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Author Topic: The UK shows what can happen in the US.  (Read 2730 times)
Understudy
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« on: March 10, 2007, 07:45:42 PM »

As a geek I read geek sites. Geeks are very much about personal rights and freedoms. So I thought I would repost this story from slashdot. For our UK beekeepers pease let me know what you have experienced.

http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/10/1846241

Please look into the links on the story.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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kathyp
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2007, 08:09:34 PM »

it is true that the government of the uk is more intrusive than we are used to.  their laws are quite different.  it is not true that the uk is the most spied on.  in fact, they have less government than most of the the eu countries (or eu wannabes). 

my problem with statements like this is that you can find this kind of stuff on any wing nut site.  they don't back up what they say with fact.  the "facts" they present are usually incorrect or taken out of the context of the entire law.

i can give you a site in Australia that's great.  if you read through it, you'll believe that we are being chemically, electronically, and supernaturally poisoned by -take your pick- their government, our government, space aliens, and assorted big businesses.  it all sounds very logical and they back up what they present with "facts". 

i'm not saying this guy is wrong, but folks tend to get all wound up about a thing before they know what they are talking about, or because they have an agenda and want to wind other people up.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2007, 10:25:47 PM »

Aren't we already there?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070310/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/national_security_letters;_ylt=Aq9eIqm923tNUZjHDYj2C86s0NUE

"Under the Patriot Act, the national security letters give the FBI authority to demand that telephone companies, Internet service providers, banks, credit bureaus and other businesses produce personal records about their customers or subscribers."
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kathyp
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2007, 11:44:59 PM »

here is the deal as i see it....first, i don't get to wigged about the patriot act.  i have actually read it, and it's tweaks.  it still gets tweaked as it get challenged.  the provisions in the patriot act extend the tools that the DEA has had for years, to the FBI, etc.  am i happy to see government intruding into peoples lives?  no.  however, we let that horse out of the barn when we allowed the feds to regulate machine guns, drugs, education, contribute to welfare, health care, and social security.  none of these things should ever have been touched by the feds, but here we are.....

england has a few problems that we really do need to be careful to avoid.  it is a social welfare state and tony blair is the no. 1 socialist.  a lot of americans like him because he is our buddy on international stuff, but he's as far left as al gore or edwards on domestic issues.  england also has been very, very, lax on immigration.  residents of former colonies come and go as they please and collect welfare.  almost anyone who claims oppression in their homeland stays...no questions asked...and collects welfare.  in their effort to be kind to all, they have allowed hate speech, incitement to riot, incitement to murder, and terrorist cells, to exist without question...until they blow something up.

now they, and other EU countries have a big mess to clean up.  they have huge disenfranchised welfare populations who are being recruited and radicalized by imams allowed to say and do whatever they want.  these are people sent in to teach in mosques for the express purpose of recruiting terrorists.

if there is a problem that england has, and we need to avoid, this is it.  unfortunately, that may mean that we use the technology at hand to catch these people....while we keep an eye on our government to make sure they do not creep out of bounds. 

so far we seem to be doing a reasonably good job on both fronts.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 11:54:20 PM »

What? No comment about the FBI overstepping the bounds and breaking the law?
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Understudy
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« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 12:15:27 AM »

The problem is very simple. The patriot act created a chance for the FBI and the NSA to overstep bounds. It removed rights. Guess what they did. Plain and simple. The issue with the UK is the same. The government securoty agencies are overstepping. Instead of saying the horse is out of the barn to late. How about putting the horse back in the barn and giving government agenices that overstep their bounds more than a slap on the wrist. And make sure they quit hiding behind the fearmongering and claiming terrorism when they have overstepped their bounds.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 12:25:15 AM »

Well you know, there are those that give up there freedoms and privacy willingly for a bit of imagined security. They have neat little phrases like, "I have nothing to hide". And darn it, I forgot that other one I was thinking of.
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Understudy
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« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 12:30:31 AM »

    'Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither' - Benjamin Franklin
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« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2007, 12:44:06 AM »

   'Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither' - Benjamin Franklin

Very good sentence. Precious.
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reinbeau
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2007, 09:00:42 AM »

   'Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither' - Benjamin Franklin
Absolutely.  People need to hear and remember this - but few are listening.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2007, 11:04:56 AM »

yes i care that the FBI did something it should not have done.  i also care that they were caught.  it is hardly the first time an agency has done something it ought not to have done.

as for putting the horse back in the barn...to do that you would have no more federal 'help' for hurricanes, schools, no drug regulations, no gun control, no roe v. wade, no federal civil rights act, no Medicare, no SSI.  you would go back to the way the state and federal governments were intended to run.  that's OK  with me.  that is what i'd like to see.  however, i don't think most americans would agree.

we have already decided that for our comfort we give up our freedoms to the feds.  it seems kind of funny that all of a sudden people are upset and want to draw some kind of arbitrary line.  we broke it long ago and no one would stand for the fix.  so yes...we face a new enemy and need to adjust to it.  why is this different than any other adjustment we have made for the sake of convince.

this is what you get when you, on the one had call the constitution a 'living document', and on the other hand, want to hold on to the right that document gives you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

my point about england is this:  they are in a bad fix because they didn't use good sense in dispensing "rights" to those who were in, or came into the country.  we need to be careful that we balance our rights with some common sense.  i'd rather have the FBI chasing down terrorist leads, and maybe stumbling through my library records, than have my city wasting money on street corner cameras and listening devices.....which truly do infringe on the right to privacy that the supreme court has so kindly given us.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2007, 11:32:40 AM »

yes i care that the FBI did something it should not have done.  i also care that they were caught.  it is hardly the first time an agency has done something it ought not to have done.

as for putting the horse back in the barn...to do that you would have no more federal 'help' for hurricanes, schools, no drug regulations, no gun control, no roe v. wade, no federal civil rights act, no Medicare, no SSI.  you would go back to the way the state and federal governments were intended to run.  that's OK  with me.  that is what i'd like to see.  however, i don't think most americans would agree.
Saying that putting a limit on the allowances of the federal government is the same as eliminating civil rights, medicare, ssi and others you mentioned is incorrect. They are not even in the same league. The idea behind the curtailing federal abuses is to make sure we maintain our rights as citizens.

Quote
we have already decided that for our comfort we give up our freedoms to the feds.  it seems kind of funny that all of a sudden people are upset and want to draw some kind of arbitrary line.  we broke it long ago and no one would stand for the fix.  so yes...we face a new enemy and need to adjust to it.  why is this different than any other adjustment we have made for the sake of convince.
I didn't make that decision and I didn't support it then or now.  People have been upset about this recently it is just more recently that they are begining to see and feel the implications of the abuses. We do not face a new enemy we face one that that doesn't like us with a new name.

Quote
this is what you get when you, on the one had call the constitution a 'living document', and on the other hand, want to hold on to the right that document gives you.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

my point about england is this:  they are in a bad fix because they didn't use good sense in dispensing "rights" to those who were in, or came into the country.  we need to be careful that we balance our rights with some common sense.  i'd rather have the FBI chasing down terrorist leads, and maybe stumbling through my library records, than have my city wasting money on street corner cameras and listening devices.....which truly do infringe on the right to privacy that the supreme court has so kindly given us.

So what happened in the U.K. couldn't happen here? Oh wait it already has.
Passports have RFID tags. Phone systems are tapped. Habeas Corpus is repealed and the president can declare anyone an enemy combatant. That is just some of what is going on.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2007, 12:00:07 PM »

as for putting the horse back in the barn...to do that you would have no more federal 'help' for hurricanes, schools, no drug regulations, no gun control, no roe v. wade, no federal civil rights act, no Medicare, no SSI.  you would go back to the way the state and federal governments were intended to run.  that's OK  with me.  that is what i'd like to see.  however, i don't think most americans would agree.

Didn't a bunch of that stuff come about after women got the right to vote?  grin

I'm with Understudy on the fact that I didn't chose for any of that to happen. But if all that stuff was put to a vote today, I bet the biggest majority of the people would want to keep all of it.
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« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2007, 12:11:02 PM »

Quote
Saying that putting a limit on the allowances of the federal government is the same as eliminating civil rights, medicare, SSI and others you mentioned is incorrect

it is correct.  none of these things are things that the feds should have been involved in.  it is convenient for us that they are, so it is not challenged.  all of these things were challenged when they were put in place, for the same reasons you challenge the provisions of the patriot act.

Quote
We do not face a new enemy we face one that that doesn't like us with a new name

relatively new.  we began this war in the '70's.  the problem is that most people didn't recognize the fact that we were at war, and sadly, many people still do not realize it.

Quote
Habeas Corpus is repealed and the president can declare anyone an enemy combatant

not true.  try not to let your political leanings interfere with your common sense.

on anyones list of best presidents are Lincoln and FDR.  they both fought wars that changed the course of history.  they also threw the constitution in the trash to do it.
that has not happened here.  yes, there are things that are being done that we would not want done in normal times.  would you go back an tell FDR that he could not intercept calls, telegraphs, and letters?  would you tell him that he could not contain the press?  Lincoln really did suspend habeas corpus.  he had political rivals arrested and jailed.  he shut down free speech.  he did it to win a war.

Johnson misused the national guard to force unconstitutional civil rights measures.  would you go back and say that he could not do that?  the voting rights acts was unconstitutional.  desegregation was unconstitutional.  would you go back and change those things?

we are at war.  you may not like that.  you may not believe it.  it's a war that started 30 years ago, but most people didn't notice until 9/11.  not noticing or not believing does not make it less a fact.

Quote
Didn't a bunch of that stuff come about after women got the right to vote?

yup...again, feds had no right to mess with it.  not a federal issue and should have stayed with the states.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2007, 06:36:00 PM »

we are at war.  you may not like that.  you may not believe it.  it's a war that started 30 years ago, but most people didn't notice until 9/11.  not noticing or not believing does not make it less a fact.

I asked this question a few times before and never got an answer. Since you know when it started perhaps you know how it started. The question is why did these people start hating the USA? They just one day awoke and said, "We decided we hate that country across the pond."

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« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 07:22:22 PM »

i think i can give you the RD answer.  i'll try not to write a book  smiley

the war didn't start with us and them.  it actually started around the 1920's with some disgruntled Arabs fighting their own governments.  some of them were radical islamists, and some called themselves 'Palestinians'.  these groups did not necessarily have the same goals, but they employed the same terrorist tactics.

after ww2, the UN and allied countries provided a convenient target for some of these groups by re-establishing the nation of Israel.  about 75% of the region of Palestine was supposed to be given to the "Palestinians" to solve the Arabs problem with these folks, and the other 25% was to be the nation of Israel.  long story short....the surrounding Arab countries decided that they'd rather attack Israel than keep their part of the bargain, and they promised the whole area would be Arab.  didn't quite work out for them and that conflict has gone one ever since....

meanwhile, you had a bunch of Muslims that were becoming more and more radical in their beliefs.  some of it had to do with non-Muslims in what they considered their land.  some of it had to do with Israel.  some of it had to do with Arab governments becoming more moderate, and even recognizing Israel. 

if you go back and do a little research on groups like the Egyptian Brotherhood, later the Muslim Brotherhood, you find that some of the radicals involved in that group are now involved in fighting us.   Sadat was murdered by these folks.

it's not the US against the radicals.  it's non-radicals against radicals.  this includes other Muslims, Europeans, and anyone who does not embrace or bow down to radical Islam.

there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world.  most are not radicals, but the number is growing.  if only a small percentage are radicals, and are willing to kill and die for what they believe, that leaves millions out there who will not hesitate to strap on a bomb.  many millions more support them both logistically and financially. 

we didn't think the  Japanese were smart enough, or advanced enough to attack us.  turns out, they were closer to a nuke than the Germans were.  perhaps within weeks of testing.  we were arrogant in our beliefs then and we paid for it.  it would be foolish to be so arrogant again. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2007, 07:32:01 PM »

OK. I know we are off topic here but you didn't mention any thing about why they hate us. (I know you hinted at it)
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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2007, 08:00:57 PM »

they have any number of reasons that they give for hating us.  there is only one real reason.  they hate us because we are infidels.  they hate everyone, including other Muslims, who do not follow their strict interpretation of Islamic law.  things like Israel, oil, business, Palestinian homeland, military bases, etc. are all excuses that they pull out whenever convenient.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2007, 10:22:42 PM »

I was hoping you were going to say something like they were picking on Israel and we jumped in the middle of it and now they hate us. I didn't know they hated people an ocean away just because they did.
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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2007, 11:45:51 PM »

that can't be it. it does piss them off that we support Israel, but they were at it before Israel even existed (again).  they pick on other Muslims who don't agree with them.  they pick on other non-Muslim countries who don't embrace Islam.  some of the countries that have the biggest problems with radicals are Muslim countries.

we don't really need to wonder why they hate.  they have told us over and over again.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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