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Author Topic: Wiring Frames  (Read 5770 times)
AllanJ
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« on: April 04, 2007, 08:31:52 PM »

Hi all,

I decided to purchase unassembled frames and dadant small cell medium foundation
http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=820

I also have put in 2 support pins
https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=182

1. My question is, do I "need" to install horizontal wires to support the foundation?
The same foundation is going to be used for brood and the supers.

2. When I install the foundation, the wax is wavy so it does not slot into the bottom grove. I have to slowly and careful feed the foundation in..  is there a secret to putting the foundation in to the grove?  it seems to be the part that takes the longest.

Thanks.


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Michael Bush
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 10:22:41 PM »

>1. My question is, do I "need" to install horizontal wires to support the foundation?

No.

>2. When I install the foundation, the wax is wavy so it does not slot into the bottom grove. I have to slowly and careful feed the foundation in..  is there a secret to putting the foundation in to the grove?

Is it too long?  You may need to have a split bottom bar for it to fit correctly.

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Michael Bush
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AllanJ
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 06:38:13 AM »

Hi,

No it fits perfectly when I get it in the grooved bottom bar.. It just takes me a minute or two to get it in the groove because the foundation is not straight and the grooved bottom bar is narrow. I just wondered if there was some easy trick to slotting that foundation into the groove in 5 seconds without breaking the foundation.

Thanks.
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bluegrass
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 07:25:53 AM »

Are you putting the foundation in after the frames are put together? It is easier if you put it in when you asemble the frame.
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 07:05:45 PM »

I got some foundations that had embedded wires that were a hair too long and made it hard to fit into the bottom groove nicely. I just trimmed the ends and it fit fine.

kev
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jimmyo
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2007, 07:41:00 AM »

I don't know if you "need" to use wire. I tried using the pins once, the comb wants to come out of the frame if it gets alot of honey in it.  once the comb breaks loose it's hard to control it in the frame.  The wires hold everything where it belongs.
  The queen skips laying eggs over the wire the first time but after that first bunch is raised she lays in all the cells.
 Jim
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2007, 09:39:20 PM »

If you're using full sheets of foundation then wiring is the way to go as it secures the wax into the frame so it doesn't warp.  I use starter strips so wire and pins are pretty much useless.

I build my frames using a 8 nail pattern since a 10 nail pattern includes the 2 nail anchors.  One in the center of each end of the top bar, 2 secure the face of each end bar to the top bar, and 2 more for the bottom bar.  I've never used glue when building equipment and I started in 1959.  I have observed it becomes a problem when attempting to reduild or repair equipment if and when the equipment becomes damaged. 
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2007, 10:09:24 PM »

Do you "need" to wire the foundation?  No,  but I have never regretted wiring a frame once it is in use.  But I can't say the same about unwired frames.

Pins might work with plastic core foundation like duragilt,  but they provide very little contact area for wax foundation and 9 times out of 10 break the wax or the bees chew around them. From my experience, they are useless.   

Remember,  the foundation is the base for the bees to draw comb.  Just like the foundation on your house,  you want it to be as perfect as possibly.  Wavy foundation doesn't lead to good comb.
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AllanJ
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2007, 10:31:21 PM »

Thanks all..

So to wire my foundation, I feed the wire through the holes in the end bars, secure it on one end and then?

Would I embed it and then pull it tight and secure it to the other side,  or secure it on both sides and then embed the wire?
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AllanJ
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2007, 10:42:22 PM »

Oh.. I built a frame jig today.  Enabled me to put 10 frames together in like 5 minutes.  Wonderful!
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BenC
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2007, 11:12:42 PM »

1. Feed wire, secure on one end
2. Tighten wire (it should twang when plucked), secure second end
3.  Remove wedge
3. Install foundation, Install wedge
4.  Embed wires in foundation.
       If you want tight wires, use grommets.  Otherwise the wire will break when tightening, or won't get tight enough.  Jigs are nice, I'm lazy and try to create jigs for anything I'll make more than once.  Try making a frame wiring jig-  holds the wire spool, pinches the frame sidebars, and allows easy tensioning of the wire.  That way you won't wear out your fingers pulling thin wire, or twist any frames Smiley
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jimmyo
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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2007, 12:17:50 PM »

I use a spur wire embeder.  If the wire is tight and you have a base under the foundation it works just fine.
Jim
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2007, 01:16:14 PM »

If you want to wire, it is well worth investing in the proper tools to do so.

First you need good wire.  The best I've found is stainless steel from Glory Bee. In my experience all the rest is horrible and breaks everytime I try to tighten it.

Next you need a "Wiring Device" to hold the spool of wire so it's easy to pull out without it backlashing all over the place:
Kelley Cat No 159-S
http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=161

Then you need a Foundation Device:

Kelley cat no 59 (deeps) or 59-M (mediums)
http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=161

Or Brushy Mt has one made to do both. http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/products.asp?pcode=693

Then you need an electric embedder.  Many people make their own from some kind of transformer.

Walter T. Kelley Ca No. 109 is the embedder and Cat No 153 is the transformer.


I added a few feet to it:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WireEmbedder.JPG

You can get buy without eyelets but they you have to be more careful about how tight you pull the wires.

A crimper is very nice as crimped wire holds better, stays tighter and spreads the stress out more so it stays in better.

Brushy Mt has some:
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/products.asp?pcode=658

But I prefer how I rebuilt them:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WireCrimpers.JPG

With these tools you can work fairly quickly and efficiently.  Without them it's tedious at best.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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AllanJ
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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2007, 07:42:22 PM »

Thanks Michael.  How do you use the electric embedder?  What are the steps involved?
Step by step instructions for wiring is really lacking on the internet.

I thought it would be to secure both ends of the wire, attach the transformer to heat the wire and then press the foundation against the wire..
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2007, 09:02:21 PM »

>Thanks Michael.  How do you use the electric embedder?  What are the steps involved?
Step by step instructions for wiring is really lacking on the internet.

The one I have has an electrical contact at each end and several feet in between.  You put the frame on the foundation board you press the embedder on the wire, you press the switch on the embedder for two or three seconds (a little practice will tell you exactly how much, as too much will melt through and too little won't melt in) and you have the wire embedded.

Here some info on embedding:
http://www.beesource.com/eob/wire_embedder/index.htm

Not necessarily identical to my setup but it works.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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woodchopper
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2007, 04:05:58 PM »

Do you "need" to wire the foundation?  No,  but I have never regretted wiring a frame once it is in use.  But I can't say the same about unwired frames.

Pins might work with plastic core foundation like duragilt,  but they provide very little contact area for wax foundation and 9 times out of 10 break the wax or the bees chew around them. From my experience, they are useless.   

Very glad I saw this. I was just going to order some. Thanks !!
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Jarhead
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2007, 05:19:57 PM »

I use 4 inch hair pins on both sides of the frame and have no problems.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2007, 10:29:59 PM »

I HAVE regretted wiring when I wanted to cut a queen cell out but it was on a wire, or I wanted to make cut comb from an exceptionally nicely drawn frame.  I can and do extract thin surplus with no wires, but I never figured out how to make cut comb out of frames with wires in them.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Zoot
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2007, 11:33:26 PM »

MB,

I thought it was common practice to simply snip the wires and pull each strip out so one could cut comb. I have never done it but I recall George Imirie describing the practice years ago. Perhaps I misunderstood?
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TwT
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« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2007, 07:15:20 AM »

i dont wire my frames for cut comb, be tough to cut if i did.
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