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Cindi
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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2007, 09:46:18 AM »

In our BeeScene magazine, our Provincial Apiculturist mentioned that there is some speculation about the CCD may have to do with pesticide and HFCS (high fructose corn syrup).

I remember reading in books that HFCS is not a desirable food for bees but it appears that many many use it for bee feed.  Personally, I use white sugar only (mixed with water of course).   My 2 cents.  Have an awesome and wonderful day, Cindi.
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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2007, 12:18:11 PM »

the whole GM theory is great, but were any of the bees that have been lost, exposed to GM crops?  i have yet to hear anyone make the connection.

we are not losing our backyard bees to CCD.  this kind of thing has happened before...long before GM crops. 

while the idea of genetically modifying anything does not thrill me, it is done all the time in more than just your food.  in truth, how we choose to breed or bees, horses, dogs, etc. is genetic modification and has been done from the beginning of breeding animals (and people).

lots of people don't like and don't understand GM.  i am in that category.  i only understand the potential benefits, but don't know if they outweigh the risk.  i do understand that it is dangerous to try to fit the (perceive) villain to the crime.

my votes are

1.  this is some kind of reoccurring 'thing' that they get which compromises their immune system.  we know that similar things have happened before.

2.  some kind of new pesticide or even pest is getting to them.  if not a pesticide, a new bug that the mite are passing along?

3.  every 50 years of so, there is a big bee conference somewhere and they all fly off to it.  it's a chance to keep in touch with the relatives, talk about the weather....all that stuff.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2007, 03:35:04 PM »

GMOs as I understand it can include taking DNA material from one species and placing it into another. Can you imagine some human genes in your watermelon? Would that make us cannibals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2007, 04:04:06 PM »

Quote
Would that make us cannibals?


now there is a thought smiley

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Dane Bramage
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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2007, 06:54:49 PM »

Quote from: kathyp
while the idea of genetically modifying anything does not thrill me, it is done all the time in more than just your food.  in truth, how we choose to breed or bees, horses, dogs, etc. is genetic modification and has been done from the beginning of breeding animals (and people).

You're attempting to equate hybridising; a natural breeding selection method, with genetic engineering.   rolleyes

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wayne
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« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2007, 07:32:22 PM »

  From what I've seen the last few weeks the problem is just as bad in Britain and Europe. And they don't have migratory Beeks.
  Everyone is trying to blame their favorite Boogyman for this. Too bad there isn't a centralized location to track this. I lean toward the Alien abduction theory myself. It's as good as any.
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« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2007, 08:29:20 PM »

Quote
You're attempting to equate hybridising; a natural breeding selection method, with genetic engineering.

simply pointing out that both man and nature change genetic makeup of things from time to time.  sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

also trying to point out that just because we do not like a thing, we can not blame the thing for all that goes wrong.  people in poor countries who benefit from our excess food, probably are grateful for our pesticides and "enhanced" crops.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2007, 09:50:23 PM »

simply pointing out that both man and nature change genetic makeup of things from time to time.  sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.
There is a (subtle?) difference between those two methods.  Selective breeding (either natural or man-controlled) may have desirable or undesirable results (subjective) but has, since the dawn of life, likely occurred in one manner.  The crossing of two dissimilar species, even insect with fish, plant with an animal, etc., has not occurred until relatively recently.

also trying to point out that just because we do not like a thing, we can not blame the thing for all that goes wrong.  people in poor countries who benefit from our excess food, probably are grateful for our pesticides and "enhanced" crops.

lol!  I would hope people don't base their analysis on "liking" vs. "disliking".   huh 

Quote from: wayne
From what I've seen the last few weeks the problem is just as bad in Britain and Europe. And they don't have migratory Beeks.
  Everyone is trying to blame their favorite Boogyman for this. Too bad there isn't a centralized location to track this. I lean toward the Alien abduction theory myself. It's as good as any.

Do you have any links to the reports in Europe?  (I had not read that yet)

re:"bogeyman", aliens, etc., ~> hey, if that works for you.  I know it's difficult for some not to stray into socio-political topics (i.e. poor country's feelings about pesticides) and armchair psychology (liking, blaming, etc.,) but, personally I figured this was a good thread/locale to advance theories & hopefully have a scientific discussion. 

The author's work which I cited was the only source I've found so far that has indicated a potential link between GMO pollen and bees disappearing.  I definitely hope there is more research conducted on this ASAP.  Again, not a lot of history with pig x corn available, so I would offer that it is quite natural to be concerned and very suspect. 

Cheers,
Dane



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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2007, 10:56:22 PM »

a theory great.  creating demons from a theory?  not so great.  lots of people don't like genetic manipulation of any kind.  because they don't like a thing, and because of a lot of bad sci-fi movies, any kind of genetic manipulation is a boogy man.  unless it's saving your childs life...then i guess it's good.

i'm not knocking your theory.  we wouldn't want to turn a theory into 'fact' without proof?

we have been known to wander into some hot topics here.  that's lots of fun.  don't think most take offense if others don't agree.  i know i don't.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2007, 12:09:51 PM »

a theory great.  creating demons from a theory?  not so great.  lots of people don't like genetic manipulation of any kind.  because they don't like a thing, and because of a lot of bad sci-fi movies, any kind of genetic manipulation is a boogy man.  unless it's saving your childs life...then i guess it's good.

i'm not knocking your theory.  we wouldn't want to turn a theory into 'fact' without proof?

we have been known to wander into some hot topics here.  that's lots of fun.  don't think most take offense if others don't agree.  i know i don't.



No offense taken.   I'm just suggesting you could take your agenda against people who mistake theories for fact, etc., etc., elsewhere and try and stay on topic.
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kathyp
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2007, 12:33:39 PM »

i'll file you away under "twitchy" and "touchy". 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Dane Bramage
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2007, 01:22:24 PM »

i'll file you away under "twitchy" and "touchy". 
Awww, and you must know just how concerned I am with your categorization. Wink 
Quote from: kathyp
lots of people don't like and don't understand GM.  i am in that category.
So you admit you don't understand it, and most people would stop there... yet you go on to offer
Quote from: kathyp
...it is done all the time... genetic modification and has been done from the beginning of breeding animals (and people).
Which is obviously incorrect.  So, you don't understand GM but persist it trying to equate it to selective breeding in addition to blathering on about "feelings" and a whole host of nonsensical issues. 
My previous post was a request...so much for trying to appeal to reason.


Back to topic: Has anyone read any of Dr. Minh-Ha Pham Delegue's relevant works?  Any other studies available on GMO pollen's effects on honeybees?  Is there any mappings of the geographical areas effected by CCD available?  Have none of the missing bees been recovered for analysis yet?



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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2007, 02:17:28 PM »

i humbly bow to your superior knowledge.

breeding for specific genetic traits is not genetic modification in it's most basic sense (that will surprise most breeders), and we should stay on the topic as you have defined it.

thank you for taking the time to instruct me.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2007, 05:33:34 PM »

Uh Dane:

Welcome to the forum, please add your location to your profile to help us know what climate conditions, etc. you deal with. Being "hopelessly Lost" as it says is simply fixed in the profile section on the interface bar above posts.

Glad for a relatively new beekeeper you are reading up on CCD and other issues, a little diplomacy may go a long way with that knowledge you have, please don't fall into that rare category of obsessive "quoters" who use people's own words against them - I know KathyP needs no help from anyone, she is extremely capable of managing issues with no help from others, but don't let your passion on issues bleed over into a peeing contest.

Again, welcome and enjoy the forums - I'm sure there is much more you can learn than you may think, books and the Internet is fine - but the practical experience of seasoned beekeepers will make you a greater beekeeper than any book.
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Dane Bramage
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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2007, 06:36:58 PM »



(Uh?) thanks for the welcome beemaster,

I'm in Portland, Oregon. (Profile updated)

I'm worse than relatively new!  I haven't even begun yet (my queen and starter colony are due 4/10).  And I'm definitely with you on forums being the place to glean cutting-edge, as well as fundamental, information.  Congrats on the excellent site!  I've been working in IT for ~ 15 yrs, have set up many forums, and belong to loads more.  That's precisely why I joined.

Also, regarding "issues", quoting, etc.,. I would hope we're all on the same team regarding this CCD topic as well as any other that may threaten our respective hobby, livelihood, etc.,.  That being said, being involved in internet forums all these years I've interacted with all types of personality "issues".  I would hope kathyp could handle her own... I'm not averse to calling a spade a spade however and if that involves pointing out errors, logical fallacies, misdirection, etc., (in what I thought was a polite manner) I would hope that isn't considered less than diplomatic.  I could very well be the dumbest guy on this site, it makes no difference as I'm not hung up on personal issues (this seems to be a theme?).  Rather, trying to stay on topic and further the investigation along.  Who knows... if we pool our resources perhaps we could have a positive impact?  That's my goal here at any rate.  & don't worry, I won't respond further to any snarky comments.

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2007, 12:39:40 AM »

Perhaps this better explains it;

http://www.purefood.org/ge/hansenGEexpl.cfm

Here is a snippet from the article;

"After all, with GE, one can mix genes not only from widely different plant families, one can put genes
from any organism on earth, or can create genes which have not existed before and put them, into plants."
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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2007, 10:56:54 AM »

when we talk about genetic manipulation, genetic modification, and genetic engineering, are we talking about the same thing?  the same technology may be involved. 

if you, for instance, take the best traits of several different types of corn, and create a corn that is more disease resistant and has a shorter growing season, would that be the same as taking the genes from a tomato plant and mixing them with corn to make totally new kind of veggie?

if you have a child that is ill because of a defect on one gene and you can cure the child by inserting a healthy gene, that's not the same as taking genes from many different sources and creating the "perfect" child?

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=444436&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=

did you catch this?  the cannibal thing is not so far off!  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2007, 12:17:28 PM »

Did you read all that link I gave? I do think the GMO is the same as GE.

I had not read that but I had read something several years ago that got me to thinking about the cannibal thing. The problem with a lot of things is people still think of it as far out Sci-Fi stuff when it is actually taking place right now. Then some of this stuff, like a bad sci-fi movie, gets turned loose before all there is to know about it is known.

I can't help thinking about the malaria resistant mosquito they are trying to perfect. It out performs and out produces the malaria prone mosquitoes. Great, we get rid of Malaria. But what if they also spread the west nile virus at an accelerated rate with greater efficiency? 

I can find the article if you haven't seen it.   
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2007, 01:06:27 PM »

i saw the thing about the mosquito, what tha hell? looks like "scientist" are dumber than we think. this really is playing god and the problem is...god didn't make things perfect, he just made them reasonable or in-balance if you will, but perfecting something is just being stupid, you know what happens if you enforce a foreign species?

GMOs are GE whilst GE isn't GMOs, but this doesn't make any sense embarassed
what i really wanted to say that GE is the general word for GModifications and GManipulation surelly these words mean different things and as such should be treated seperately. i think Gmanipulation is ok, while modification is playing god, in general GE is ok it has been practiced for millenias, before humanity evolved.

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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2007, 03:42:50 PM »

I think there is still some confusion over terminology. 

Quote
Genetic engineering, genetic modification (GM) and gene splicing are terms for the process of manipulating genes, generally implying that the process is outside the organism's natural reproductive process. It involves the isolation, manipulation and reintroduction of DNA into cells or model organisms, usually to express a protein.

I would reiterate that the above method of genetic manipulation should in no way be confused with the natural reproductive process or selective breeding via same.  For more on selective breeding/hybridisng a good study would be Mendelian genetics:

Quote
Mendelian inheritance (or Mendelian genetics or Mendelism) is a set of primary tenets relating to the transmission of hereditary characteristics from parent organisms to their children; it underlies much of genetics. They were initially derived from the work of Gregor Mendel published in 1865 and 1866 which was "re-discovered" in 1900, and were initially very controversial. When they were integrated with the chromosome theory of inheritance by Thomas Hunt Morgan in 1915, they became the core of classical genetics.

GMOs are brand new, never existed before in all of history, could never (0.0% probability) have occurred naturally creations.  Take that for whatever it is worth.  There have been problems already.  One example:
Quote
A worrisome element of xenotransplantation is the potential for infectious disease to spread from the donor animal, which is called xenozoonosis. One example is porcine endogenous retroviruses (PERVs) which are viruses within pigs that pigs are immune to, but can infect humans. Some recipients of pig neural cell transplants have had to agree to never donate blood, take frequent blood tests and use safe sex methods for the rest of their lives due to the risk of spreading such viruses. However, the patients who have received these pig cell transplants have yet to show any PERV-type infection. The situation with other animals is currently unknown.

At any rate, the relevance of the above is just to show the potential for this to be a culprit/contributing factor in CCD.  The only study I found (quoted in my first post) stated:
Quote
She has studied the effects of GM pollen from varieties of canola and soybeans on honeybees in a laboratory setting. Her findings indicate that none of the tested pollens kill adult bees outright, but that they may shorten their lifespan and cause some behavioral changes, particularly in a loss of their ability to learn and to smell. This may cause foraging bees to "forget" where flowers or even their own hive is located. (emphasis added)

Again, GMOs may/may-not be a cause or even contributing factor... but that study seems to fit the scenario. Sad
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