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Author Topic: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman  (Read 15800 times)
Michael Bush
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« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2007, 05:08:08 PM »

>That was probably one of the biggest mistakes that I had ever made in my beekeeping.  I probably bred the varroa mite like there was no tomorrow.

They would have raised the same number of brood regardless.  You did not hurt them a bit.

Levin, C.G. and C.H. Collison. 1991. The production and distribution of drone comb and brood in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies as affected by freedom in comb construction. BeeScience 1: 203-211.

>Summary = mite resistant breeding/selection practises, small (4.9mm) cell brood

It works for me.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2007, 12:22:37 AM »


  I never did remove the drone comb frame.

That was probably one of the biggest mistakes that I had ever made in my beekeeping.  I probably bred the varroa mite like there was no tomorrow.  Yup, I hang my head in shame.

However Michalen write "They would have raised the same number of brood regardless.  You did not hurt them a bit."

Problem is that drone brood has londer cycle and mite can produce much more mature mites inside cell.  But that is not lethal mistake. I have drone zones in my frames but I do not harvest them systematically.  It drone frame comes to my sight then I cut it.  It is big job to unload and lod the full 6 box hive for mites.  Important is that in spring mite level is so low that you need not worry mites during summer or autumn.

However mites should be handled in Autumn and in Winter. Spring handling is only for emergency situation if former handling is somehow unsucceeded.

It is natural that everyone makes mistakes. It is so called experience.  But if you don't learn nothing after 2 same kind of mistakes, you are just stupid. Vain to blame own head. It will not come better.   
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Finsky
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« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2007, 01:09:22 AM »

I would like to be as "mite-free" as possible while still being as natural as possible.   


Problem is that mite has taken too big role in beekeeping. Some formulate whole system with mites: bottoms, frames, nursing procedures...When you get your first hive, shake!

I nurse mites only 30 seconds during year per hive. I like beekeeping. I have terated mites 20 years but they are not meaning of my hobby. Or live without chemicals. Nonsence. Look at your bathroom what you there.  I have chemicals in  my honey either. In Finland we do not feed hives with sugar when we have flowers in nature.

There are many worse diseases of bees than mite.

The quality of queen is he basic of beekeeping- so we get advices how to make bad quality queens by myself.  Second is quality of pastures and almost no one write about pastures.

Teen spoon full of chemical free honey. That makes chemical rich life happy.

Once my friend told that their company sells 140 different kind of car chemical. Have you chemical free car allready, which runs with holy spirit?





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Finsky
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« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2007, 09:01:03 AM »

.
In our country we have beekeeper shamans too. The worst problem to them is "earth rays". No one knows what is is but it is.

That phenomenom is relative to "water veins". Junction of water veins are really bad.  These kill more bees tahn varroa in our country.
If you want to avoid these evils, you should get a man who can make ”dowsing map".

Of course to make certain jobs during new moon, before or later .... I do not remember.

 



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Dane Bramage
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« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2007, 08:59:48 PM »

Once my friend told that their company sells 140 different kind of car chemical. Have you chemical free car allready, which runs with holy spirit?

Actually I do, two of them.  And, regarding "chemicals", thats a bit of an over generalization as any substance has a chemical composition.  So I find it best to focus on toxicity and, in my home, you would find alcohol, hydrogen peroxide, ionic-colloidal silver, essential oils, natural soaps, vinegar, etc., as opposed to chlorine bleach, petrol-based solvents, etc.,.  Commercially produced products from here (& others similarly produced) as opposed to the one's you listed.
That being said, it is a personal lifestyle choice.  Avoidance of toxic chemicals is not my phobia, I just feel my health is worth the effort (I'm almost 40) and I actually enjoy it immensely. 

Back to bees ~ I fed my bees sugar syrup (from unrefined, unbleached organic cane) and pollen patty for two days.  Now they're going to have to make due on their own. Wink  Regarding mites, I always evaluate prior to acting.  My asking questions and proposing solutions in advance is part of the learning process, not necessarily an indication of how I will/would proceed. 
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Cindi
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« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2007, 10:32:08 PM »

Yeah!!! Another colloidal silver water user!!!  Bring it on!!!  Best of the day, good health.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Michael Bush
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« Reply #86 on: April 09, 2007, 06:54:56 AM »

>>However Michalen write "They would have raised the same number of brood regardless.  You did not hurt them a bit."

>Problem is that drone brood has londer cycle and mite can produce much more mature mites inside cell.

Yes.  But if you check out the study I referenced, you'll see that no matter what you do they will still raise the same number of drones, therefore the same number of mites.  True, if you pulled the drone comb out, you might have gotten rid of some mites, but they will simply raise more drones to try to replace those.

The point is, if you forget a drone frame, you haven't made any difference.  If you remove it, you have removed some varroa and a lot of resources for the bees.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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Finsky
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« Reply #87 on: April 09, 2007, 09:03:40 AM »

you'll see that no matter what you do they will still raise the same number of drones, therefore the same number of mites


That is surely worst nonsence what I have seen for long time!  Bees cannot math!

 You have read this before. There are differencies.  http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html

The big idea of foundations is that they make worker cells and not so much drone cells what they like.  My beekeeper friens also say that when they tried small cell foundations, bees teared them and made what ever cells.

What I have read is that with taking drone drood off, you may catch 50% mites. Of course when I take away capped drone brood, next week they have new larvae in that place.

I can se with my own eyes that when I give to bees zones of drone combs, they will not put drone cells here and there. They really need drones.
My zones all together are  one frame of drones. It is not much when I use to have 15 brood frames. 

If bees have not drone area to raise, they often tear new worker foundations to raise drones.

***********
In many hives chalkbrood hits in drone cells, and sometimes kill most of drone brood. In some hives whole drone area is healthy. So I need to abandon those mothers queen lines where drone are not chalk brood tolerant.

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Cindi
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« Reply #88 on: April 09, 2007, 10:20:04 AM »

Finsky, you certainly speak your mind, speaking one's mind is a good thing in my mind, if you want to say something, then one should go ahead and say it.

Now, this sounds like using the drone comb foundation is an excellent natural method of culling out the queens that have the propensity for chalkbrood disease.  I had chalkbrood disease quite badly in one of my Carniolan packages that I hived last spring.  I requeened when I saw it was a big issue and had no further problem.

BUT, I wonder about this.  The chalkbrood problem may have been because the 4 pound package (with 2 queens) may have not been equally split into two colonies and one did not have enough bees to keep the amount of brood the bees were raising warm enough.  I will never know the answer to this question.  But when I see large amounts of chalkbrood, I will go on the pretense that it is the fault of the queen.

My old beeclub buddy uses drone comb foundation for varroa control.  I believe that he knows what he is talking about.  He has not ever lost any hives to the varroa mite, he proclaims this.  Have the beautiful, great day, with good health.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Finsky
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« Reply #89 on: April 09, 2007, 10:31:29 AM »


Now, this sounds like using the drone comb foundation is an excellent natural method of culling out the queens that have the propensity for chalkbrood disease. 

I had chalkbrood disease quite badly in one of my Carniolan packages that I hived last spring.  I requeened when I saw it was a big issue and had no further problem.

I do not know where I am unclear. I even say too much, but use your own brains and don't believe all what I write.


In Ethiopia they first time had reseach that do they have chakl brood in bee hives. Answer were yes but disease was only in drone brood.
I have many hives that worker brood area is totally good but I find chalk brood from drone cells .

 
Quote
But when I see large amounts of chalkbrood, I will go on the pretense that it is the fault of the queen.

To select queens is only way to get rid of it. There is no drug against chalkbrood.

Quote
  He has not ever lost any hives to the varroa mite, he proclaims this. 

I have lost many.  I know lot of beekepers who has never problems. They just go fine and fast.  It is the positive way to keep bees..
But I nurse my bees and they have problems.

.
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Cindi
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« Reply #90 on: April 09, 2007, 10:46:53 AM »

Finsky, understood.  Have a wonderful day, good health.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Michael Bush
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« Reply #91 on: April 09, 2007, 07:50:44 PM »

>That is surely worst nonsence what I have seen for long time!  Bees cannot math!

I referenced a study by two respected Entomologists,C.G. Levin and C.H. Collison, and you call it the "worst nonsence what I have seen for long time!"

Seems like you have a double standard for proof.

Bees may not be able to count, but they have things that drive them to make drone comb and to rear more or less drones.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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Finsky
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« Reply #92 on: April 09, 2007, 11:05:59 PM »


I referenced a study by two respected Entomologists,C.G. Levin and C.H. Collison, and you call it the "worst nonsence what I have seen for long time!"


Respect or not, but what is the original view point of their research. I tried to look what kind of reseachers they have made but I did not find a report where they handle the sence of brood aborting for mites.

Whole world takes drone cells away and you say that it is vain. May be it is like queen cells aborting.
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Finsky
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« Reply #93 on: April 09, 2007, 11:27:35 PM »


The point is, if you forget a drone frame, you haven't made any difference.  If you remove it, you have removed some varroa and a lot of resources for the bees.



http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/pdf/dronecomb_exchange.pdf

Drone removal experiment in Cornell University 2003

Results: An average of over 7,000 cells of capped drone brood was removed from each treatment colony over the
course of the summer.
*On 7 October, 2003 the average mite-to-bee ratio in the control group was ...about a 5-fold difference.
*However, the differences varied among apiaries. In two of the three apiaries, differences were highly significant (P < 0.0001), being
about 5-fold in one and 10-fold in the other.
*In the third apiary, mite populations were low in both the treatment  and
control groups. The reason for the low levels in the control colonies in that yard are not known, but presumably reflect
environmental effects on population growth rates.

******************

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Finsky
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« Reply #94 on: April 10, 2007, 12:07:51 AM »

http://beebase.csl.gov.uk/public/BeeDiseases/ModellingVarroaTrapping.pdf


Effect of bad quality frames on mite reproduction

It is  a good hint in this research that bad quality combs have bigger percentage of drone brood than new combs. When bees repair broken or molted combs and tera cells down, they like to draw drone cells into gaps.

Bercause drone brood cycle is long, miten can produce much more offsprings in drone pupae.

"The results of the drone-trapping simulations highlight how
difficult it is to control varroa by using drone trapping alone.
Regular removal of most of the natural drone brood was very
effective, but would obviously require much more time input by
the beekeeper than chemical treatment."

"Whatever methods are adopted however, it is very important for beekeepers
to remain vigilant, as re-invasion of hives with mites from nearby
colonies can quickly reverse any effective control."

*****************

It is noticed that even if hive had low miteload, it may get huge load if it robs a hive which is weakend by varroa. Sudden collapse may occur in this case.  That happens easily where wild bees colonies exist.

.

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #95 on: April 10, 2007, 06:28:49 AM »

>Whole world takes drone cells away and you say that it is vain.

"How big a following ... an idea has is not indicative of it whether or not it is based on sound principles or rational thought, or would you suggest that because so many people eat at MacDonalds that they serve healthy food? "
--Keith Benson
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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Finsky
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« Reply #96 on: April 10, 2007, 12:02:26 PM »

because so many people eat at MacDonalds that they serve healthy food? "


MacDonalds, food is healty and very good.
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« Reply #97 on: April 10, 2007, 12:06:25 PM »

because so many people eat at MacDonalds that they serve healthy food? "


MacDonalds, food is healty and very good.
Finsky,

Now I know you are joking.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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carol ann
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« Reply #98 on: May 03, 2007, 12:30:54 AM »

I can't help myself. Perhaps we should feed the mites McDonalds.

Carol Ann
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Finsky
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« Reply #99 on: May 03, 2007, 02:22:30 AM »

I can't help myself. Perhaps we should feed the mites McDonalds.


Here is seed of great idea. McD uses poppy seeds on hamburgers. If they start to use mites instead, mites will become so valuable that they are soon short. Normally it happens that if human start to use something in nature, like mites, so soon we will have lack of mites.  I am sure that in this meaning small cell mites and natural cell mites will be most wanted.  - This alternative is for those who does not like vegetables and cereals.

You eat ants in Mexico, why not mites? Here is scorpion cebabs. http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Asia/China/photo366393.htm
In picture drone pupae and drone pupae powder. Some ingrediments too, pepper like.




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