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Author Topic: Mould In Syrup  (Read 3115 times)
Yarra_Valley
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« on: February 19, 2007, 06:49:18 AM »

I friend of mine had a hive so congested that it swarmed way after the "swarm season", about five or six weeks ago. It settled in some vacant 8 frame boxes, which couldn't stay there so it been moved to my place. Bad for him because he won't get any honey out the hive, good for me because I have a new colony Smiley.

Anyway, I've been feeding them 1:1 sugar syrup since a moved them to my place. I've fed them about 4 gallons so far, in 3 weeks I think. Yesterday when I took the pails out to see how much they had taken, i noticed one was still full and had the starting of mold in it. the syrup had been on the hive for about 10 days. is it normal for mold to develop in 1:1 syrup in that time span. If so obviously i should feed in smaller quantities more often. Just wondering if the mold should be there in the first place.

Thanks in advance for replies Wink

James.

mick, how are you bees? oh yeah, how are you too cool ??
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2007, 07:13:15 AM »

I don't worry about it.  Syrup molds.  If it gets too bad I throw it out, but a little bit is nothing to worry about.  Bees can filter out the smallest pollen granule, they can filter out the mold.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2007, 07:19:40 AM »

.
Sugar syrup generates mold if it gets some dirty or impurities. Pure sugar liguid does not give enough food for microbies.



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Cindi
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2007, 10:04:09 AM »

Finsky, beautiful  Finnish folk song.  Greatest of days.  Cindi
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Finsky
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2007, 10:20:57 AM »

Finsky, beautiful  Finnish folk song.  Greatest of days.  Cindi


Words are quite naughty!

The song originates from 1995 but in 2006 someone put  following video in internet and put leek into hand. And now Eva's polka is very famous all over internet.
http://www.hersenscheet.com/loituma.php




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Yarra_Valley
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2007, 06:17:10 PM »

ok, so it isn't going to harm them, that's the important part. Trying to build them up strong enough to make it through the winter.

Thanks guys.
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Scott Derrick
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2007, 09:07:41 PM »

I put a little spearmint and lemongrasss essential oils in my syrup. Typically about 15 drops of each per 3.5 pound jar. I never have issues with mold when I do this. I don't to keep the mold from occuring but to stimulate feeding. The formula I use is very close to the Honeybee Healthy formula.

Scott
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2007, 09:22:19 PM »

I like 2:1 better because it spoils less.  I also add some vitamin C (about 7 grams per five gallons of syrup) to make it keep better.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2007, 09:53:10 PM »

when I feed my bee's dont give it time to mold, but after a while some mold will grow on the jars, it dont hurt nothing......
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« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2007, 12:12:54 AM »

I put a small amount of apple cider vinegar in the syrup. It slows the mold and brings the acidity up close to that of honey. I use 1/4 cup per 2 gallons. So far no observed affect on the bees...
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Finsky
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« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2007, 12:43:54 AM »

when I feed my bee's dont give it time to mold,

Yes, it is better feed so that syrup does not stay long. Mold is not usefull to bees or in human food stuff.
When otherwise you guys are so sensitive to contaminations. cool
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Yarra_Valley
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« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2007, 03:40:02 AM »

I like 2:1 better because it spoils less.  I also add some vitamin C (about 7 grams per five gallons of syrup) to make it keep better.


Any particular vitamin c you add? Do bees take the same to sodium ascorbate, calcium ascorbate and ascorbic acid the same?

I also add a single drop of lemongrass to two galons of syrup when I make it, its strong stuff. I wasn't sure how much I could add safely. I was a little cautious of adding it at first as its a week hive and I didn't want to attract robbers. I did a test the first time a fed two gallons of syrup. One gallon pail with lemongrass, one without. They took the entire gallon with lemongrass before the touched the gallon without. quite interesting.

Apparantly 1:1 promotes comb building more so than 1:2 (brood rearing), or 2:1 (honey stores), or is that old info? Me thinks they would use whatever ratio to construct whatever they need at the time. 2:1 might be the way forward. 

After an inspection yesterday, they have about 5 frames with brood in now, plus stores. should be strong enough for winter soon.

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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2007, 04:34:31 AM »


Apparantly 1:1 promotes comb building more so than 1:2 (brood rearing), or 2:1 (honey stores), or is that old info?

1) Combs are build best when is honey flow. It must be good reason to build combs with sugar

2) Sugar feeding does not help in brood rearing

3) to add winter food.......

And mold is not good in any these case. If you are carefull, you do not get mold. Take syrup off if bees do not take it.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2007, 05:56:44 AM »

>Any particular vitamin c you add?

Ascorbic acid.

> Do bees take the same to sodium ascorbate, calcium ascorbate and ascorbic acid the same?

You need the acid to change the pH of the syrup to keep it from molding.

>Apparantly 1:1 promotes comb building more so than 1:2 (brood rearing), or 2:1 (honey stores), or is that old info?

Those are what are commonly believed.  I agree with Finsky.  Syrup doesn't induce brood rearing, pollen and adequate stores do.  Syrup can be used to make up for dwindling stores to help get them to raise brood, but 2:1 works just as well for that and keeps better and is easier to haul around becuase there is less water in it.
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Michael Bush
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pdmattox
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« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2007, 05:08:39 PM »

I sometimes get some mold on the inside of the jars but i think it is nothing to worry about.

Syrup mixed with water (70%syrup and 30%water) and fed continuosly when pollen is coming in or with pollen patty will make the bees start rearing brood and drawing wax.

Syrup alone and not dilluted will build up stores.

This is a observation and method i have used this year. Started feeding with syrup mix on 12/26/07 and have done quite well with building up strong hives.
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Keith
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2007, 05:15:00 PM »

Apple cider vinager boost the imune system in humans and probably would do the same for the bees.
Ive been taking a shot size glass every morning for five years now. I dont even get a runny nose.
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michelleb
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2007, 10:04:50 PM »

I can attest that apple cider vinegar keeps the mold away. I also use it in my chicken waterer.

The vinegar seems to make the syrup more, rather than less, attractive to the bees.
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Pocket Meadow Farm
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2007, 03:17:00 AM »

HOW CAN MOULDY SYRUP NOT BE bad for bees?  I have been told before that mould on frames is ok, bees will clean it up.  We burn homes down that have mould problems, I don't get why its ok for bees.  Sure bees can and do take care of mould problems, but how ill does it make them or how much does it reduce their immune systems? I can't help but look at the photos from the Pen state CCD report and think that THERE is the evidence that mould, virus, and bacteria harm bees.  Whatever the cause of CCD is, look at the photos of fungial/bacterial damage of the bees in the report. Whether CCD is caused by a bacteria/fungus/virus, or whether it just makes bees susceptable to attack its worth avoiding all moulds.  Here is a size comparison.

CCD is suspected of being caused in part by rotation of frames from weaker colonies, and aspergillus is suspected to be one possible agent.

The aspergillus spore is the smallest dot.  The large one is a mushroom spore.  I'm stealing this information from Paul Stamets and J.S. Chilton two microbiologists. 
"Aspergillus.  Some species toxic.  Aspergillus flavus, a yellow to yellowish green species, produces deadly aflatoxins....of all the biologically produced toxins, the aflatoxins are the most potent heptacarcinogens yet found.  This is a deadly genus.  The toxicity of this genus was largely unknown until in 1960, 100,000 turkeys mysteriously died from an outbreak of this disease in great britain."The size of aspergillus is too small to see without an electron microscope so I don't know how the bees would be able to see/deal with the spores effectively? Once aspergillus reaches reproductive maturity it is only 3-5 microns big. 
I would not take chances on allowing mould in syrup.  If you can prevent it, and you can, do so.  Smaller amounts of sugar syrup, and no hive top feeders with straw for bees to land on.  Straw is a perfect substrate for Aspergillus.  These toxins can and do kill humans.  Those that work in mushroom plants can pick up a lung disease called "mushroom workers lung disease" Very nasty. 
I haven't tried it myself, but lemongrass oil sounds like something that would work against moulds effectively.  Aspergillus also thrives in a near neutral ph, so vinegar (which works as a cleaner due to its changing ph) should work well too. 
CCD is being hyped up in the media, but we should not be complacent about moulds, they can kill us as well as bees.  I use aspergillus as an example because it has come up in reports on CCD recently as a potential agent, but there are a lot of deadly moulds which are quite common.  Anthrax is common in animal skin, and used to be call the goat shepards disease, because while weapons grade anthrax isn't floating around, close contact can kill you.  Sticking our noses around in a mouldy box puts us close enough to be exposed to some nasty stuff.  Usually our immune systems can fight off most things, but why take a chance?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 05:47:40 AM by BEE C » Logged
Finsky
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2007, 05:47:01 AM »

.
Why to accept mold in syrup? It means that syrup has taken water outside and it begung to ferment. Yes, I have black mould in my feeding boxes every year when I have feede for dwinter 2 weeks my hives. But I do not recommend mouldy systems.

You undestand that this is not only beehive. You broduce human food. And taste of mould does not make honey better. Human tongue is very sensitive to mouldy juices and fruits, you know.

That is not question that bees stand mould. There is many kind of mould. You speak chemical but you accept stuffs which you know that they are not good to human healt.

Once  my hive had lost outer cover in autumn and in spring inner cover was full of blue mould. Hive was alive but surely it was sick. It's brood area was in bad condition.  When I first found the moud, I thinked that that't nothing. But hive did not start to develope and the reason was mould.

Believe or not, I just told you.

.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2007, 06:56:16 AM »

>but how ill does it make them or how much does it reduce their immune systems?

Many molds have antibacterial properties.  Notably, of course Penicillin, but also many others.  Why do you assume it reduces their immune system?

I would be curious to know exactly what the "black" mold is and what it's properties are.  Also, when using organic acids in the syrup, you sometimes eventually get a red mold.  I'd be curious what that is also.

Meanwhile, you can tell the bees don't seem to mind a little mold, but they get where they won't take it if there is a lot of mold in it.
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Michael Bush
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