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Author Topic: CO2 does what?  (Read 1282 times)
Jerrymac
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« on: April 05, 2007, 02:10:55 PM »

I was watching some stuff about Mars yesterday. They mentioned something about the 90% CO2 atmosphere couldn't hold the heat of the sun in and there fore the planet was cold.

Hummmmm.

Then I read this article and it talks about the CO2 in the atmosphere here on earth holding in the heat of the sun. Do they just make this stuff up as they go? Or just say what suits them at the time.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070404/sc_afp/scienceclimatemars_070404203258;_ylt=AgrA8rkKaEkdiGBWzcRnJEDMWM0F
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 02:35:38 PM »

Ummm...We can deduce that Martians have not signed the Kyoto cachondeo either. cheesy
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 03:46:08 PM »

Reading this Jerry sure does have your head itching a bit. The best I can think is that the trapped Co2 in the upper atmosphere works like a HEATSINK, trapping the hotter temperatures higher up and away from the ground, but causing ambient temps to climb as the heatsink temps thicken due to whatever reasoning. These radiant temps we feel when sitting in a hot car may be what we feel more of as that giant heatsink in the sky expands outwards.

I love the one reason that a scientist on CNN explained colder record temps in some areas a few months ago, he said "The colder temps are created when iceburgs melt and the cooler air released is kept low as higher surrounding temps rise upwards because of natural convection."

I guess Global Warming (what did they say 1.37 degrees F in 100 years) depends on where you are measuring from - and of course they throw the CYCLICAL part completely out of the equation, it must be anti-something. How about all the Co2 released when Sadam Hussain set ablaze all the hundreds of oil wells at the end of the first Gulf War in Qwait, I'd have been happy if they hung that bum for crimes against the planet for that mess we had to clean up. IF any single man-made even poluted the planet (in a single event) that one was right up there with the best.

I just have one question for everyone, if the climate "changes" DRAMATICALLY every 5000 or so years, to the point where humans struggle to survive.... Tell me, what you gonna do, besides your best if THIS POINT IN TIME is part of that cycle - the last around the completion of the Great Pyramids.

Earth is a planet with some pretty dramatic climate extremes, all of which we are capable of surviving with the right equipment, but when 60 foot of snow blankets your town and it turns to solid ice, or when a mud-slide (Earth's number one killer of humans) comes roaring through, I'll be one of those people who believe it isn't the first nor the last time it will happen - surely it has happened a few million times before and will likely repeat itself at least as many, whether man is here to witness it or not. Of course these extremem changes will probably wein out most of us, I highly doubt my AC or furnace nor anything my wife has stowed away in the attic can prepare and weather us for such climatical extremes. And just think, we may all be just another ancient civilation dug-up by archilogists in a thousand years - at least we'll have some good footage to share with them, if we are smart enough to save the relics of machinery to play them.
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« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 03:52:38 PM »

Jerrymac:

Neat article.

Now lets start climatology 101.
The questions asked is why does CO2 on Earth trap heat and CO2 on Mars release it?
Good question.
Let's look at the difference between Earth and Mars.

                     Earth            Mars
Nitrogen (N2)   78%              2%
Oxygen (O2)     20%            >1%
Argon  (Ar)      >1%            1.6%
Carbon Dioxide  >1%            95%
Neon (Ne)        >1%            >1%
And many others that are less than 1% on each planet.

Do you notice any differences?
Now the CO2 levels on the earth are trapping heat. The atmosphere of Earth is
very different than the atmosphere on Mars. The atmosphere on Mars doesn't
contain an ozone layer. It doesn't contain the water vapor that Earth has. When
they talk about ice sheets on Mars They are talking about frozen CO2. Frozen CO2
can be bought on Earth. It is known as dry ice. When it warms up it doesn't form
liquid puddles it changes to a gas. Which is something to note when one has put
25 lbs of dry ice in their air tight cooler and opens it later in the day and
the pressure inside causes it to make a bang sound. Which could be a bit
startling.

So while CO2 on Earth is less than 1% of the dry atomosphere. It is 383 ppmv
currently. Prior to 1973 it was 333 ppmv. So while CO2 is less than 1% of the
dry atmosphere is can have a dramatic effect. Now whether or not you believe the
increase is man made or not doesn't matter. If the increase continues it will
have an effect on the temprature. Changes in CO2 levels can have a dramatic
effect. Think of it like salt. You sprinkle a little on some food. Salt probably
contacts less the 1% of the item to be eaten. But it can have a dramatic effect
on taste. Also if you put to much you probably won't eat it because it taste
nasty. Yet if you get no salt in your diet you die. And the total amount of salt
in the human body is under 1%

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 05:32:59 PM »

So you are saying salt taste different on Mars?

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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2007, 09:49:00 AM »

So you are saying salt taste different on Mars?


Only if you put it on martian veggies.  cheesy

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2007, 08:17:27 AM »

OK now that I got other things out of the way.

Understudy you can not go about adding to or taking away from something to make it work. The articles mentioned were not talking about dry ice or anything frozen in/on the ground, they talked about what is in the atmosphere. CO2. Now it either holds in heat or it doesn't. If it holds in the heat then the more you have the more heat you hold in. Can't be saying that a blanket will keep you warm on Earth but freeze you to death on Mars.

And about your dry ice theory;

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0213_030213_marspoles.html
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2007, 10:10:15 AM »

OK now that I got other things out of the way.

Understudy you can not go about adding to or taking away from something to make it work. The articles mentioned were not talking about dry ice or anything frozen in/on the ground, they talked about what is in the atmosphere. CO2.

Actually the article you cited, says:
The explanation is in the dirt.

Glistening Martian dust lying on the ground reflects the Sun's light -- and its heat -- back into space, a phenomenon called albedo.

The article mentions nothing about CO2 levels on Mars. They do mention CO2 levels on Earth.

Quote
Now it either holds in heat or it doesn't. If it holds in the heat then the more you have the more heat you hold in. Can't be saying that a blanket will keep you warm on Earth but freeze you to death on Mars.

The top temprature on Mars 41F/5C but the colder tempratures are under 100F/-73C. I would think a blanket might not be adaquete. You mention a blanket keeps you warm or it doesn't. Sure if it is dry. And so is the surrounding enviroment. If the blanket is wet and temprature of the wet blanket is 85F/29.4C you will get hypothermia. The unfortunate fact is that when dealing with things like global warming and planetary atmospheres it is never as simple as we would like it to be. It is nice to be able to make simple comparisions but they don't always reflect the true nature. My salt analogy and your blanket analogy are like that.


Here is the thing, you expect things that work on earth to work the same way on mars. They don't This is the argument the people who feel the moon landings were faked bring up. CO2 alone does not hold in heat on the martian atmosphere. The martian atmosphere is very thin. This has a dramatic effect on how gases , vapors, and heat are trapped.


Quote

Nice Article. I will take my correction on that no problem. I still have some old viking lander articles I was looking at for that.
There is a more up to date NG article that discusses some of the dry ice issues. However the article you pointed out do state that the ice caps do contain frozen H2O.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1219_051219_mars_ice.html
However there is still science going on:
http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=885&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2007, 12:03:24 AM »

OK. I will start over. The other day on the science channel there was this thing about Mars. It was mentioned that because the atmosphere was made up of 90% CO2 it (the atmosphere) couldn't hold in the heat. Didn't say nothing about the "thin" atmosphere. Or the absence of other gasses or vapors or anything. Just that the CO2 couldn't hold in the heat.

Now it the link I provided above it says;
"For Earth, global warming is mainly associated with human activities -- notably the burning of fossil fuels -- that release carbon dioxide (CO2) into the atmosphere, trapping more of the Sun's heat."

Notice it doesn't include anything else. Just the CO2.

Dry ice temperature is -109.3F. Mars temps range from -125 F to 23 F (according to the link I provided at the start) So I would say that most of the time (just hazzarding a guess) the CO2 is not frozen at all. So since it goes from solid state directly to the gas state, there should be an abundance of it in the atmosphere to hold in the heat. It then should heat up just a bit more in order to melt the H2O ice and then we could start having water vapors and such. OH but wait!! In an article you provided it says right at the very end;

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/12/1219_051219_mars_ice_2.html
"The atmosphere of Mars is as diverse—or more so—as the Earth's."

Another point you brought up. Earth has an Ozone layer. With out it we would fry like bacon because of the UV rays. So Mars has no Ozone layer and therefore should have more heating going on from the UV rays, and the CO2 should hold in more of the heat. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 10:54:05 AM by Jerrymac » Logged

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