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Author Topic: A Theory  (Read 8245 times)
MrILoveTheAnts
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« on: March 03, 2007, 04:18:01 PM »

A theory I had on the subject was that it's similar to Mad Cow Disease.

With Mad Cow Disease, cattle farmers started using more bits of the left over cow to be chopped up and fed to other cows. In this case it was the cow's feet. The cow would digest this oddly and tiny shards of bone would be put into the blood stream and block certain receptors in the cow's brain.

With Colony Collapse Disorder the adult bees can't find their way home. Something is screwing around with their internal compus. Specifically something in the fall time. What are beekeepers doing in the fall? Adding and removing strips to combat mites. And I'm assuming newer formulas are more likely to be bought by commercial bee farmers who seem most effected by this.

Thoughts, comments, theories of your own?
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2007, 04:27:44 PM »

Since I have been reading reports on this till I am blue in the face, I can say this. I have no idea as to what is a certain cause of it.

But everyone is entitled to an opinion. Yours is no worse than the others. The problem is the speculation and FUD is running rampant. When the research comes out I will read it.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2007, 04:35:39 PM »

it's very hard to point out a certain cause. i mean...it's impossible. ok..if the deal was...every year some...10% of bees were gone this way, we could find out the cause, but like this..all the sudden PLUS all across the US and A ( grin) it's just...confusing. some say that bees are simply exhausted, can't take anymore of our "bleep" got fed up with this poisened life and commited suicides. everything is even scaryer since other predators such as moths hive beetle and stuff won't live in the abandoned hives. i know this sounds familliar and is probably worn out but...we have a big problem!
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MrILoveTheAnts
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2007, 04:54:22 PM »

The lack of parasites is very interesting, I hadn't realized that was the case. I think it supports theory's that say this is a man made problem. Though they are also flying insects, I wonder if this epidemic is more wide spread than it seems. Suppose the bees trust the magnetic currents of the earth and ultraviolet color variations in the sky more than their own geometry (triangulation?).
Since Wax moths are nocturnal flying I wonder if they would also be effected.


As a side note I'm wondering how much a jar of honey will cost when there are no bees.
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2007, 05:09:33 PM »

not just honey...honey is the least!!! think of the apples, almonds, ALL of fruits (maybe not all, majority) other plants...they are darn right when they say that with extinction of bees comes the extinction of mankind.

it has to be some kind of new virous or something...it's just not normal that it all started the same year , at least i just won't except that bees of all larger keepers got "worn out" at the same time, it just isn't possible!
maybe these big keepers found some great chemical that helped against varoa and didn't want the majority to find out...but didn't test it enough...JUST on of the many MAYBES
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2007, 07:30:16 PM »

My theory:

     Fairly recently genetically modified soybean strains have been introduced which will tolerate heavy spraying with a herbicide which normally kills the plants.  Around here, some soybean plants are heavily sprayed with ROUNDUP ( I believe that is the correct name for the product), and bees visit soybean blossoms.

    I believe that it was common knowledge that exposure to herbicides would sometimes cause loss of the colony over winter.  I seem to remember that the chemical companies were aware of this, but that the government decided that bees were of lesser importance than maximizing crop yields.

     A flaw in my theory might be that the problem may exist where soybeans are not grown.  However, ROUNDUP is now sold in garden supply stores and used almost everywhere for weed control.  (Back when I was farming, ROUNDUP was one of the chemicals which required a license to buy and use)

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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2007, 09:08:34 PM »

Quote
With Mad Cow Disease, cattle farmers started using more bits of the left over cow to be chopped up and fed to other cows. In this case it was the cow's feet. The cow would digest this oddly and tiny shards of bone would be put into the blood stream and block certain receptors in the cow's brain.


BSE (mad cow disease) is a CNS disease.  it is most likely caused by feeding back to cows the body parts (in feed) of other warm blooded animals.  in particular, the brain, spinal cord, and other nerves.  these waste parts used to be ground up into mixed feed that was then fed back to cows as part of their needed protein.

people who eat the infected cattle, especially those who eat brain, etc. may develop  Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.  CJD is hereditary, but VCJD is acquired.  it is a prion disease  not caused by bits of bone in the veins.

as for the bees, it seems to be the commercial pollinators that are having the biggest problem.  so far, the backyard beekeeper is not reporting big loss.  pollinator stress their bees.  stress may cause less disease resistance.  also, in ABJ, there is an article talking about historical reports of this happening before.  this may be an old, cyclical problem, but because of better communication, we are more aware of it.
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2007, 01:33:26 AM »

My theory

Alien abduction
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2007, 03:12:50 PM »

kathyp: I brought up mad cow disease to show how something as simple as their diet can mess up the receptors of the brain.
I hope with bees it isn't something they're eating because that might mean the honey from these hives is contaminated, and might be transferable to humans. Which would be kind of odd, nation wide people are having trouble finding the grocery store and refuse to return home.
Something is messing with the receptors in the bee's brain. If stress is messing with their immune system then why isn't the queen effected? I know stress can do this in humans, but stress in bees doesn't seem to explain the lack of parasites in the hives. 
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« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2007, 03:58:37 PM »

I would like GMOs and their relation to bees looked into.  I believe research has proved that Monarch butterflies are adversly affected.  GMOs have been growing in use in the US for almost 10 years now, while most other countries, i.e., European countries, do not rely on GMOs and also do not have bee die-off.  Europe also does not use many of the pesticides we use which could also be a factor.

If GMOs are involved, Monsanto will ensure the info is kept quiet which worries me.  I don't think any research community could point in this direction without fear of repercussions from Monsanto.
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« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2007, 04:19:59 PM »

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nation wide people are having trouble finding the grocery store and refuse to return home.

and i thought it was old age!!   grin
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« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2007, 04:26:52 PM »

whenever science has a chance to do a thing, they will do it.  it is sold to us as a benifit...after all, who would not want genetic modifications if they could stop things like CF, or other nasty diseases?  Who would deny the starving people of 3rd would countries crops that would flourish in their environment?

do we restrict research?  do we live with science and hope for the best?  someone always loses in these decisions.  who will it be and who will decide who it will be?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2007, 04:35:46 PM »

whenever science has a chance to do a thing, they will do it.  it is sold to us as a benifit...after all, who would not want genetic modifications if they could stop things like CF, or other nasty diseases?  Who would deny the starving people of 3rd would countries crops that would flourish in their environment?

do we restrict research?  do we live with science and hope for the best?  someone always loses in these decisions.  who will it be and who will decide who it will be?
The problem with GMOs is they are sterile. So solving world hunger problems is out.
Just because it is sold to us as a benefit doesn't mean it is. BGH may help cows produce more milk but it also has caused more health issues for cows. Monsanto sat on that information. So you don't get CF but you get cancer. Sorry not buying the corporate line that everything they put out is good.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2007, 05:27:12 PM »

i don't buy it either.....[please note date and time!  we have agreed on something smiley ]  my question is only about who does research and who oversees it?  who decides what is good and what is bad?  who decides when good outweighs bad?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2007, 05:32:39 PM »

i don't buy it either.....[please note date and time!  we have agreed on something smiley ]  my question is only about who does research and who oversees it?  who decides what is good and what is bad?  who decides when good outweighs bad?

Research is suppose to be peer reviewed. Then finally government approved before being released to the public. That stopped when the companies started paying the FDA.

Thus the reason companies like monsanto have gotten away with so much. The reason for the Phen Phen lawsuit and others.

The other problem with the GMOs since they are sterile is the farmer becomes dependant on the corporation.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2007, 07:32:36 PM »

I remember my mentor mentioning a similar problem to CCD that occured in the mid 50's.  It came, was apparent for a few years, then disappeared as mysteriously as it appeared.  I think it had a 3 year impact.  Maybe some research into beekeeping publications from that time period would be benificial in spreading some light on the issue.
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« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2007, 03:25:43 PM »

I agree GM foods are a HORRIBLE thing.  Too much playing god.  There was a farmer from one of our prairie provinces that was sued by monsanto for having GM crops on his farm.  He was a advocate against them.  The crops in particuar were less than ten percent.  He argued to the supreme court and then the case was suddenly out of the media.  Poor old guy lost the farm I believe.  I wonder how many unknowns there are with these crops and with this corporate behaviour?  GM are supposed to be sterile, but Monsanto charged this man with crossing GM with his heritage strains of wheat.  So obviously not 100% sterile.  Litigated him to death.  Interesting that Europe is not using as much GM crops and there are not as many cases of what is considered CCD there...hadn't read that. 
I have to agree with brian about the cyclical nature of die offs.  Certain plants such as vetch have been attributed to die offs in the 50s here in the prairie provinces.  I wonder about changing weather patterns making plants which have not traditionally had much luck in certain climates, suddenly flourishing?  As well virus/bacteria/fungus strains which lie dormant for LONG periods suddenly flourishing when conditions are ripe.  Would be really interesting to narrow CCD down to one of these factors.  What Ive read so far makes me think its a virus/bacteria/fungus.  I love bread, and wine, but virus/bacteria/fungus have killed more humans in pandemics historically than all wars combined.  I think the more likely culprit.  They say we are LONG overdue for a pandemic.  Our earth is sick, we are part of a closed system.  James lovelock the scientist who coined the term greenhouse effect, without placing blame or cause suggested when the earth is sick it gets a fever.  His theory was that the earth was experiencing that fever (back in the seventies). When the plagues hit we called it curse the curse of god, some areas of europe lost 1/4 of their population.  Personally I think humans are 90% like spoiled children who think they can get out of a spanking and avoid natural consequences.  We, are the problem, not just carbon emmissions but the shear number of us.  Low technology people have decimated natural environments just as well, through over population.  It is typical human egoism that can't see the earth as a living organism, wise and benevolent.  For a long time she has been benevolent, we just keep thinking that she won't take it back someday. 
Ugh...yeah...so...my vote is on CCD being viral/bacterial in nature.... grin
and uh this might be better in the rants and raves section....
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« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2007, 09:18:09 PM »

What I found interesting about GM Crops was how the companies starting buying all the major seed companies once they were allowed to patent their GM Seeds.

Anyway, maybe the bees are trying to tell us something. Remember in Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy how to dolphins tried to warn the humans about the impending destruction of the earth?  When they were ignored, they just took off and left us behind.

I am curious why people pick up on the fact that the bees might not be able to 'find' their way back to the hive, more important is why they left in the first place, why would they want to come back anyway?
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« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2007, 09:47:09 PM »

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We, are the problem, not just carbon emmissions but the shear number of us.  Low technology people have decimated natural environments just as well, through over population.  It is typical human egoism that can't see the earth as a living organism, wise and benevolent. 


well,  population growth is now in the negative in almost all of the world.  i guess the easiest thing to do to reduce the population more, would be to stop trying to save people.  if the earth is trying to tell us something, then we should listen.  no more meds, vaccinations, feeding of the famine stricken, clean water projects, etc.  we should just let nature take its pound of flesh and be done with it.

or, we could recognize (as you did)  that throughout all of history, there have been natural disasters, weather changes, and diseases, that have come about and killed off man and animal.

what is different now?  instant info.  instead of hearing about starvation and plague from traveling traders months and years later, we can know about it instantly and see the pictures.  then we can all sit here on the internet and practice self flagellation and feel better because WE CARE! oh ya....and pull out the credit card and make a donation to our favorite rescue organization....and save more people?
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 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2007, 01:08:27 AM »

Greetings,

I'm getting set up to start my first ever apiary adventure and just registered here today.  I've been following the CCD somewhat closely with obvious concern (the potential impact is clearly severe).

My theory thus far, and I haven't seen this explored much as yet in the media, is the disorder may be attributed to GM pollen.  I can't post any links, apparently (new user restriction) & there are precious few studies published which explore the deleterious effects of GMOs on honeybees.  If you do a search for Minh-Ha Pham Delegue you will find some of her works. 
Quote
She has studied the effects of GM pollen from varieties of canola and soybeans on honeybees in a laboratory setting. Her findings indicate that none of the tested pollens kill adult bees outright, but that they may shorten their lifespan and cause some behavioral changes, particularly in a loss of their ability to learn and to smell. This may cause foraging bees to "forget" where flowers or even their own hive is located.   Obviously, some issues have been raised by this work which need to be further explored. (emphasis added)

It would be interesting to see a map of reported CCD instances over-layed with GMO crops.   I predict there will be a correlation.  This is the Pandora's box.   shocked

May God help us.

Kind regards,
Dane


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« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2007, 09:46:18 AM »

In our BeeScene magazine, our Provincial Apiculturist mentioned that there is some speculation about the CCD may have to do with pesticide and HFCS (high fructose corn syrup).

I remember reading in books that HFCS is not a desirable food for bees but it appears that many many use it for bee feed.  Personally, I use white sugar only (mixed with water of course).   My 2 cents.  Have an awesome and wonderful day, Cindi.
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« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2007, 12:18:11 PM »

the whole GM theory is great, but were any of the bees that have been lost, exposed to GM crops?  i have yet to hear anyone make the connection.

we are not losing our backyard bees to CCD.  this kind of thing has happened before...long before GM crops. 

while the idea of genetically modifying anything does not thrill me, it is done all the time in more than just your food.  in truth, how we choose to breed or bees, horses, dogs, etc. is genetic modification and has been done from the beginning of breeding animals (and people).

lots of people don't like and don't understand GM.  i am in that category.  i only understand the potential benefits, but don't know if they outweigh the risk.  i do understand that it is dangerous to try to fit the (perceive) villain to the crime.

my votes are

1.  this is some kind of reoccurring 'thing' that they get which compromises their immune system.  we know that similar things have happened before.

2.  some kind of new pesticide or even pest is getting to them.  if not a pesticide, a new bug that the mite are passing along?

3.  every 50 years of so, there is a big bee conference somewhere and they all fly off to it.  it's a chance to keep in touch with the relatives, talk about the weather....all that stuff.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2007, 03:35:04 PM »

GMOs as I understand it can include taking DNA material from one species and placing it into another. Can you imagine some human genes in your watermelon? Would that make us cannibals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_organism
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« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2007, 04:04:06 PM »

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Would that make us cannibals?


now there is a thought smiley

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2007, 06:54:49 PM »

Quote from: kathyp
while the idea of genetically modifying anything does not thrill me, it is done all the time in more than just your food.  in truth, how we choose to breed or bees, horses, dogs, etc. is genetic modification and has been done from the beginning of breeding animals (and people).

You're attempting to equate hybridising; a natural breeding selection method, with genetic engineering.   rolleyes

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« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2007, 07:32:22 PM »

  From what I've seen the last few weeks the problem is just as bad in Britain and Europe. And they don't have migratory Beeks.
  Everyone is trying to blame their favorite Boogyman for this. Too bad there isn't a centralized location to track this. I lean toward the Alien abduction theory myself. It's as good as any.
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« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2007, 08:29:20 PM »

Quote
You're attempting to equate hybridising; a natural breeding selection method, with genetic engineering.

simply pointing out that both man and nature change genetic makeup of things from time to time.  sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

also trying to point out that just because we do not like a thing, we can not blame the thing for all that goes wrong.  people in poor countries who benefit from our excess food, probably are grateful for our pesticides and "enhanced" crops.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2007, 09:50:23 PM »

simply pointing out that both man and nature change genetic makeup of things from time to time.  sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.
There is a (subtle?) difference between those two methods.  Selective breeding (either natural or man-controlled) may have desirable or undesirable results (subjective) but has, since the dawn of life, likely occurred in one manner.  The crossing of two dissimilar species, even insect with fish, plant with an animal, etc., has not occurred until relatively recently.

also trying to point out that just because we do not like a thing, we can not blame the thing for all that goes wrong.  people in poor countries who benefit from our excess food, probably are grateful for our pesticides and "enhanced" crops.

lol!  I would hope people don't base their analysis on "liking" vs. "disliking".   huh 

Quote from: wayne
From what I've seen the last few weeks the problem is just as bad in Britain and Europe. And they don't have migratory Beeks.
  Everyone is trying to blame their favorite Boogyman for this. Too bad there isn't a centralized location to track this. I lean toward the Alien abduction theory myself. It's as good as any.

Do you have any links to the reports in Europe?  (I had not read that yet)

re:"bogeyman", aliens, etc., ~> hey, if that works for you.  I know it's difficult for some not to stray into socio-political topics (i.e. poor country's feelings about pesticides) and armchair psychology (liking, blaming, etc.,) but, personally I figured this was a good thread/locale to advance theories & hopefully have a scientific discussion. 

The author's work which I cited was the only source I've found so far that has indicated a potential link between GMO pollen and bees disappearing.  I definitely hope there is more research conducted on this ASAP.  Again, not a lot of history with pig x corn available, so I would offer that it is quite natural to be concerned and very suspect. 

Cheers,
Dane



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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2007, 10:56:22 PM »

a theory great.  creating demons from a theory?  not so great.  lots of people don't like genetic manipulation of any kind.  because they don't like a thing, and because of a lot of bad sci-fi movies, any kind of genetic manipulation is a boogy man.  unless it's saving your childs life...then i guess it's good.

i'm not knocking your theory.  we wouldn't want to turn a theory into 'fact' without proof?

we have been known to wander into some hot topics here.  that's lots of fun.  don't think most take offense if others don't agree.  i know i don't.

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« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2007, 12:09:51 PM »

a theory great.  creating demons from a theory?  not so great.  lots of people don't like genetic manipulation of any kind.  because they don't like a thing, and because of a lot of bad sci-fi movies, any kind of genetic manipulation is a boogy man.  unless it's saving your childs life...then i guess it's good.

i'm not knocking your theory.  we wouldn't want to turn a theory into 'fact' without proof?

we have been known to wander into some hot topics here.  that's lots of fun.  don't think most take offense if others don't agree.  i know i don't.



No offense taken.   I'm just suggesting you could take your agenda against people who mistake theories for fact, etc., etc., elsewhere and try and stay on topic.
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« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2007, 12:33:39 PM »

i'll file you away under "twitchy" and "touchy". 
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« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2007, 01:22:24 PM »

i'll file you away under "twitchy" and "touchy". 
Awww, and you must know just how concerned I am with your categorization. Wink 
Quote from: kathyp
lots of people don't like and don't understand GM.  i am in that category.
So you admit you don't understand it, and most people would stop there... yet you go on to offer
Quote from: kathyp
...it is done all the time... genetic modification and has been done from the beginning of breeding animals (and people).
Which is obviously incorrect.  So, you don't understand GM but persist it trying to equate it to selective breeding in addition to blathering on about "feelings" and a whole host of nonsensical issues. 
My previous post was a request...so much for trying to appeal to reason.


Back to topic: Has anyone read any of Dr. Minh-Ha Pham Delegue's relevant works?  Any other studies available on GMO pollen's effects on honeybees?  Is there any mappings of the geographical areas effected by CCD available?  Have none of the missing bees been recovered for analysis yet?



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« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2007, 02:17:28 PM »

i humbly bow to your superior knowledge.

breeding for specific genetic traits is not genetic modification in it's most basic sense (that will surprise most breeders), and we should stay on the topic as you have defined it.

thank you for taking the time to instruct me.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2007, 05:33:34 PM »

Uh Dane:

Welcome to the forum, please add your location to your profile to help us know what climate conditions, etc. you deal with. Being "hopelessly Lost" as it says is simply fixed in the profile section on the interface bar above posts.

Glad for a relatively new beekeeper you are reading up on CCD and other issues, a little diplomacy may go a long way with that knowledge you have, please don't fall into that rare category of obsessive "quoters" who use people's own words against them - I know KathyP needs no help from anyone, she is extremely capable of managing issues with no help from others, but don't let your passion on issues bleed over into a peeing contest.

Again, welcome and enjoy the forums - I'm sure there is much more you can learn than you may think, books and the Internet is fine - but the practical experience of seasoned beekeepers will make you a greater beekeeper than any book.
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« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2007, 06:36:58 PM »



(Uh?) thanks for the welcome beemaster,

I'm in Portland, Oregon. (Profile updated)

I'm worse than relatively new!  I haven't even begun yet (my queen and starter colony are due 4/10).  And I'm definitely with you on forums being the place to glean cutting-edge, as well as fundamental, information.  Congrats on the excellent site!  I've been working in IT for ~ 15 yrs, have set up many forums, and belong to loads more.  That's precisely why I joined.

Also, regarding "issues", quoting, etc.,. I would hope we're all on the same team regarding this CCD topic as well as any other that may threaten our respective hobby, livelihood, etc.,.  That being said, being involved in internet forums all these years I've interacted with all types of personality "issues".  I would hope kathyp could handle her own... I'm not averse to calling a spade a spade however and if that involves pointing out errors, logical fallacies, misdirection, etc., (in what I thought was a polite manner) I would hope that isn't considered less than diplomatic.  I could very well be the dumbest guy on this site, it makes no difference as I'm not hung up on personal issues (this seems to be a theme?).  Rather, trying to stay on topic and further the investigation along.  Who knows... if we pool our resources perhaps we could have a positive impact?  That's my goal here at any rate.  & don't worry, I won't respond further to any snarky comments.

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« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2007, 12:39:40 AM »

Perhaps this better explains it;

http://www.purefood.org/ge/hansenGEexpl.cfm

Here is a snippet from the article;

"After all, with GE, one can mix genes not only from widely different plant families, one can put genes
from any organism on earth, or can create genes which have not existed before and put them, into plants."
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« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2007, 10:56:54 AM »

when we talk about genetic manipulation, genetic modification, and genetic engineering, are we talking about the same thing?  the same technology may be involved. 

if you, for instance, take the best traits of several different types of corn, and create a corn that is more disease resistant and has a shorter growing season, would that be the same as taking the genes from a tomato plant and mixing them with corn to make totally new kind of veggie?

if you have a child that is ill because of a defect on one gene and you can cure the child by inserting a healthy gene, that's not the same as taking genes from many different sources and creating the "perfect" child?

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=444436&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=

did you catch this?  the cannibal thing is not so far off!  smiley
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« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2007, 12:17:28 PM »

Did you read all that link I gave? I do think the GMO is the same as GE.

I had not read that but I had read something several years ago that got me to thinking about the cannibal thing. The problem with a lot of things is people still think of it as far out Sci-Fi stuff when it is actually taking place right now. Then some of this stuff, like a bad sci-fi movie, gets turned loose before all there is to know about it is known.

I can't help thinking about the malaria resistant mosquito they are trying to perfect. It out performs and out produces the malaria prone mosquitoes. Great, we get rid of Malaria. But what if they also spread the west nile virus at an accelerated rate with greater efficiency? 

I can find the article if you haven't seen it.   
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2007, 01:06:27 PM »

i saw the thing about the mosquito, what tha hell? looks like "scientist" are dumber than we think. this really is playing god and the problem is...god didn't make things perfect, he just made them reasonable or in-balance if you will, but perfecting something is just being stupid, you know what happens if you enforce a foreign species?

GMOs are GE whilst GE isn't GMOs, but this doesn't make any sense embarassed
what i really wanted to say that GE is the general word for GModifications and GManipulation surelly these words mean different things and as such should be treated seperately. i think Gmanipulation is ok, while modification is playing god, in general GE is ok it has been practiced for millenias, before humanity evolved.

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« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2007, 03:42:50 PM »

I think there is still some confusion over terminology. 

Quote
Genetic engineering, genetic modification (GM) and gene splicing are terms for the process of manipulating genes, generally implying that the process is outside the organism's natural reproductive process. It involves the isolation, manipulation and reintroduction of DNA into cells or model organisms, usually to express a protein.

I would reiterate that the above method of genetic manipulation should in no way be confused with the natural reproductive process or selective breeding via same.  For more on selective breeding/hybridisng a good study would be Mendelian genetics:

Quote
Mendelian inheritance (or Mendelian genetics or Mendelism) is a set of primary tenets relating to the transmission of hereditary characteristics from parent organisms to their children; it underlies much of genetics. They were initially derived from the work of Gregor Mendel published in 1865 and 1866 which was "re-discovered" in 1900, and were initially very controversial. When they were integrated with the chromosome theory of inheritance by Thomas Hunt Morgan in 1915, they became the core of classical genetics.

GMOs are brand new, never existed before in all of history, could never (0.0% probability) have occurred naturally creations.  Take that for whatever it is worth.  There have been problems already.  One example:
Quote
A worrisome element of xenotransplantation is the potential for infectious disease to spread from the donor animal, which is called xenozoonosis. One example is porcine endogenous retroviruses (PERVs) which are viruses within pigs that pigs are immune to, but can infect humans. Some recipients of pig neural cell transplants have had to agree to never donate blood, take frequent blood tests and use safe sex methods for the rest of their lives due to the risk of spreading such viruses. However, the patients who have received these pig cell transplants have yet to show any PERV-type infection. The situation with other animals is currently unknown.

At any rate, the relevance of the above is just to show the potential for this to be a culprit/contributing factor in CCD.  The only study I found (quoted in my first post) stated:
Quote
She has studied the effects of GM pollen from varieties of canola and soybeans on honeybees in a laboratory setting. Her findings indicate that none of the tested pollens kill adult bees outright, but that they may shorten their lifespan and cause some behavioral changes, particularly in a loss of their ability to learn and to smell. This may cause foraging bees to "forget" where flowers or even their own hive is located. (emphasis added)

Again, GMOs may/may-not be a cause or even contributing factor... but that study seems to fit the scenario. Sad
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« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2007, 08:37:04 PM »

  Here's an article on CCD in Europe and the UK.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/02/colony_collapse_disorder/



Honeybees dropping like flies
By Lester Haines
Published Friday 2nd March 2007 09:55 GMT
British beekeepers are viewing the forthcoming opening of their hives with a certain amount of anxiety; unsure if their colonies have survived the winter.

The cause of their concern is a mystery ailment which has wiped out "thousands" of honeybee colonies across the northern hemisphere. Beekeepers across 24 US states are already reporting "heavy losses" to "Colony Collapse Disorder", which has in recent years hit hard in Greece, Italy, Poland, Portugal, and Spain.
 
No one knows the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder, which has been attributed to various possible causes. Dr Max Watkins, technical director of honeybee health specialist Vita, explained: "The situation is very serious, but no one yet understands the cause of these widespread honeybee colony deaths. Alleged causes range from harmful pesticides and increased solar radiation through ozone thinning, to falling queen fertility and use of unauthorised bee treatments.

"We really don't know the answer - several causes may be at work and the only common factor known so far is that many honeybee colonies are dying. The phenomenon is alarming especially because agricultural pollination and therefore crop production levels are threatened."

Symptoms of Colony Collapse Disorder are normally evident between late summer and early spring. In the US, colonies have been hit as older bees pop their clogs, "leaving behind the queen and young workers not yet ready to forage for pollen and nectar and insufficient in number to maintain the colony", as Vita explains.

In the UK, meanwhile, there have been "a few but significant examples" of what experts call the "Marie Celeste phenomenon" - colonies abandoning hives altogether leaving no evidence of what caused their disappearance.

Watkins continued: "It's a real mystery. We need beekeepers to report their losses and examine and analyse their colonies thoroughly. In the USA it has been difficult to obtain adequate samples and sufficient detailed reports. From records that are available, however, it is noticeable that many beekeepers have been using unauthorised treatments for varroa mites, a honeybee parasite. I'm sure that this is not the complete explanation, but it may be a significant contributory factor."

Whatever the cause of Colony Collapse Disorder, European honeybees face a concrete threat from hordes of killer Asian Hornets (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/21/killer_hornets/), which can wipe out a nest of 30,000 bees "in a couple of hours" in search of larvae on which to feed their young.

The forests of Aquitaine, in south-west France, already boast swarms of the insect assassins which have "spread like lightning" across France and will inevitably, experts say, find their way to the UK at some point. ®

Related stories
Hornet death squads menace France (21 February 2007)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/21/killer_hornets/
US unleashes bomb-sniffing bees (28 November 2006)
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/11/28/terror_busting_bees/
© Copyright 2007
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« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2007, 02:56:46 PM »

Could the Bees have become dependent on a drug we've been giving them? And then when the fall hit or something we stopped feeding them this drug. As if the workers were pollinating heroin or something like that.
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« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2007, 10:13:24 AM »

MrILovetheAnts.  Now your theory, that is something else.  AND, who ever knows eh?  Anything is possible in this mysterious world of ours.  Best of a great day.  Cindi
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