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Author Topic: new hive and small cell foundation?  (Read 3634 times)
Eve Sylvia
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2007, 04:04:42 PM »

Thanks for all the info, so small cells are the norm for feral bees, then. It was explained to me that they were made smaller than normal thereby causing the bees to hatch a day or 2 earlier, that is what concerned me. So, that's not true?
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kgbenson
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2007, 05:13:25 PM »

There are several things wrong with the above statement: Let me list two.
A) No one would say that such a crash is uniformly fatal 100% of the time.
B) The above is an anecdote, and as such has no predictive value in an of itself.

I am glad you survived it

Keith "the plural of anecdote is not data" Benson
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kgbenson
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2007, 05:30:05 PM »

"There are these people that do all of this stuff, write papers on it, publish books on it, and everyone believes what they say, after all, why would they lie? The thing is that scientific studies cost money."

Ah yes the money/conspiracy thing.  Fact is, most researchers that are not in the private sector are brutally honest.  It is part of the whole "I am trying to find the truth" mentality they seem to have.  Those crazy buggers are actually looking for the correct asnwer to their questions, go figure.  It is the search for obejctive descriptions of the world around them that attracts them to science in the first place.

And for what it is worth most of the guys in the private sector are very honest too.

"Now the drug companies prosper when you have to dump drugs into a hive."

LOL - the sales of checkmite are probably somewhere on at the 10th decimal place on the Bayer earnings sheet.

"No one makes money off of nothing going into a hive so what does this tell us?"

It tells us that you never paid for your equiptment or your bees.  The statement is false.  I don't knwo about you, but I did pay for the stuff that went into my hives, and the hives themselves for that matter.  Ever piece od wood, every nail, the glue, foundation, bees (well most of the bees) etc.

"Now to make all this treatment stuff work the way it is suppose to work one has to do it right. Certain things need to be done at certain times, or you mess up and lose your bees. Small Cell has to be done right or you lose your bees. The only difference I see is that Small cell takes less work and you don't have to dump all that money on all the treatment stuff. "

Small cell, during regression is not necessarily easier, personally I found ti frustrating.  After the bees are regressed, if you buy all the claims, things do get easier.  Which is why I finally said enough and bought bees that were already regressed.  I wan't going to do it a second time.

"Now what has the Small Cell folks got to gain by telling you something that would cause you to lose your hives? No one is making money from you if you do it their way."

There are other benefits of the notroriety that have nothing to do with money.  Money is not the only motivator of people.

"There are many small/natural cell folks all around the country that have kept bees with out the use of chemicals. (And some large cell beeks have done it with no chemicals) They have done it for years. "

Yep - in fact the most successful hive I have at the moment is large cell.  The three small cell hives that were right next door are caput.  Oh - and I have a TBH that is way out of control it is doing so well.

I use small cell, and have some regressed bees at another location that are doing well.  Is it the small cell?  I dunno, but it doesn't hurt to use the stuff so I figure what the hey.  Of course I didn't have to spend my kids colledge tuition to regress thousands of colonies.

But the facts are these, science is not some dark conspiracy where the dollar is the diety, and there is no decent study done to date that support or refute the small cell claims.  There are lods of annecdotes, largely by people who are not trained to make objective judgements.

Truth be told, many researchers wont touch it because A) they think it is not worthy of spending their time and funds on and B) there will never be a study designed that will satisfy the small cell devotees . . unless it fully supports all the contentions of some of the most vocal pproponants.

Dadant seels a fair bit of small cell thanks to the power of the internet, maybe they should spring for a study ot three.


Keith
« Last Edit: April 01, 2007, 09:50:36 PM by kgbenson » Logged

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2007, 07:47:26 PM »

>Thanks for all the info, so small cells are the norm for feral bees

Yes.

> then. It was explained to me that they were made smaller than normal thereby causing the bees to hatch a day or 2 earlier, that is what concerned me.

Bees have always emerged a day or 2 earlier than most say.  This is easily verified by looking at any study before the time of foundation that measured the time.  Huber is certainly one of those and he observed that shorter time on natural cell back in 1791.

> So, that's not true?

It's not true that small cell is forcing the bees to do anything they would not have preferred to do if they had not been forced to use larger cells.

If you want to know about natural cell size, read this:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
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Michael Bush
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2007, 11:33:28 AM »

First Keith says;

Ah yes the money/conspiracy thing.  Fact is, most researchers that are not in the private sector are brutally honest.  It is part of the whole "I am trying to find the truth" mentality they seem to have.  Those crazy buggers are actually looking for the correct asnwer to their questions, go figure.  It is the search for obejctive descriptions of the world around them that attracts them to science in the first place.

Then he says;
Truth be told, many researchers wont touch it because A) they think it is not worthy of spending their time and funds on and B) there will never be a study designed that will satisfy the small cell devotees . . unless it fully supports all the contentions of some of the most vocal pproponants.

So it is about the money more than "the whole "I am trying to find the truth" mentality".


It tells us that you never paid for your equiptment or your bees.  The statement is false.  I don't knwo about you, but I did pay for the stuff that went into my hives, and the hives themselves for that matter.  Ever piece od wood, every nail, the glue, foundation, bees (well most of the bees) etc.

 rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes

You seem to me to be a learned man. At least that is how you attempt to present yourself. So I am surprised that you thought I was talking about all the wood and wax and nails and bees and stuff. I was actually talking about the chemicals that are used to treat the various diseases and pest.
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kgbenson
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« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2007, 03:14:01 PM »

"So it is about the money more than "the whole "I am trying to find the truth" mentality"."

There is a difference between a limited research budget of not only money but *time* vs and producing a specific result or hiding a specific result, or tweaking data etc. for financial renumeration.

"You seem to me to be a learned man."

Thanks, I try to learn something every day.  Some days I am more successful than others.

"At least that is how you attempt to present yourself."

Um, I am not trying to "present myself", merely having a discussion and "presenting" my thoughts.  I ahve worked with loads of reaserchers at many levels.  Most are chasing information, not personal financial gain. 

"So I am surprised that you thought I was talking about all the wood and wax and nails and bees and stuff. I was actually talking about the chemicals that are used to treat the various diseases and pest."

My apologies, the tongue in cheek thing doesn't work well via these forums, you would think I'd ahve learned by now.

Keith
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2007, 04:21:30 PM »

Yep..... You missed the tongue in cheek reply to your tongue in cheek response.
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tig
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2007, 07:29:33 PM »

speaking of finsky...where is he?  he's been strangely quiet....
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kgbenson
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« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2007, 10:32:56 PM »

Yep..... You missed the tongue in cheek reply to your tongue in cheek response.

DOH!

Keith
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Eve Sylvia
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2007, 02:24:18 PM »

Thanks for all the info on small cell, Michael, I guess I have it already! I never use much foundation. I will measure when I go in next, to see what's there.
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Cindi
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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2007, 12:31:37 PM »

Finsky, well, I think that he has got fed up with responding to posts on the forum and perhaps his advice not being worth much (meaning listened to).  I can be blatent.  But that is what I believe.  He is worried about the health of the world's bees and in his own mind, new beekeepers being taught inappropriate methods for many things relevant to bee health.  He has indicated in many of his posts recently that he is getting fed up with giving information (many, many sites given for us to read) and in the next post reading that what he has said is like nothing has sunk into some peoples' heads, information gone right through and out the other side.  I dunno know.  Only Finsky knows.  I am sure that he has good reasons for withdrawal.  Or maybe he is just plain and simply, busy.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day.  Cindi

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2007, 01:52:22 PM »

>Thanks for all the info on small cell, Michael, I guess I have it already! I never use much foundation. I will measure when I go in next, to see what's there.

Depending on the size of the bee drawing it and the time of year etc. it could be anywhere from 5.1mm to 4.7mm.  But if you started with large cell bees it's more likely 5.1mm.  What's in the brood nest is the issue.  The bees will build larger cells elsewhere.
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Michael Bush
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Kirk-o
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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2007, 08:10:14 PM »

Do what Mother Nature does use small cell all bees were small cell til man came along.Wild bees are doing greart with small cell and no chemicals.Mother Nature does not use chemicals man does.Work with nature use chemicals and watch your bees die anyway.Let the Bees use small cell and become resistant to the mites they ain't going away.
kirk-o
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