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Author Topic: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman  (Read 14832 times)
Finsky
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2007, 03:18:16 AM »

... what else could be the cause of bees faster development?

Nothing cause faster development. In African bee genome causes faster development. It is not cell size or temperature. Crossing with European bee and African bee has development time between those two races.

I have seen no measurements, that European bees has faster developmenet than 21 days.

You know, animals and plants have biological rhytm, how they develope and it is in genes.  Human baby has same time like cow, 9 months.
Pigg has 3 months, 3 weeks and 3 days. Easy to remember. Horse has about one year.


In nature is a rule that 10 C rise in temperature causes 2-3 times faster development in biological process. Growing and fastening are different matters.  Plants's growth rises often to 25C but after that respiration of plant rises and it will be soon bigger than sugar synthesis. That is why tomatoes are expencive in the middle of summer when it is too hot in green houses.

Big fishes dive in cool waters in summer because their respiration rises too much and they has lack of oxygen.

But remember, beehive has constant temperature and bees duty is to keep it at same level.  And if you think human babies, they will not develope earlier if mother has fever. - Don't ask why........
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2007, 07:56:42 AM »

It's a simple experiment.  Especially with Honey Super Cell available.  Put some bees in an observation hive with Honey Super Cell (fully drawn plastic 4.9mm comb).  Note when the queen lays and mark the spot on the glass with a number or letter.  Note when it's capped.  Note when it emerges.  On 4.9mm it will be between 18 1/2 and 19 day cycle.  I've done this many times and everyone who has tried it has reported the same results.  Huber reported the same results on natural comb in the late 1700s.

All the recent experiments on time are with large cell bees on large cell comb.

It is irrelevant to bees, but I've hatched many chickens that because of inconsistencies in the incubator hatched a day early or two days late.  Hotter is earlier, colder is later.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2007, 09:02:07 AM »

  On 4.9mm it will be between 18 1/2 and 19 day cycle.  I've done this many times and everyone who has tried it has reported the same results. 

Thanks Michael. This is first time when I see that some one has measured that. Odly it is cycle time of Africanized bee.
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2007, 10:09:04 AM »

ok, so you pointed out it has to do with race-with genes, well african or africanized bees don't live in colder climate from what i've heard. same results as M. bush has my friend from Canada with Italians, ok maybe he hasn't measured the life cycle of the bees, but he certanly keeps with SC and without any treatment.
and finsky, i didn't suggest it developes faster i just suggested that it GROWS as long as it has room, the sooner she fills the room the sooner she starts to develope, and have in mind, the lastest growing stage might take longer since the bees give the larva the ammount of food with which she is supposed to fill a 4,9mm cell.

i hope you don't feel like i'm teasing you or anything, but i'd be very glad if we'd discous this over and maybe come to a god hypothis.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2007, 09:17:55 PM »

>Odly it is cycle time of Africanized bee.

Since they are on the same cell size, it's not really that odd.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2007, 12:50:21 AM »

.
I went through some contries' recommendations how to treat varroa.  IT is easy to find 20 methods what to do. More are recommended in this forum.

When here comes a beginner and says :" I am getting my first bee package, what I should do with varroa" ...... So whole crowd attach on him/her and start to offer his marvellous tricks - ending to nothing. - Don't say : Shake it at once when you get it from post office". I believe that varroa level is not so big that he needs to do anything.

Start of beekeeping cannot go this way.   It is awfull mess  when I read recommendations of this forum. And I have seen that it is coming worse.

Coffee is hot. Needless to say because every one can feel it when he drinks.  It is clear that firts year beekeepr will loose his hives with this information what he gets here.

Information in English language means that it's basic is in strong experience or it is verified with researches. It is something where you can trust on.

In our language we have only one word tieto. In English languiage it is deveided in data, information and knowledge. All meaning different kind of level to "know".

We have proverb "luulo ei ole tiedon väärti". It means "suspect is not value of data".

I do not know how to live with these things but at least try. Now forum is very messy place. Take it resiously.  Beekeeping in USA has really great difficulties even in most talented beekeepers. Don't underestimate it.  If it happens to best beepeekeprs, it surely happens to beginners. Small cell or top bar will help nobody.


Sincerely Adios guys!

Old Fart
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2007, 04:24:56 PM »

Quote
Start of beekeeping cannot go this way

on this, i absolutely agree.  there is so much to learn the first year, and most of it must be learned by hands on.  if you confuse a 1st year person, they end up here the next spring with dead bees wondering what happened.

i'm not knocking the ideas here.  some are really good.  some are really interesting.  all deserve investigation.  however.....without experience, new people trying some of these methods will get into trouble and not realize it in time to save their investment.

i don't think the solution is for people to stop sharing ideas.  that would defeat the purpose of us all getting on here and talking.  maybe the caution should go to new beekeepers that they investigate ideas before jumping into trying them....unless they don't mind additional risk to their hive.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2007, 08:17:42 PM »

It is MUCH easier to do a first regression starting with a package of bees on foundationless or small cell foundation.  What's the down side?
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Michael Bush
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kathyp
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« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2007, 10:03:19 PM »

there may not be a downside to the regression.  the down side would be someone thinking that doing this would be the answer to their mite problem.  if they are inexperienced, they would not realize if they had a serious problem until it was to late to do something about it.

they might also want to know that the research does not back small cell for mite control...so, even if the research is incomplete and small cell ends up being the answer, knowing that there is anecdotal evidence rather than scientific evidence behind regressing to small cell should be part of a persons decision making process.

you can see also that some already find the powdered sugar treatment confusing. 

i'm just trying to point out that for new folks KISS should be the first thing thought of when dispensing advice.  it gets confusing  Undecided
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called the government. They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Michael Bush
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« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2007, 10:14:54 PM »

>there may not be a downside to the regression.  the down side would be someone thinking that doing this would be the answer to their mite problem.

Everyone should monitor.

> if they are inexperienced, they would not realize if they had a serious problem until it was to late to do something about it.

Which is what most people do anyway.  Monitoring Varroa mites is what is complicated, but it's what they need to do.  Reality is not simple.

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2007, 10:33:37 PM »



Hi Finsky,
Glad you're active again.  I appreciate this article quoted above.  I actually have the materials to make the strips they reference and if the powdered sugar shake doesn't get the bees to clean enough mites off of themselves, dropping through my SBB never to return, I'll try this herbal method.

Linda T
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Finsky
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2007, 12:23:41 AM »

I did not meant that you start to try those "herbal" methods. To burn herbal smoke inside hive is worse than normal chemicals, if you are afraid those.

If you really have too much mites think treament carefully. The is no reason to use all kinds of methods. 2 must be enough.

Here is one when you have brood. It is easy to do if you make split. http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html

I am not back. I just tell that stop that awfull nonsence with varroa control. Who ever offers what ever and othesr are clapping their hands. That is serious issue and you have more beekeeping universities in USA as rest world together.  Don't trust what grandfarther's girl friend told you. Animal diseases are not funny thing.  Keep on with best practice. One way is to bye every year new bees.
.
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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2007, 07:24:42 AM »

I was referring to the part of the article that has to do with making strips "Smite the Mite with Nutmeg" that you find when you scroll down the article -

"The ‘Magic’ Formula is:
170g beeswax
450g coconut oil (or any vegetable cooking oil)
15g essential oil (we have tried eucalyptus, nutmeg, peppermint and spearmint)
Preparation
1. Break the beeswax into small pieces.
2. Melt in a double boiler (a large pot with water containing a small pot with the wax) with the coconut oil.
3. Stir until the wax melts completely and allow to cool to 42-45°C. If a thermometer is not available, cool until the mixture just starts to harden at the surface, but is still quite fluid.
4. At this point stir the essential oil into the mixture until thoroughly blended.
Treatment
The above mixture should be sufficient for 50 hives if applied as follows:
1. Cut strips from any of the following: bamboo, Bristol board, cardboard, plastic containers, plywood, or tins. The strips should between two and five cm wide by 20 cm long.
2. On one side of the strip spread one or two teaspoons of the miticide mixture, distributing it evenly.
3. Leave a 1 cm section at each end of the strip clean to avoid getting it on yourself.
4. Push the strip deep into the entrance of the hive undergoing treatment, preferably before 0900 hours on a hot, sunny day. If Varroa is present, the first effects of the treatment (dead or terminally ill mites on the bottom board) can be seen within 2-4 hours. Presumably the hotter and drier the weather, the faster the effects.
5. After 24 hours (longer for lower temperatures), the treatment is over and a number of dead Varroa can be seen under the brood chamber. Also, and possibly for the first time, white males can be observed dead on the bottom board or groggily walking about in a totally uncharacteristic behaviour (normally his whole life takes place within an invaded brood cell)."

I could easily cut the recipe down for my three hives and do this - although I am also switching to small cell over the next year or so.

Linda T

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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2007, 01:50:06 PM »

Finsky - I appreciate your information as well as info from everyone else. I think new beekeepers have to have some level of responsibility to research and not just listen to everything. What works for some may not work for others. But I do like hearing the methods everyone uses as it causes me to think more.

I read the file in your link and find it very interesting. As a new beekeeper I like the idea of having to do a little more with the drone combs because I can be facinated by the bees more. I am a little confused though.

Under "condition of the successful use of the method" it says

Quote
Strong hives: at the beginning of springtime, a hive has to have a minimum of one broodbox and one super with bees.
For each hive, 2 drone frames are necessary. You have to buy drone foundation and attach them to a normal broodbox frame. Since you are going to uncap the dronecells and thrust the larvae out, it is better to use wired foundations.


I have four hives and two nucs. I am getting 4 packages of bees for the hives and have the nucs just in case! Anyway, since I won't have the strong hives at the beginning of springtime like it says, what should I do this first year?
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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2007, 05:30:23 PM »

Finsky,
When using drone comb can you freeze the comb to kill varroa like you can wax moths or do you have to uncap and pull all the drones?
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Mici
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« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2007, 05:39:42 PM »

zunibee quoted some script that says you have to buy drone foundation. well it ain't true, if you're beekeeping in the khm standard way, all foundation that is, the simplest way is  to cut out half of a comb, and since bees on standard foundation lack drones that half will be 100% drone comb, when it's capped you cut it out and discard it/study it/ fry the drones grin.
the freezing thing would be good if you don't won't to put bees through extra labour-building new comb everytime
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Finsky
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« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2007, 07:35:31 PM »

Finsky,
When using drone comb can you freeze the comb to kill varroa like you can wax moths or do you have to uncap and pull all the drones?


Freezing is slow and laborous job.

I give 2-3 brood area into hive by melting medium foundation into Langstroth frame. Bees build very guickly drone combs where ever they have space.

When brood is capped, I cut it away and give to birds or burry into ground. In couple of days bees have new combs again in the gap.

Two whole combs are too much for drones. It essential note that only larva brood catch mites. As capped drone brood stay long  in hive and not catch mites.

Medium foundation into frame and bees make drone cells into gap. Frames are inside brood area



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« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2007, 08:43:37 PM »

Would it work to cut off the bottom of medium depth foundation as well?It seems like it would but I'm not sure.
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« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2007, 11:48:44 PM »

It should also be stated vehemently that you need to keep track of when this drone comb needs to come out. If left too long and all those infested drones emerge, you will end up with a bigger mite problem than you started with.
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« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2007, 12:38:03 AM »

I do not take headace if combs are cut or not. Drone catching is not real mite removal method to me.  It is nice that drones are in one or two place and not everywhere, because it makes harm when I draw combs from box. 

Drone areas are usefull. However bees make drones somewhere.

I look from drones, how much I se mites.  Last summer I saw very few mites in dronecombs but with oxalic acid it fell 300-500 mites from every hive.

I have total brood brake in hives and I need only one treatment. I don't even calculate them because it helps nothing.  So it has gone without problems. I have treated  mites 20 years and I am not worried anything. Mites are my friend.

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But 2 drone frames are absolutly too much in hive. It makes 20% of brood area and makes as much harm to honey yield as varroa itsef.

.
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