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Author Topic: A Theory  (Read 8406 times)
MrILoveTheAnts
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« on: March 03, 2007, 04:18:01 PM »

A theory I had on the subject was that it's similar to Mad Cow Disease.

With Mad Cow Disease, cattle farmers started using more bits of the left over cow to be chopped up and fed to other cows. In this case it was the cow's feet. The cow would digest this oddly and tiny shards of bone would be put into the blood stream and block certain receptors in the cow's brain.

With Colony Collapse Disorder the adult bees can't find their way home. Something is screwing around with their internal compus. Specifically something in the fall time. What are beekeepers doing in the fall? Adding and removing strips to combat mites. And I'm assuming newer formulas are more likely to be bought by commercial bee farmers who seem most effected by this.

Thoughts, comments, theories of your own?
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Understudy
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2007, 04:27:44 PM »

Since I have been reading reports on this till I am blue in the face, I can say this. I have no idea as to what is a certain cause of it.

But everyone is entitled to an opinion. Yours is no worse than the others. The problem is the speculation and FUD is running rampant. When the research comes out I will read it.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Mici
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2007, 04:35:39 PM »

it's very hard to point out a certain cause. i mean...it's impossible. ok..if the deal was...every year some...10% of bees were gone this way, we could find out the cause, but like this..all the sudden PLUS all across the US and A ( grin) it's just...confusing. some say that bees are simply exhausted, can't take anymore of our "bleep" got fed up with this poisened life and commited suicides. everything is even scaryer since other predators such as moths hive beetle and stuff won't live in the abandoned hives. i know this sounds familliar and is probably worn out but...we have a big problem!
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MrILoveTheAnts
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2007, 04:54:22 PM »

The lack of parasites is very interesting, I hadn't realized that was the case. I think it supports theory's that say this is a man made problem. Though they are also flying insects, I wonder if this epidemic is more wide spread than it seems. Suppose the bees trust the magnetic currents of the earth and ultraviolet color variations in the sky more than their own geometry (triangulation?).
Since Wax moths are nocturnal flying I wonder if they would also be effected.


As a side note I'm wondering how much a jar of honey will cost when there are no bees.
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Mici
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2007, 05:09:33 PM »

not just honey...honey is the least!!! think of the apples, almonds, ALL of fruits (maybe not all, majority) other plants...they are darn right when they say that with extinction of bees comes the extinction of mankind.

it has to be some kind of new virous or something...it's just not normal that it all started the same year , at least i just won't except that bees of all larger keepers got "worn out" at the same time, it just isn't possible!
maybe these big keepers found some great chemical that helped against varoa and didn't want the majority to find out...but didn't test it enough...JUST on of the many MAYBES
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ayyon2157
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2007, 07:30:16 PM »

My theory:

     Fairly recently genetically modified soybean strains have been introduced which will tolerate heavy spraying with a herbicide which normally kills the plants.  Around here, some soybean plants are heavily sprayed with ROUNDUP ( I believe that is the correct name for the product), and bees visit soybean blossoms.

    I believe that it was common knowledge that exposure to herbicides would sometimes cause loss of the colony over winter.  I seem to remember that the chemical companies were aware of this, but that the government decided that bees were of lesser importance than maximizing crop yields.

     A flaw in my theory might be that the problem may exist where soybeans are not grown.  However, ROUNDUP is now sold in garden supply stores and used almost everywhere for weed control.  (Back when I was farming, ROUNDUP was one of the chemicals which required a license to buy and use)

ayyon2157
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2007, 09:08:34 PM »

Quote
With Mad Cow Disease, cattle farmers started using more bits of the left over cow to be chopped up and fed to other cows. In this case it was the cow's feet. The cow would digest this oddly and tiny shards of bone would be put into the blood stream and block certain receptors in the cow's brain.


BSE (mad cow disease) is a CNS disease.  it is most likely caused by feeding back to cows the body parts (in feed) of other warm blooded animals.  in particular, the brain, spinal cord, and other nerves.  these waste parts used to be ground up into mixed feed that was then fed back to cows as part of their needed protein.

people who eat the infected cattle, especially those who eat brain, etc. may develop  Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.  CJD is hereditary, but VCJD is acquired.  it is a prion disease  not caused by bits of bone in the veins.

as for the bees, it seems to be the commercial pollinators that are having the biggest problem.  so far, the backyard beekeeper is not reporting big loss.  pollinator stress their bees.  stress may cause less disease resistance.  also, in ABJ, there is an article talking about historical reports of this happening before.  this may be an old, cyclical problem, but because of better communication, we are more aware of it.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2007, 01:33:26 AM »

My theory

Alien abduction
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MrILoveTheAnts
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2007, 03:12:50 PM »

kathyp: I brought up mad cow disease to show how something as simple as their diet can mess up the receptors of the brain.
I hope with bees it isn't something they're eating because that might mean the honey from these hives is contaminated, and might be transferable to humans. Which would be kind of odd, nation wide people are having trouble finding the grocery store and refuse to return home.
Something is messing with the receptors in the bee's brain. If stress is messing with their immune system then why isn't the queen effected? I know stress can do this in humans, but stress in bees doesn't seem to explain the lack of parasites in the hives. 
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BeeLady
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2007, 03:58:37 PM »

I would like GMOs and their relation to bees looked into.  I believe research has proved that Monarch butterflies are adversly affected.  GMOs have been growing in use in the US for almost 10 years now, while most other countries, i.e., European countries, do not rely on GMOs and also do not have bee die-off.  Europe also does not use many of the pesticides we use which could also be a factor.

If GMOs are involved, Monsanto will ensure the info is kept quiet which worries me.  I don't think any research community could point in this direction without fear of repercussions from Monsanto.
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Lauren, aka BeeLady
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2007, 04:19:59 PM »

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nation wide people are having trouble finding the grocery store and refuse to return home.

and i thought it was old age!!   grin
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2007, 04:26:52 PM »

whenever science has a chance to do a thing, they will do it.  it is sold to us as a benifit...after all, who would not want genetic modifications if they could stop things like CF, or other nasty diseases?  Who would deny the starving people of 3rd would countries crops that would flourish in their environment?

do we restrict research?  do we live with science and hope for the best?  someone always loses in these decisions.  who will it be and who will decide who it will be?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2007, 04:35:46 PM »

whenever science has a chance to do a thing, they will do it.  it is sold to us as a benifit...after all, who would not want genetic modifications if they could stop things like CF, or other nasty diseases?  Who would deny the starving people of 3rd would countries crops that would flourish in their environment?

do we restrict research?  do we live with science and hope for the best?  someone always loses in these decisions.  who will it be and who will decide who it will be?
The problem with GMOs is they are sterile. So solving world hunger problems is out.
Just because it is sold to us as a benefit doesn't mean it is. BGH may help cows produce more milk but it also has caused more health issues for cows. Monsanto sat on that information. So you don't get CF but you get cancer. Sorry not buying the corporate line that everything they put out is good.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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kathyp
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2007, 05:27:12 PM »

i don't buy it either.....[please note date and time!  we have agreed on something smiley ]  my question is only about who does research and who oversees it?  who decides what is good and what is bad?  who decides when good outweighs bad?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2007, 05:32:39 PM »

i don't buy it either.....[please note date and time!  we have agreed on something smiley ]  my question is only about who does research and who oversees it?  who decides what is good and what is bad?  who decides when good outweighs bad?

Research is suppose to be peer reviewed. Then finally government approved before being released to the public. That stopped when the companies started paying the FDA.

Thus the reason companies like monsanto have gotten away with so much. The reason for the Phen Phen lawsuit and others.

The other problem with the GMOs since they are sterile is the farmer becomes dependant on the corporation.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2007, 07:32:36 PM »

I remember my mentor mentioning a similar problem to CCD that occured in the mid 50's.  It came, was apparent for a few years, then disappeared as mysteriously as it appeared.  I think it had a 3 year impact.  Maybe some research into beekeeping publications from that time period would be benificial in spreading some light on the issue.
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BEE C
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2007, 03:25:43 PM »

I agree GM foods are a HORRIBLE thing.  Too much playing god.  There was a farmer from one of our prairie provinces that was sued by monsanto for having GM crops on his farm.  He was a advocate against them.  The crops in particuar were less than ten percent.  He argued to the supreme court and then the case was suddenly out of the media.  Poor old guy lost the farm I believe.  I wonder how many unknowns there are with these crops and with this corporate behaviour?  GM are supposed to be sterile, but Monsanto charged this man with crossing GM with his heritage strains of wheat.  So obviously not 100% sterile.  Litigated him to death.  Interesting that Europe is not using as much GM crops and there are not as many cases of what is considered CCD there...hadn't read that. 
I have to agree with brian about the cyclical nature of die offs.  Certain plants such as vetch have been attributed to die offs in the 50s here in the prairie provinces.  I wonder about changing weather patterns making plants which have not traditionally had much luck in certain climates, suddenly flourishing?  As well virus/bacteria/fungus strains which lie dormant for LONG periods suddenly flourishing when conditions are ripe.  Would be really interesting to narrow CCD down to one of these factors.  What Ive read so far makes me think its a virus/bacteria/fungus.  I love bread, and wine, but virus/bacteria/fungus have killed more humans in pandemics historically than all wars combined.  I think the more likely culprit.  They say we are LONG overdue for a pandemic.  Our earth is sick, we are part of a closed system.  James lovelock the scientist who coined the term greenhouse effect, without placing blame or cause suggested when the earth is sick it gets a fever.  His theory was that the earth was experiencing that fever (back in the seventies). When the plagues hit we called it curse the curse of god, some areas of europe lost 1/4 of their population.  Personally I think humans are 90% like spoiled children who think they can get out of a spanking and avoid natural consequences.  We, are the problem, not just carbon emmissions but the shear number of us.  Low technology people have decimated natural environments just as well, through over population.  It is typical human egoism that can't see the earth as a living organism, wise and benevolent.  For a long time she has been benevolent, we just keep thinking that she won't take it back someday. 
Ugh...yeah...so...my vote is on CCD being viral/bacterial in nature.... grin
and uh this might be better in the rants and raves section....
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AllanJ
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2007, 09:18:09 PM »

What I found interesting about GM Crops was how the companies starting buying all the major seed companies once they were allowed to patent their GM Seeds.

Anyway, maybe the bees are trying to tell us something. Remember in Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy how to dolphins tried to warn the humans about the impending destruction of the earth?  When they were ignored, they just took off and left us behind.

I am curious why people pick up on the fact that the bees might not be able to 'find' their way back to the hive, more important is why they left in the first place, why would they want to come back anyway?
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kathyp
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2007, 09:47:09 PM »

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We, are the problem, not just carbon emmissions but the shear number of us.  Low technology people have decimated natural environments just as well, through over population.  It is typical human egoism that can't see the earth as a living organism, wise and benevolent. 


well,  population growth is now in the negative in almost all of the world.  i guess the easiest thing to do to reduce the population more, would be to stop trying to save people.  if the earth is trying to tell us something, then we should listen.  no more meds, vaccinations, feeding of the famine stricken, clean water projects, etc.  we should just let nature take its pound of flesh and be done with it.

or, we could recognize (as you did)  that throughout all of history, there have been natural disasters, weather changes, and diseases, that have come about and killed off man and animal.

what is different now?  instant info.  instead of hearing about starvation and plague from traveling traders months and years later, we can know about it instantly and see the pictures.  then we can all sit here on the internet and practice self flagellation and feel better because WE CARE! oh ya....and pull out the credit card and make a donation to our favorite rescue organization....and save more people?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Dane Bramage
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2007, 01:08:27 AM »

Greetings,

I'm getting set up to start my first ever apiary adventure and just registered here today.  I've been following the CCD somewhat closely with obvious concern (the potential impact is clearly severe).

My theory thus far, and I haven't seen this explored much as yet in the media, is the disorder may be attributed to GM pollen.  I can't post any links, apparently (new user restriction) & there are precious few studies published which explore the deleterious effects of GMOs on honeybees.  If you do a search for Minh-Ha Pham Delegue you will find some of her works. 
Quote
She has studied the effects of GM pollen from varieties of canola and soybeans on honeybees in a laboratory setting. Her findings indicate that none of the tested pollens kill adult bees outright, but that they may shorten their lifespan and cause some behavioral changes, particularly in a loss of their ability to learn and to smell. This may cause foraging bees to "forget" where flowers or even their own hive is located.   Obviously, some issues have been raised by this work which need to be further explored. (emphasis added)

It would be interesting to see a map of reported CCD instances over-layed with GMO crops.   I predict there will be a correlation.  This is the Pandora's box.   shocked

May God help us.

Kind regards,
Dane


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