?  afro   Try that again... summa bleep laude - yep  Lips Sealed

What's up with the dead languages? 
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2007, 09:28:31 AM »

If I am not mistaken, fumigilan medication (and other bee meds) should not be used after two weeks of storage.  Something brought up in the cobwebs of my mind.  They also should always be mixed into cool syrup, not heated syrups.  Heat destroys the effect of the drugs.  Best of the wonderful day, good health.  Cindi
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2007, 07:08:03 PM »

If I am not mistaken, fumigilan medication (and other bee meds) should not be used after two weeks of storage.  Something brought up in the cobwebs of my mind.  They also should always be mixed into cool syrup, not heated syrups.  Heat destroys the effect of the drugs.  Best of the wonderful day, good health.  Cindi

Thanks much Cindi,

I made the syrup 9 days ago and medicated it two days ago.  I called my guy at Dadant and checked with him.  He said I'd be fine for using it this weekend, which is when we think the bees are arriving from California.  And actually I pre-diluted it in 45C water then added it to syrup that was just around room temp.  instructions recommend that warm water premix.
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2007, 09:26:11 AM »

Mklangelo.  115 F is an OK, warm temperature, should be OK, I was referring to very very warm water destroys effects of meds.  Good luck with the new bees.  Have a wonderful, beautiful day, along with great health.  Cindi
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« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2007, 03:15:37 PM »

Mklangelo.  115 F is an OK, warm temperature, should be OK, I was referring to very very warm water destroys effects of meds.  Good luck with the new bees.  Have a wonderful, beautiful day, along with great health.  Cindi

Thanks very much Cindi!  Such a nice lady!  Now if my bees ever get here I'll be just fine.  *taps foot impatiently...* 
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Location: Grindrod, B.C. Canada


« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2007, 12:12:18 AM »

Mklangelo.  You know the old rhyme, good things take time.  Be patient, patience is something that not all of us possess, do strive to possess this wonderful human attribute.  It could be yours to hold in your hand, if you nurture is gently.  Good luck with your bees, I cannot wish this more than anything else for a new beekeeper.  I have learned an eon of lessons through my failures in my first 2 years of keeping bees.  I will never, ever forget these lessons. 

I have had lots of success as well, but I think that we learn more through the agonies of mistakes.  These we reflect on, far more than our success, and we learn.  I don't care who you are, we are human, and we are the same, we all share this, I know that.  AND, I honestly think that that is a great and wonderful thing.  We will all become great beekeepers one day, with oh, so healthy bees.  Have the beautiful, wonderful, day, and good health.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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