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Author Topic: Woman as leaders  (Read 3601 times)
kathyp
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« on: February 08, 2007, 06:38:28 PM »

OK, I'm going to start this without giving my opinion on the subject.  i saw something today that made me think about this.

Questions:  What do you think about women in top leadership positions?  In what leadership positions might they be best?  Are there positions that women should never hold?  Should women be evaluated in the same way as men, when considered for a leadership position?

that ought to do for a start   evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2007, 07:47:06 PM »

OK, I'm going to start this without giving my opinion on the subject.  i saw something today that made me think about this.

Questions:  What do you think about women in top leadership positions?  In what leadership positions might they be best?  Are there positions that women should never hold?  Should women be evaluated in the same way as men, when considered for a leadership position?

that ought to do for a start   evil
Women in leadership or management positions never bothered me as long as they did the job properly. I work with female managers and bosses all the time. They can be like male bosses and leaders, good and bad. I don't extend any extra thought to a female manager or leader than I do a male one. Do your job right or get out.

I don't know if I would discern a specfic leadership role as good for women. There are women who make good leaders and women who don't. Just like men. The problem is the perception of what is good role for men and what is a good role for women. Women should be able to hold any position that men do in a leadership or  management role.

Yes, women should be evaluated the same as men when in consideration for a leadership role.

You can set a a great deal of the differences in man and women and their approach to issues. You can seperate the mental approach to those issues but the result is usually the same.

You can look at old classifieds in newspapers that were seperated by sex.

I remember hearing often about how much better things would be if women ran things whenI was younger. As I have gotten older I have come to the sad realization that women as leaders are no better or worse than men. Good leaders are good reguardless of sex.


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Brendhan
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2007, 07:49:47 PM »

Sure.  Women should be able to hold any position a man can.  I think the right woman can do as good a job as the right man could.  I mean, we've already had a woman president(Clinton) and the country didn't fall compleatly apart.....
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2007, 04:40:31 AM »

i have absolutely nothing against women in leader position, further more, our country has been lead or directed by women better than by man, of course long time ago.they've always had better position than in other european countryes, that's why they were allowed to take leaders position, and that in mid-ages!!

but, as for women being a president, well, of course it varies from one person to the other, it's the same with male. but scientist have proven that IN GENERAL women are...more careful, they always want to be insured and that's why they are IN GENERAL not good for leaders, they perfer not to take any risks.
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2007, 03:15:51 PM »

I think it foolish to think the RIGHT Woman couldn't LEAD the United States, I just don't see the "Right Woman" stepping forward. To think Hillary may be that woman is sickening to me.

To this day, I think she is the most evil and manipulative person to ever reside in the Whitehouse. She played the "Poor Cheated-on Wife Card" to the fullest, I wouldn't put it past her to have given to Monica that "pizza to take to Bill" on that faithful night in history that lead to the Impeachment to the first President in our History.

What did that Impeachment do to hurt Bill Clinton's career?, nothing. He is still the most popular of living Presidents, and from those Trials of impropriety was born a Senator from New York. I find it all too coincidental that "as one Clinton leaves, another rises from the ashes".

So, yes a Woman can lead us as Women have lead many other countries, but this evil political she-creature representing New York talks and acts as if she has been there forever and even though I'll give her credit that she is smart in the ways of politics, she still smiles like the GRINCH with bugging eyes - I can only assume if she takes office as President, she'll shed her outer skin and the 14 foot tall cockroach hidden inside will step forth and say "How ya like me now?"
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2007, 05:01:00 PM »

When I think of Hillary in the White house I can't help but think of what Nancy Pelosi is doing in Congress, renege on your promises of cooperation and demand a plane as big as Air Force One.  Hillary has always struck me as a very cold blooded woman.

Women can be very good in management and executive possitions, but like men they still have to fight not to be corrupted by power.
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2007, 07:00:29 PM »

I To think Hillary may be that woman is sickening to me.

HERE, HERE!!!!!   grin
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2007, 08:59:22 PM »

when i was young, my mother called me my fathers oldest son.  it is true that he taught me to shoot, bought me boxing gloves so i could fight my brothers, and taught me how to win a debate.  he also taught me that if i was doing the popular thing, i was probably doing the wrong thing.

the last might be the key to why most women, and especially American woman, are poor leaders.  women tend to want to lead by consensus.  that's fine if you are the head nurse and trying to figure out which night to have the pot luck.  it does not work when you are a general in combat, or the president of the US.

women tend to be more emotional, and hold on to grudges....or  try to buy consensus with favors.  Pelosi did this with Jane Harmon, and Jack Mertha.

women tend to look at everything through their womanhood.  again Pelosi is a good example.  when interviewed about the plane request, she started one statement "as a women.....".  i thought $^* does being a women have to do with whether you plane needs to refuel or not.....unless there is no head on the thing.....then maybe I'd want a pit stop.....

American society has played a role.  we do not have royalty, so we have no women groomed from birth to be leaders.  we have traditionally protected women, so we don't turn out a Golda Meir.  we have made such a big deal of feminism, that we are more concerned with a '1st', than we are with a 'best'.  Karpinski was a good example.  I don't know if she was the first female US field general, but she is among the first.  if you go back a look at her military history, it's more about the things she did as a military WOMAN, than as a military leader.

sort story:  when i was in the military, there was a field specialty that i really wanted.  when i first went in, it was closed to women because it was considered a combat assignment.  some flipping feminist finally talked the pentagon into letting women into this specialty, and even though i was getting kind of old for that game, i decided to go for it.  the deal the military made was that we had to meet the same standards that the guys met.  that was fine with me.  of the 20 or so who started, 5 of us finished.  upon completion, a military reporter stuck a mic in our face and wanted to know how we felt about being among the first women to complete this program.....we had already been instructed to be polite....which was his good fortune....but i have always wondered why he didn't go ask the other 15 how it felt to be the first women to have failed..... 

IMHO we need to pay less attention to firsts...first black/latino/women/catholic/mormon.....and more attention to the leadership qualities of the person we put out there.  a failed leader, is a failed leader.  in the end it does not matter what they look like.

and....we need to remember that being popular, is not the same as being a leader.


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2007, 06:13:08 AM »

Kathy:

So well put. I think we have GW Bush in office for only ONE REASON, this generation wanted to be one of THOSE generations to elect a Father and a Son in office. I still wonder what other qualities GW brought to the table that spell-bound a country BARELY enough to pull off that GW vs. Gore debacle.

I can see a second win, people don't like swapping horses mid-stream and (although sad but probably true) Bush was the lesser of the two evils against Kerry.

You are so right, we are in a groove of wanting to see the first of everything occur in our short lives on Earth, somehow leave a legacy that will tell Americans and the World we were first generations to open our land to Devils and demons at the cost of just breaking down racial and gender barriers - what foolishness if this happens.

The part I hope you are wrong about is that: I believe there must be some Americans (other than 50+ year old males) capable of superior wisdom and bearing the Right Stuff to step forward and lead our great land further toward its destiny. I just hope no one thinks I'm talking about Hillary, I had enough of her when she tried pushing Universal Health Care on us from the First Lady Position on DAY ONE of Bill Clinton's Administration.

I'll end saying what my heart tells me once again... Presidents are NOT MADE they are BORN. I really believe that and just because Hillary was born (I guess hatched still qualifies as born) doesn't mean she is Presidential - it is a special person that makes it to the Whitehouse, and although that may not be predestined for any given election, the truly blessed and equiped few will eventually make it to our most esteemed position in government.
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2007, 08:13:40 AM »

hey kathy, now that you've mentioned it...our army has about...20% or 30% lower standards for women...i mean so much for emancipation and being equal. this means...if my comrades are 20% less tough than me..that just might cost lives in some situations.
some things just aren't for ALL women and so some things aren't for ALL men. but since no woman has ever....lead an army...what tha hell, just push the first poor little thing that comes by into doing it, even if she's the most incompotent.
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« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2007, 10:21:29 PM »

I'm of the opinion that women run the world
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2007, 02:12:53 AM »

when i was young, my mother called me my fathers oldest son.  it is true that he taught me to shoot, bought me boxing gloves so i could fight my brothers, and taught me how to win a debate.  he also taught me that if i was doing the popular thing, i was probably doing the wrong thing.
The idea of women as leaders is not popular with some people in this country.

Quote
the last might be the key to why most women, and especially American woman, are poor leaders.  women tend to want to lead by consensus.  that's fine if you are the head nurse and trying to figure out which night to have the pot luck.  it does not work when you are a general in combat, or the president of the US.
Being a head nurse is not a leader by consensus. So let's write off Condoleeza Rice, Shirley Chisom, Kathleen Blanco and countless more

Quote
women tend to be more emotional, and hold on to grudges....or  try to buy consensus with favors.  Pelosi did this with Jane Harmon, and Jack Mertha.
Oh yeah God forbid a women might have PMS and start war with a foriegn country. Unlike men.

Quote
women tend to look at everything through their womanhood.  again Pelosi is a good example.  when interviewed about the plane request, she started one statement "as a women.....".  i thought $^* does being a women have to do with whether you plane needs to refuel or not.....unless there is no head on the thing.....then maybe I'd want a pit stop.....
Men to look at things from a male point of view. You can also add , cultural, religious, and other aspects of who we are as part of having an effect on a point of view. I don't think Nancy needs a plane.

Quote
American society has played a role.  we do not have royalty, so we have no women groomed from birth to be leaders.  we have traditionally protected women, so we don't turn out a Golda Meir.  we have made such a big deal of feminism, that we are more concerned with a '1st', than we are with a 'best'.  Karpinski was a good example.  I don't know if she was the first female US field general, but she is among the first.  if you go back a look at her military history, it's more about the things she did as a military WOMAN, than as a military leader.

So because we don't have royalty women aren't groomed to be leaders , yet we still manage to get lots of women leaders. Golda Meir was born in Russia and spent most of her childhood and younger adult years in of all places ,  Milwaukee, Wisconsin. She was an american citizen when she moved to Palestine to establish a Jewish state.

Karpinski was in the army since 1977 served during the first gulf war, with special forces and was awarded the bronze star. She became a general because she was good at what she did. However the army in it's infinite wisdom sometimes places people in assignments they don't have experience in. If you have served you are very familar with some of the less sensible aspects of the military order of doing things. So she was assigned to be in charge of a prison. That prison was Abu Ghraib. Things went very wrong there. And I am not going to condone anyone's actions there. But because she was a women has no bearing in my mind on the atrocities that took place there. Men can lead torture chambers also.

Quote
sort story:  when i was in the military, there was a field specialty that i really wanted.  when i first went in, it was closed to women because it was considered a combat assignment.  some flipping feminist finally talked the pentagon into letting women into this specialty, and even though i was getting kind of old for that game, i decided to go for it.  the deal the military made was that we had to meet the same standards that the guys met.  that was fine with me.  of the 20 or so who started, 5 of us finished.  upon completion, a military reporter stuck a mic in our face and wanted to know how we felt about being among the first women to complete this program.....we had already been instructed to be polite....which was his good fortune....but i have always wondered why he didn't go ask the other 15 how it felt to be the first women to have failed..... 
Why? They failed you succeded. This was a chance to show that women are as good as men. Getting the media to look at a positive is rare enough. I like that they did for once.

Quote
IMHO we need to pay less attention to firsts...first black/latino/women/catholic/mormon.....and more attention to the leadership qualities of the person we put out there.  a failed leader, is a failed leader.  in the end it does not matter what they look like.

and....we need to remember that being popular, is not the same as being a leader.

However being an unpopular leader doesn't mean you are a good leader either.
So instead of being lead by a woman who answers to her hormones we are lead by a man who answers to oil and gas corporations.

I am not sure Hillary will be the nominee for the Dems and for me it doesn't matter I don't vote the primaries. But do I think because Hillary is a woman she can't be a good leader? Hell no. It is amazing to me that in one forum I have women who eat me alive if I make any generalization about women and in this one I have a woman who doesn't feel her sex makes good leaders because she feels women want lead by consensus.

I am going to go and thumb through my mail order bride catalog now.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2007, 09:15:07 AM »

Just because someone is the president doesn't mean they are any kind of a leader. How many in government has been elected to some office just because of their name? People don't vote for leaders, they vote for ideas.
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2007, 10:37:34 AM »

Quote
So let's write off Condoleeza Rice, Shirley Chisom, Kathleen Blanco and countless more

i think we have a different view of leadership.  you listed 1 1/2 (at best) leaders.  under no circumstances can blanco be considered a leader.  she is an elected official.  that is not the same.

i think my point was this:  we do not teach leadership, especially to women.  we don't have the traditional mechanisms in our society that would turn out women leaders. some women learn how on their own .

what we do, and this seems to be especially true of the emotional left, is raise up tokens.  it makes us feel good.  raising up token whatevers, diminishes the true achievements of people like rice or those like her.

in the normal course of things, Powell, Karpinski, etc. would not have achieved the positions they held.  Karpinski never did anything in her career to warrant the star.  Powell would never have made it to 4.  of course, neither did Clark.....

most of the rest of your post i disagree with...surprise!! smiley, but the argument would be pointless, i think.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2007, 04:02:41 PM »

Yes, the argument would be pointless, but for the record, I disagree with you, too.   I guess as a strong woman myself I don't take such a dim view of other women.  All men aren't born leaders, either.  It may not be fostered in women, but there are definitely good women leaders.  Women who lead against the odds are stronger than any male leader.  Thing is, women lead differently.  You can lead without being in the forefront.   
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« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2007, 05:04:02 PM »

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Thing is, women lead differently

yes they do.  they generally lead by consensus.  that works in some situations.

Quote
there are definitely good women leaders

yes, there are.  i don't believe that was ever a disputed point.

Quote
You can lead without being in the forefront.

that would be a difference in leadership between men and most women.  again, ok sometimes.  not ok when an absolute decision needs to be made. 

i don't think you read what i wrote very carefully. 


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2007, 09:38:13 PM »

I did, Kathy.  I also read what you said earlier about women and having to take a test to drive a large vehicle.  I don't much care for generalizations.  I've never fit a norm, and the norm you describe for woman definitely doesn't fit me or many women I know - sounds that it doesn't include you, either.  So why be so distainful of women in general?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to understand.   Undecided
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« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2007, 10:10:16 PM »

i'll ask you up front to cut me a little slack.  i caught something nasty and i'm about seeing double...... tongue

as i recall, the thing that got me started on this rant was pelosi.  i have a problem with women, or anyone else, who want equality yet insist that they be given special recognition because they are different.

if you have the ability to do a thing, do it.  race or gender should not be a factor.  i'm not into affirmative action.  i think it is demeaning.  i think the whole womans movement is demeaning.  there are things that women do better than men.  there are things men do better than woman.  in general, women are more nurturing.  they are emotionally better equipped to raise children.  that doesn't mean that men can't do it.  it's just that in a perfect world, women would do it and do it better.  men are better, in general, in command positions.  there are women who can take command.  there are women who can learn to take command.  men are more apt to have that particular leadership ability naturally.  in a committee setting or volunteer group, a women might have a better touch.

regardless of how people might be genetically wired, when we pick leaders we need to be careful that we are picking people with the skills for the job, and not making a social statement.

and i stand by my statement about vehicles.  nothing bigger than a honda until you can prove you can park the thing, and stay between the lines.   being able to back up would be helpful too.  hail mary and a glance in the rear view mirror are not driving skills.

that probably didn't clear things up much.....
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2007, 10:27:53 PM »

I allowed my daughter to drive my Durango before she was old enough to get her license. But I wouldn't even attempt to get my oldest son a drivers license. I didn't want to be responsible in any way for him on the road.

All the women truck drivers I knew could handle those big rigs better than any man I knew. Yep that includes me.

Ok. Sorry. Back to the debate.
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2007, 08:50:21 AM »

Kathy, we're closer than I thought  cool  But I still maintain anyone has to prove their driving ability, not just women.  I've seen too many male idiots on the road to think otherwise. 

Didja hear about the Darwin Award nominee who was using his laptop on the highway?  Honda vs. Hummer = dead Honda driver.  At least he didn't seriously injure anyone in the Hummer!
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