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Author Topic: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman  (Read 15097 times)
Finsky
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« on: March 25, 2007, 08:02:17 AM »

.
It is sad to read on this from that new beekeepers are encouraged to try the most unefficient methods to handle varroa.

There are official recommendations what to do to mites. It means that great efforts have made in Europe and in USA on industrial level to avoid disasters of varroa. I had no intention to write any more here because it seems to be vain here but I cannot sleep when I read these writings.

I myself have made big effort to copy and paste and teached European methods how to live with mites. It is easy if you use good methods.  It is sad to read that  "best" recommendated methods b*.* here, and grandfathers out of date ideas are best currency here.

Sugar shaking is one how it is offered here.  " Do nothing " is another why I loosed my mind with these shamans. Some one wrote:" Start to sugar shaking when brooding has started in the hive". - What a mistake. When mites are inside brood cappings it late to start conrolling.

1) What is the meanging to give sugar bath to the hive every second week? Never heard that. At least I have not seen recommendations.

2) Sugar does not kill mites. It is only checking mites. To calculate mites all the time helps nothing.

3) How do you shake hive every two week if hive has 6 boxes? - Its is easy. You never will have so big hive if you disturb all the time hive with all kind of tricks, even if they are official.

If you have handled broodeles hive in winter, you need not give any handling before next winter.

Counting mites: Usual way to count mites is follow naturally dead mites under screened bottom. You need not shake bees with sugar.



You really have "best practice" recommendations. It is easy to follow them. It is catastrophy to beginners if first year beekeepers teaches they odd tricks.

Mite control is serious matter and not a place to invent your own wheel.  Even if you try tricks in your on hives, you should not teach what ever to other beginners which have not basic knoledge to choose. Even if it is nice to change opinions, it should be some responsibilyty what kind of knowledge you offer to other beekeepers in internet.

If you are afraid of chemicals, here is totally sugar and chemical mehtod to clean 95% mites from hive. Spring and summer is difficult time to cure varroa because mites are mostly under brood caps. 


http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html
.



« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 09:41:04 AM by Finsky » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2007, 08:11:40 AM »

Hi Finsky,

Nice to see you posting again.

I posted about not using sugar treatments while in package mode.
I don't think package bees are a cohesive enough unit or strong enough for a powdered sugar treatment. Also when you do use a powdered sugar treatment you will cause the bees to help clean one another and they do remove mites when they do that. It is a powdered sugar treament, not a powdered sugar cure.

Also you end up with very few mites if any in a small cell hive. So the mites getting into the brood doesn't really happen.

I have to admit though when Michael and Finsky both agree chances are I may need to rethink the way I handle a situation.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Finsky
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2007, 08:18:25 AM »


So the mites getting into the brood doesn't really happen.


And you are ready to guarantee this. --- Even if you have a miteless hive, next week it may get new hives, or next year.  But shake hive every to week - never heard.
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2007, 08:38:47 AM »

Good article finsky!
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Cindi
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2007, 09:55:37 AM »

Finsky, it is a bummer when one lays awake at night, not being able to sleep, worrying about things.  You have concern about new beekeepers being taught wrong stuff.  Your words are important, with many many years of the voice of experience and I would suggest that these words be listened to.  Some will listen, others not, that is life. 

The post on drone cell collection for mite control is a very good way.  It has been proven and is used extensively here in my country by many.  The drone foundation we buy is green, very visible in the hive and is easily seen for removal.

My hives have gone through a broodless period this winter.  I am of the high hope that the varroa levels are low and I plan to keep them this way this year.  I have learned through my many mistakes and hope to become a better beekeeper through these trials.  Best of the best day.  Cindi
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2007, 11:18:13 AM »

I have not used powdered sugar, but it has been well documented as a useful mite treatment.  Usually it's done every week for three weeks in the spring when there is little brood in the hive and every week for three weeks in the fall after brood rearing is cutting back a lot.

I, for one, have NEVER advocated doing nothing for mites.  I have advocated natural cell size.  Doing nothing will result in a dead hive, usually within two years or less.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2007, 12:21:54 PM »

Some will listen, others not, that is life. 



You are talking life Cindy.

I am talking only the information quality of this forum,  WORLD'S NO.1 Ranked Bee Forum. More worried I am when this forum deliver to first hive owners unselected information. I am talking about information delivery responsibility.

It was said to me that my opinion is as valuable as others. I have not offered opinionin this forum in varroa issues. I have tryed to transmit sure, well tested and 95% sure treatments.  And treatments are different now as 5 years ago. 

But you are dealing animal diseases and you are adult people. Think your responsibility.
This is not not competition who invents the most unusual wheel.

When you look "sugar shake varroa" from google, I se the value of detecting mites. I cannot found that it is the way of get rid off varroa.
http://www.google.fi/search?q=sugar+shake+varroa&hl=fi&start=10&sa=N

I speak veterinary information, not "my friend told me" information, nor forum information. If POWDERED-SUGAR SHAKE is mite killing metdods, where is the efficacy tests of treatment? What is the percent figure?

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/entomology/444-103/444-103.html
http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis_2000/apfeb_2000.htm

It is same with other methods which are not so valuble that reseaches want to consider it as method.


I hope that forum thinks over how to keep quality on forum. If everyone's opinions are valid with knowledge, nothing can save US beekeeping Lips Sealed

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It was year 1977. I sold my apartment to a man who had made 10 years repairing works in Moscow hotels and other buildings. He told that Russian are nice people and it is nice to take drinks with them. But he told that Soviet Union will collapse because no nation can survive if they live like Soviets. They accept what ever result what drunken or nonskilled workmen do.  He said that 1977 and officially USSR collapsed 1990.  And  it was only world's largest country. http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/hies97/e/fig16.jpg

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« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2007, 02:07:34 PM »

MB, you know i am not sold on the natural size cells, but i do have a question.

if you regress to the smaller cell size and the bees are smaller, do you not still have the same amount of room for mites?
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2007, 02:13:48 PM »

kathy, i don't think it has got a lot to do with room. the thing is the bee developes faster, since she doesn't have to grow that large. what you mentioned..i think that it has got something to do with varoa getting underneath the larvae in the SC-that way it dies, why does it occur more often, i don't know. and another thing, regular sized bees have a bigger thorax and chest but the legs are the same size, so she can't groom herself completely while her smaller sisters can.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2007, 03:07:26 PM »

>If POWDERED-SUGAR SHAKE is mite killing metdods, where is the efficacy tests of treatment?

There were several studies done in Europe on powdered sugar.  I've seen one presented that was done at the University of Nebraska by Nick Aliano.  The results of that study were that it got rid of 70 to 90% of the phoretic mites.  The difference had to do with how hot the bees got and how crowded they were during the treatment.

>if you regress to the smaller cell size and the bees are smaller, do you not still have the same amount of room for mites?

As mentioned, that's not the entire issue, but as far as room, in a large cell the larvae expands as much as it can and fails to fill the cell.  In a small cell, the larvae is the same.  The genetics is the same.  It starts with the same egg and it grows as large as it can in the cell provided and FILLS the cell.  But the biggest effect is probably the one day shorter capping and one day shorter post capping times.  The Varroa have less time to infest the cell (shorter capping time) and less time to reproduce (shorter post capping time).
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2007, 03:07:44 PM »

OK, and faster developing bees would be a plus in hive build up also.  why have mites been such a problem for wild hives then?  it seems they would have been naturally resistant to the mites?

i'm asking all these questions because i do plan to experiment with the starter strips.  as a result, over time, i should end up with bees and cells regressed to smaller size?  i am not doing this for mite control, but i am interested in seeing if this makes any difference in my hives.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2007, 03:18:59 PM »



There were several studies done in Europe on powdered sugar. 

I know that. One man doctor research studies with that issue in Finnish university and reported that it is good. But no one in Finlad use that method.

I mean, if there are better and handy methods, why don't you use them?  Question is not some one has done once upon time.


MICI : have you measurements from these "i don't think it has got a lot to do with room. the thing is the bee developes faster, since she doesn't have to grow that large."  - Where you get that fact?  Can you give a reaseach or measurements?   

Many say that small cells are warmer and that is why growth is shorter. But who has measured a) temperature b) speed.

**********

I have not seen in European varroa control recommendations that sugar shaking.  But there are about ten good treatment where you may choose. I may say that European varroa treatment is ahead others and they are high quality researches.





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Mici
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2007, 03:32:07 PM »






MICI : have you measurements from these "i don't think it has got a lot to do with room. the thing is the bee developes faster, since she doesn't have to grow that large."  - Where you get that fact?  Can you give a reaseach or measurements?   

Many say that small cells are warmer and that is why growth is shorter. But who has measured a) temperature b) speed.

**********

I have not seen in European varroa control recommendations that sugar shaking.  But there are about ten good treatment where you may choose. I may say that European varroa treatment is ahead others and they are high quality researches.





.

oh finsky, you know it very well i don't have a "scientific" answer to your question.

a friend from Canada told me that, well he didn't say that they develope faster because they fill the smaller cell faster but that is my assumption. you might ask why? because he also noticed-when transfering from normal cell to SC that the SC bees have a smaller body, like i said before. well, who around here doesn't it find reasonable that development to fullfiling a 4,9 cell takes less time than to develope to 5.2?

anyways i admit, most of it are assumptions, but the do seem logical.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2007, 03:36:04 PM »

>OK, and faster developing bees would be a plus in hive build up also.

And they have more brood in the same space.

Cells on one deep frame of 5.4mm foundation 7000
Cells on one deep frame of 4.9mm foundation 8400

>why have mites been such a problem for wild hives then?  it seems they would have been naturally resistant to the mites?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2007, 03:59:49 PM »


anyways i admit, most of it are assumptions, but the do seem logical.


I have studied biology and genetics in Helsinki University 6 years. I got researcher education. What seems logical, it is not valid in real life. What is true with one animal, is not valid with another. 

In every beebook it is said that cycle of bee brood is 21 days. Nowhere it is said that varies according the size.

Bees regulate brood temperature and keep it constant.

I have seen myself that the brood cycle of queen may lengten 3 days if it is in cold super where is not enough bees to keep it warm.

I have seen quite small queens but their development is as long as bigger one's. Some are size of worker.

But here is more "wild man's " methods http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/info/info/disease/varroa.shtml
.

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Finsky
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2007, 04:05:59 PM »

.
If you read varroa problem in South Africa, you may se that in nature bees are smaller than "tamed bees" which produce more honey and have large size. That is result of human selection when beekeepers select better foragers.

In South Africa African bee does not have natural varroa tolerance. Wild bees are in very bad condition everywhere. Beekeepers just wait that resistant bee stock emerge naturally somewhere.

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Mici
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2007, 04:28:36 PM »

once again finsky you are right, there's no doubt about it. and in no way is saying something is logical-a scientific approach, i agree.
BUT, finksy, do not forget SC WORKS! that's all PERIOD, my "logical" assumptions were merely doing something what we humans like to do-knowing why something works, if there are no scientist researching about it, all we can do is speculate, guess, explain it in a way that seems logic, that's all.
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Finsky
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2007, 04:39:14 PM »

if there are no scientist researching about it, all we can do is speculate, guess, explain it in a way that seems logic, that's all.

Of course you can. But I say to you Mici, think about your responsibility, how you deliver you ideas in serious mater like bee diseases?  You are not deleivering logic.

That is Jerrymac's stupid sentence "if scientist researching about " and even if it is, never mind. World is free.

Speak to goat we say.
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2007, 04:48:06 PM »

took it to my knowledge finsky! you are right, should have been more careful.
but now that we are talking about it, what else could be the cause of bees faster development?
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2007, 10:21:35 PM »

One day we may be able to use oxalic acid in the U.s.
Until then it's formic acid pads and experimentation for some.
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