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Author Topic: Overwintered Nuc doing well  (Read 4064 times)
newbee101
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« on: February 21, 2007, 08:34:16 PM »

My first time overwintering nucs has so far worked. I know its early still but they have lots of food and seem to be thriving. It was 50 degrees today, all hives flying. I left work early, just to check them out.

My Italians..

Minnesota Hygenic, mated locally

Last Russian hive
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Apis629
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2007, 09:18:45 PM »

Looks like your hives are comming through the winter just fine.  Nice photos and, well done.
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newbee101
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2007, 09:32:11 PM »

Thanks Apis!

I used no Apistan.I used no ChekMite. I used no Oxalic Acid. I used no Food Grade Mineral oil. I used no Antibiotics. I used no Smoker. (Because I am lazy, and it never stays lit anyhow)
I did use screened bottom boards, drone comb removal and 1 powered sugar dusting.
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« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2007, 09:49:41 PM »

Keep going dude
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« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2007, 11:41:52 PM »

newbie101.  Sounds like things are just rock and rollin'.  Excellent.  Keep on keepin' on.  Best of days.  Cindi
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2007, 12:06:45 AM »

Thanks Apis!

I used no Apistan.I used no ChekMite. I used no Oxalic Acid. I used no Food Grade Mineral oil. I used no Antibiotics. I used no Smoker. (Because I am lazy, and it never stays lit anyhow)
I did use screened bottom boards, drone comb removal and 1 powered sugar dusting.

Sounds bad.............
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newbee101
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2007, 05:27:44 AM »

Thanks everyone, except Finsky. He is always so encouraging.  evil
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Finsky
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2007, 05:38:15 AM »

Thanks everyone, except Finsky. He is always so encouraging.  evil

Only cat lives with thanks. .. If you say that you have not handled your mites, it sounds bad. You need not to be broud of that. 
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newbee101
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2007, 05:53:38 AM »

My mite counts were reasonble going into the winter. 2 of these hives are in their 3rd year with no chemical treatments.
Quote
If you say that you have not handled your mites,You need not to be broud of that.
Well Finsky, I am.
The first year I used Apistan. The hive died.
The second year I used Oxalic Acid vapor on one hive. It died. The other 2 survived.
Last year I used no chemicals, I lost 1 nuc and 1 weak Russian hive out of 10 in my home yard.
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Finsky
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 06:26:16 AM »

My mite counts were reasonble going into the winter. 2 of these hives are in their 3rd year with no chemical treatments.
Quote
If you say that you have not handled your mites,You need not to be broud of that.
Well Finsky, I am.
The first year I used Apistan. The hive died.
The second year I used Oxalic Acid vapor on one hive. It died. The other 2 survived.
Last year I used no chemicals, I lost 1 nuc and 1 weak Russian hive out of 10 in my home yard.

That is really really bad...........

5 winter ago I lost about half of my hives when my mite population had developed apistan resistant. I have had mites 20 years. I do not under estimate them. But when you handle them. tere is nothing to worry about.

I may say that postive thinking is the worst enemy in beekeeping. Nothing goes with hope.




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Michael Bush
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2007, 06:51:31 AM »

That nuc looks stronger than my hives. Smiley  But then mine tend to winter on a pretty small cluster.

What Finsky is trying to tell you is that without doing SOMETHING the bees always succumb to the Varroa eventually.  In my experience natural cell size is enough to handle the Varroa, but "nothing" is not.
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2007, 11:23:50 AM »

Newbee,

Your bees certainly appear to be doing well. Maybe you just got lucky for a season.

Last year I used no treatments of any kind, only management technique (slatted racks, Top entrances, plenty of ventilation). I did sugar treatments in Nov (rolls, shakes) and found no mites. Literally none. Total counts of fall in the summer had been minimal.

I have no illusions about the future or the tenacity of this pest and will treat if it ever becomes necessary (maybe api-guard) but for now my only intention is to shift slowly to small cell.

The surrounding operations here are plagued with severe varroa problems. Lots of dead hives this year.
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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2007, 11:46:25 AM »

.
Truly those hives are minimum size to overwinter. Very good is that there are no sings about nosema. It is quite easy to loose that size colonies.

Why 4 hives are that size, Newbee would tell, because very important is to get hives' brood area maximum size before autumn. The winterball will same size as brood area in fall. You you try for example to owrwinter with honey, it stucks the hive very quickly and bees have no room to raise bigger colony.

It is very difficult to speed up that size colonies. It must have it's time.  When they occupy whole box after that build up is easy.



 

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newbee101
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2007, 07:08:40 PM »

Quote
It is very difficult to speed up that size colonies. It must have it's time.
We have 10 weeks or more before a flow. The Minnesota Hygenic bees built up so well last year, I lost 2 huge swarms. I am going to 3 Deeps on a few hives this year, give them more room.
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2007, 08:23:41 PM »

Have you looked at Api Life-Var  http://www.beeequipment.com/products.asp?pcode=788
The Varroa will win without a sound integrated pest control strategy. I am glad things look good for you at this juncture.
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Finsky
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2007, 08:35:03 PM »

, I lost 2 huge swarms. I am going to 3 Deeps on a few hives this year, give them more room.


That explains  much. 10 weeks is really good time to develeope. I woud help much if boxes are insulated. You may make an experiment. Put two smallest to the styrofoam hives and compare build up. It is easy to construct from styrofoam construction board with polyuretane clue. Afterwards you may use them for nucs.

Here is construction of self made styrofoam http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/IMG_0223_001.jpg
As you see, bees are able to bite construction board.

I made 20 nuc for mating so that I sawed byed styrobox with circle saw and I clued styro boad to place of missing wall.

Here is self made styrofoam langstroth box.  http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/IMG_0223_001.jpg
Not mine.
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newbee101
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2007, 08:42:38 PM »

Quote
That nuc looks stronger than my hives.
That, made my day!
Quote
What Finsky is trying to tell you is that without doing SOMETHING the bees always succumb to the Varroa eventually.
Isn't a screen bottom board,drone comb removal and powdered sugar, doing something?
Quote
Have you looked at Api Life-Var  
Yes, if I think I need it, I might go that route.
Quote
Truly those hives are minimum size to overwinter.
I am at the end of the winter, 27 days until spring. Lets see what they look like in May, eh Finsky?
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newbee101
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2007, 08:47:45 PM »

Quote
Put two smallest to the styrofoam hives and compare build up.

I am ordering 2 as a matter of fact. I want to compare to wood hives like you said.
http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=240
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Finsky
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2007, 08:59:17 PM »


I am ordering 2 as a matter of fact. I want to compare to wood hives like you said.
http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=240


That is good. You will se a miracle. On another hand the biggest hive should get the best advantage from warm hive and then give emerging bees to weak one. So you get your hives faster to rise up.
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2007, 09:09:38 PM »

Quote
Isn't a screen bottom board,drone comb removal and powdered sugar, doing something?

you are going to find that many tell you not to use meds to treat bees.  for some that seems to work.  for many more, hives are lost.  there are treatments that are not "poisons", but are effective.

the SSB and the PS are to diminish mite load.  research on drone comb removal does not support it as a treatment.  it may help. no treatment will kill 100% of mites, but 70 + percent kill is not to bad.

i understand not wanting to poison bees/honey/wax, but i also think that managing mite load only to the extent that your hive does not die, is a bad practice.....it is also not helpful to those around you trying to maintain halt hives.

my 2 cents worth  Wink
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2007, 09:22:38 PM »


I have used apistan strip in 3-frame mating nucs. I have found that it spoils the new queens. Queen get too much poison.Same happens when I put in queen cage a piece of strip.
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2007, 10:58:06 PM »

i used the Apiguard.  didn't seem to bother the bees at all.  i have nothing to compare it to, but i am hearing good things from others who used it late summer and were happy.  in fact, i have not heard anything bad about it yet.......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2007, 10:58:22 PM »


Quote
What Finsky is trying to tell you is that without doing SOMETHING the bees always succumb to the Varroa eventually.
Isn't a screen bottom board,drone comb removal and powdered sugar, doing something?

I dont believe that "without doing SOMETHING the bees always succumb to the Varroa eventually" , I know of about 8 hives that are 7-14 years old on regular comb that is still going, shoot I have a couple of them!!!! I am a firm believer that there is a mite resistance in certain bee's without any kind of help from us. UGA is now studying with SC, but have been working on raising resistant bee's (that are on regular cell) and are getting real good results, and these bee's were Italian bee's donated to them, I am going to try some SC this year (full sheets), I used 1 inch SC starter strips last year and got some pretty small cells about 1 inch Wink were the strip was, the rest were all different sizes (5.0-5.25) but none bigger that 5.25 but all my bee's were on 5.2-5.25 pierco before I installed the strips.... we will see, I want to see how they do drawing it out, did good on the 1 inch pieces.......
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« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2007, 11:17:44 PM »

Apistan.  That has the active ingredient fluvalinate.  Is fluvalinate similar to coumaphos? (check-mite)?  Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that somewhere I heard that these chemicals create some kind of wax contamination? 

I also got the impression that the mites build up resistance to these chemicals.  Cindi
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2007, 12:34:52 AM »


I dont believe that "without doing SOMETHING the bees always succumb to the Varroa eventually" ,

I know of about 8 hives that are 7-14 years old on regular comb that is still going, shoot I have a couple of them!!!!

I am a firm believer that there is a mite resistance in certain bee's without any kind of help from us.

Frofessor TWT!

I you give that advice in your book, what is the value of it?

 " I have seen 8 hives alive" ........You don't care much about facts, do you?


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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2007, 12:47:16 AM »


I dont believe that "without doing SOMETHING the bees always succumb to the Varroa eventually" ,

I know of about 8 hives that are 7-14 years old on regular comb that is still going, shoot I have a couple of them!!!!

I am a firm believer that there is a mite resistance in certain bee's without any kind of help from us.

Frofessor TWT!

I you give that advice in your book, what is the value of it?

 " I have seen 8 hives alive" ........You don't care much about facts, do you?


Smiley oh yeh ole Buddie finsky, I like facts, just stirring the pot a little Wink  Smiley

I do believe there are survivors, and I do believe I have some, now whether they survive next year or not we will see but I have 6 hives going on there 4th birthday and they were old hives removed from home's,.     
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2007, 12:47:37 AM »

i'm sure there are hives that survive without any meds.  i just took one out of a wall.....however.....when we keep them in a box, we take away the natural ways that they might survive.....perhaps small cell is part of that, but considering the decimation of wild hives because of mites, i'd say it's not the main thing.

i made a few observations while digging around in the walls.  i'd like to explore them in depth, but have found no research yet.

1.  there was absolutely no brood in the hive.  that would break the mite cycle.
2.  there was very old comb that i do not believe had been used by bees in quite some time.  i don't know if that means anything
3.  there was evidence in the barn of multiple smaller hives having been removed, and i took out a fairly new hive.  probably just from last year.  does swarming contribute to survival of hive by removing bees from mite infested hive and giving them a clean start?  there are no SBB's in a wall.....if swarming is an important factor, then bees in hives are at much greater risk not only from the mites, but from the disease that come with the mites.

i think we have more questions than answers, and so far research has not provided any answers.  

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2007, 03:14:46 AM »

I do believe there are survivors, and I do believe I have some,


Sorry, I did not know that this forum's new name is BELIEVEMASTER

There is a big difference with "hive is alive" or "survivor"  compared to "economical beekeeping".  If in your hive 20% brood die, what ever reason, hive is not able to gather honey stores at all. If you just keep hives on backyard, it is same what you do there.

All we know that survivors are everywhere, it is not "believe" question. But none of those survivors have solved mite problem in beekeeping industry.   

In Finland there are old cow race which stands what ever, but it's milk production is only 30% that of modern cattle. Every year we ask, who keeps genes alive?  http://www.pilvilampaat.com/suomenkarja.htm


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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2007, 03:42:58 AM »


i think we have more questions than answers, and so far research has not provided any answers.  

Internet is full of answers if you want to read them. If you want answer that there are bees which don't mind mites, you do not find that answer. Why, because there is not such bees.

If you cannot use facts, which world offers, you are not able to learn. So simple.  Question is not good questions but it is "not learning", "not understanding"

I tell a story

It was a big flow and houses were more and more under water.  Hey come on people said. Lets go away, water is rising.

A man said:" I have been a good man and I prey for Good that he saves me.

A man was in second floor and a boat arrived:" Come on, jump to the boat. Water is rising!"
- No I prey that Good saves me. A man rised to his roof.
Then arived an escimo with canoe: Come on, water is rising! Come to canoe.
- No I prey that Good saves me. A man rised onto his chimney.

Then arrived helicopter: "Come on, step to helicopter, soon you will sink!"
- No I prey that Good saves me. And a man sank.

On the gate of sky he asked from Sant Peter, why don't you saved me even if I prayed.

Peter: "We tried three times but you did not accepted our aid."

.
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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2007, 06:13:08 AM »

>Isn't a screen bottom board,drone comb removal and powdered sugar, doing something?

I'm not saying it's not.  I'm glad that's working for you.
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« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2007, 11:26:31 AM »

Quote
Internet is full of answers if you want to read them.

perhaps i should have used the word "solutions".  there is great advice and much info on managing mites.  there is no solution at the moment to the mite problem.

better?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2007, 11:31:59 AM »

there is no solution at the moment to the mite problem.

better?

There are many solutions to mite problem if you use them. The fact is that honey bee cannot kill mites from it's hive.

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« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2007, 01:15:42 AM »

mites are like She's here in the USA, they will always bee here, the thing is to get a hive that survives with mites, all my hives have mites they way I know this when I check hives for debree the BB or tray under the SBB has then dead, SMR queens have been raised and sold here for quit a few years now and maybe some of these removals being done could be then SMR's or Russian, who knows but I haven't treated my hives going on 4 years now and they all do good so like before we will see this year probably.   . lets go deep in the subject, mites dont want to kill bee's, bee's are their food source if all bee's die then mites would die also, nature doesn't work like that,,,,,, the thing is the bee's not from the mites home area need time to evolve or maybe even the mites might evolve, nature will help correct this like the bee's in Asia can survive with them and Russia......   now lets open that can of worms about nature Wink , my ole Buddie Finsky will like this post  Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2007, 01:54:47 AM »

I haven't treated my hives going on 4 years now and they all do good so like before we will see this year probably.

lets go deep in the subject, mites dont want to kill bee's,

bee's are their food source if all bee's die then mites would die also,

There are mitekeepers and beekeepers.  huh  And those who do not want honey, they just want to play with bugs.


Quote
lets go deep in the subject, mites dont want to kill bee's,
 
 Yes very. That sentence revieles that you have not studied genetics at all or you have not understand evolution.  - Mite wants nothing. It has no plan what to do. It just exist and develope itself with genetic variation. They are like cars. Cars do not want collisions, they just happen.

Same time I gathered to you reseachers what really happens on mite frontier in USA. You even not read them. Understanding is much more difficult thatn reading.

I am not in this forum to argue with rookies. I just want to help to those who are under mercy of false prophets.

Senate Document No. 20
PUBLICATION YEAR 2006 View PDF Version* :  Virginia State......feral, or wild, honey bee nests nearly disappeared in 1996 and have only recently begun to reappear in some limited areas. ................... This parasitic mite transmits diseases, reduces honey bee productivity, and is the major contributing factor to the annual 31% mortality rate of honey bee hives in Virginia, up from less than 8% before the introduction of honey bee mites into the state.



TWT

How much you get honey per hive?

How many boxes you hives have during main flow?

Really stuborn gang. I cannot say more. But 99% of beepers are stubborns what I have met. - It means that 99% waste of time, but nice time.

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« Last Edit: February 24, 2007, 03:57:57 AM by Finsky » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2007, 12:28:37 PM »

My yard today. The added boxes were from my 2 deadouts. One nuc has 25 lbs of capped stores on top now.
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« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2007, 01:37:11 PM »

.
 I se from picture that you will be OK with your small nucs Newbee. You may take frames of emerging bees from big hives and soon they have good build up. - When big hives are good enough to give aid to small hives.

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« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2007, 02:13:20 PM »

  The most difficult time of year is coming up here.  I don't worry too much about the bees during the coldest part of the winter, but late winter and early spring are extremely variable around here.  Many days in the last 2 weeks with bees flying.  Daytime temps mid 40's to mid 50's.  No doubt they are brooding up.  Then Thursday the wind howls, and 10 inches of new snow, more snow predicted through next week.  Daytime highs will be back in the low to mid 30's.  This pattern continues well into April and the expanding, then getting slapped back really knocks down the stores.  Getting them thru winter is easy.  It's getting them thru spring that is troublesome here.
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Finsky
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« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2007, 02:35:48 PM »

  The most difficult time of year is coming up here.  I don't worry too much about the bees during the coldest part of the winter,

That is true. Even if colony is 95% alive after winter,  Often hives have lost 50%  bees during one week when they have tried to forage pollen in too cold weather.. When sun goes behind clouds, bees drop down and never return home. But that is "normal" system.
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TwT
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« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2007, 11:02:52 AM »


I am not in this forum to argue with rookies. I just want to help to those who are under mercy of false prophets.

now what the hell you mean by that? you saying because I dont treat my hives and they live that that this is stupid? There are more and more people keeping bee's here that dont treat with anything and having good results.. nobody whats to argue or be insulted, if you have to put stuff in your hives for them to survive then do it. I just posted what i am doing, not for people to do what I do!!!! that's a choice..



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TWT

How much you get honey per hive?

that depends Finsky, on years when I plant clover and other things I can get about 150-180 pounds a hive, on years I dont plant the get about 60-100 pounds


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How many boxes you hives have during main flow?

between 3-7 supers



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Really stubborn gang. I cannot say more. But 99% of beepers are stubborns what I have met. - It means that 99% waste of time, but nice time.



my wife tells me that all the time!!!!

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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

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Cindi
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« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2007, 11:09:36 AM »

newbie101.  I remember seeing your picture of your hives quite a long time ago.  I think that you have a beautiful set up.  The picture some time ago stuck in my mind and when I saw this picture, I remembered my admiration of this set up.  Good for you.  Best of the best day.  Cindi
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« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2007, 05:01:02 PM »

Give em hell TWT!
Thanks Cindi!!
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« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2007, 11:55:35 AM »

This forum is priceless, seriously. The good natured badinage, the occasional miffed post - it's great! Many forums tend to be populated by stuffed shirts who whine and snivel over the first sign of discord but here the attitudes are pretty cool.

With chemicals - in a world with high cancer rates, increasing behavioral disorders among children, etc, etc, etc, it would seem logical for people to seek pragmatic alternatives to chemical treatments, many of which have unknown long term effects (some have had negative effects). Generally speaking the funding for honeybee research is often poor, actually diminishing in many areas. So - in my opinion - having the intelligent hobbyist sector experiment with management/breeding techniques seems both sound and SANE. It's in the commercial beekeeping area where most of the trouble seems to originate.
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