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Author Topic: Do your bees like pollen patty  (Read 2668 times)
Finsky
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« on: February 05, 2007, 04:03:31 PM »

I have seen here many good and lazy man's advices about pollen patty.

You may make it perhaps simple but you may wonder why they do not eate it. What is enough?

In picture frame tops it is full of pollen patty. Colony eates them during one week. Sometimes it takes only 4 days.

With this concept bees eate up to summer even if they get pollen outside. If patty is not tasty or it is dry, they forget it at once when they get pollen from nature.  So it is better to stand nuisance when you make patty and offer it to bees.  There is no lazy way in this issue if you want 100% results.

The brown frame makes space higher so patty is nice to put onto frames.




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newbee101
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2007, 05:18:27 PM »

Mine use them, but never finish them.
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2007, 05:33:27 PM »

I never consider the fact that they failed to consume all of the patty an important factor.  After all the idea is to provide a protein source to influence brood production.  Once the hive as availability to natural pollen, in sufficient quantities they will stop feeding on the patty.  That's as it should be and is preferrable.  Forcing them to eat it all can be counter productive.  Also, if there is a lot of pollen early in the year, feeding patties may not be necessary at all.
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2007, 06:34:51 PM »

mine finished them in short order the first time i put one on, but the second one they didn't finish.  i figured they'd found stuff out flying that they liked better, so i removed the rest of the second one.  guess i'll just play it by ear this year.  looks like we have warmed and if this continues, we'll have fist blooms in a couple of weeks. 
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Finsky
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2007, 12:57:07 AM »

I never consider the fact that they failed to consume all of the patty an important factor. 


Brian, alltogether you want to missunderdstand my message. That is pity for those who want to learn patty feeding. 

What I am saying is that there are many kind of pollen patty, even I have when I mix stuff. I have made pollen cakes and pollen patty 16 years. I have really trained it. When I drive car 200 miles to my bee yard, I don't want to drive vainly.  And I like that when I come again aften one week, bees have consumed all. To drive car is as expencive as patty stuff.  One spring I feeded 160 lbs irradiated pollen and then I found yeast and soyaflour.  It is expencive.

* bees love some kind of patties and some not
*  some they cannot eat because it is too hard to bite. Moisture is the key factor; does patty catch moisture from hive air or not!
* some are not tasty if there is under 20% pollen.

You cannot force them to anything. They stop if they stop.  But if you give water onto pollen patty, you se at once that they start to eat it.
So you find that it was too dry.

 Cindy says that best is when you mix pollen and sugar. That is not true at all.

MIchael says that you need not grease paper - that is not true. What  a mesh when patty goes onto bottom board, and if it it too hard, bees cannot bite it.

You need not that and and that . It is vain to give a good recipe when all are ready to twist that whatever, even if they do not know what is the idea.

Protein: that is but in fact it is collection of aminoacids what bees need. And vitamins too.


Quote
.  Once the hive as availability to natural pollen, in sufficient quantities they will stop feeding on the patty.  That's as it should be and is preferrable. 


That happened to me 10 years when I feeded pollen and honey mixture.  But when I learned to make better patty, they eated it even if they got natural pollen.  And idea is that in my country thera are bad weathers and often it takes  one week that bees are able to gather poollen outside. When brood area in almost 2 box they need every day huge measure pollen : Hatched bees need it and larvae.


Quote
  Also, if there is a lot of pollen early in the year, feeding patties may not be necessary at all.

Every one knows that bees do not need patty. When you want to feed them with patyy, that is not the answer.


if there is a lot of pollen early in the year    when I start to feed bees with patty, snow is still on ground and pollen will be after 3 weeks.

I do not know how weather develope after that. But after my 45 years experience I know that first pollen month is such a like that bees can go out or cannot. No one knows when you start feeding. And when I give the load of patty to bees, I am working  in capital city during week and I am not quarding bees there. I load hives with patty, what ever it happnes.

Of course when they stop eating patty, I must stop it. Every one understand this.

In my country beekeepers resist patty feeding because they don't want to know what is idea. But they all are such opinion that sugar is enough to accelerate brood rearing.

To get pollen enough - yes, that is the question, but what is enough. That is endless argue.

I have  found in practice that in internet you get good feeding recipes but in beekeeping forums recipes are quickly destroyed with all kind of opinions.
I have got my nowaday's recipes from researches but for 10 years I did my own.

And best recipes originates from US universities. Idea is not mine.

.


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Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2007, 02:54:52 AM »

.
Yeast in patty

Yeast has good amino acid values and living yeast has vitamins. It makes patty soft and it is easy to bees chew it.

In picture you se white granules in patty . It is dry baking yeast. It is used in dough machines. I bye it  1 $/lbs.


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Cindi
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2007, 09:28:38 AM »

Maybe I need to retract a statement regarding pollen patty ingredients.  Finsky indicated in a post today that when I said that mixing pollen and sugar are best, he said that is not true.  This needs to be looked at.  I do not want to give any information that is not sound and may teach something not right or true.

I trust what this man of 45 years of beekeeping and university degrees says.  He indicates that there are many amino acid values and basically nutrients, living yeast has many vitamins.  If one thinks about this indepth, the more nutrients that are contained in the pollen patty, the better for the bees.  We know that there is many nutrients in pollen, but the added nutrients from the yeast should be implemented as well.  We want the healthiest bees we can keep, right?   I recall Finsky also said that he gave vitamin C into the patty as well, think about that one.

My opinion, follow what Finsky says about the yeast being utilized when making the pollen patty.

The recipe that I gave on the forum a while ago was given to fellow beekeepers from the Inspector of Apiaries, for the BC Ministry of Land and Agriculture.  This inspector also should know what she is talking about, and she says to add the brewers yeast.  I will follow her advice, it was corraborated by Finsky, yeast it shall be.

This is all food for thought, and should be thought about, and your own opinions formed.  Greatest of days.  Cindi
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2007, 09:35:46 AM »

More thought.  Last year I see in my records that the bees were consuming no less than one full pollen patty a week.  These patties were one pound each approximately.  That is alot of pollen patty. 

I began to feed pollen patty on March 4 and stoppped after May 2.  That is two months.  They ate all the pollen I gave them all up always.   When I stopped around May 2, they had began to not take the pollen patty anymore, there was some left over.  I knew that that was the time to not put any more in.

This year I will be starting to feed pollen patty next day it is not raining so I can get into my two hives.  I hear that my Chinese mentor has already began to feed pollen patty, a few days ago.  So....I will begin.  It certainly cannot hurt anything in our area.   Greatest of days.  Cindi
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Finsky
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2007, 09:58:25 AM »

I said that mixing pollen and sugar are best, he said that is not true.  This needs to be looked at. 

I have feeded mere pollen + honey to bees 12 years.  Sugar + pollen will give quite dry and hard result and really bees stop eating when they get better pollen from nature.  Pollen + honey were not good enough when I used it.

And allways when you use pollen, soften it with water overnight and stir it to powder.
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 11:41:51 AM »

Finsky-I searched for your recipe on the forum. It appears you have ammended your own recipe. So one more time please, the recipe is........
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BEE C
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2007, 05:46:12 AM »

Last spring Cindi and I's teacher told me to not bother feeding more than the one huge honking patty because the weather was great in our area.  I remember many sunny days in spring with the occasional watering for a few hours.  There was actually a yellow dust (pollen from?) that covered EVERYTHING around my house (Have you seen this cindi, or know what it could be from) It was so thick you could see in in the short grass.  However, like finsky points out, it doesn't hurt, and is extra insurance against bad weather, low quality local pollen ( ie. bad amino acid spectrum)  etc.  This year I would like to continually feed pollen until they stop taking it in.  Last year I bought pollen patties from my mentor and they were chewed up to nothing, only  a few skibbly bits left.  Being new to this, I am curious about the best ingredients.  I would rather stay away from micro nutrients due to processing contaminents, so yeast, pollen, sugar and water seem to me safe tested ingredients that a newbie cant go wrong with.  From everything I've read, its a matter of how well you mix these ingredients and in what proportion.  I would be curious what your recipe is too finsky, and others.  There is a lot of science out there and I would love to have any links to studies.  Not just recipes but WHEN?, how many people feed pollen patties in late summer?  It makes sense to me that if its benefital to feed pollen patties in spring, why not before the winter bees are born to make darn sure that the wintered bees are as healthy as possible? Dearth periods in summer too? 
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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2007, 06:08:17 AM »


I have changed my recipe all the time. Now I use yeast more.

The basic for savings is that irradiated pollen costs 12 €/kg. Soya flour and yeast is 2 €/kg.

Patty must have 50% sugar that it will not fermented.

Do a mix where is 20% irradiated pollen . Soften it over night with water.  One litre pollen weights 700 g.
2 parts dry yeast or 4 parts fresh bakery yeast
1 part soya flour.

If patty yeast makes publes, add sugar.

I add vitamin C too.

Here is one advice http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/apiculture/factsheets/410_nutrition.htm


Patty must be very near to bee cluster so young bees may eat it. Best place is over bee cluster on frames. It need to be some frame which lift inner cover up about 1/2 inch.

Normal hive eats patty 0,5 per week.

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BEE C
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2007, 06:20:04 AM »

Thats hilarious finsky, that someone in Finland reintroduces me to the new and improved BC government apiculture site.... grin
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Cindi
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2007, 08:26:57 AM »

Steve, I have never been taught in the "wintering the bees" seminars that I have taken, (which have been 3) that pollen patty should not be fed.  I don't think that it at all would be necessary.  The bees have spent the entire spring and summer collecting pollen and probably would have lots of pollen stores to go into winter with.

Also remember, they are shutting down the brood rearing processes for winter for a time.  The do not require an over abundance of pollen during that time.  Now when the brood rearing begins after the winter queen rest, then they need the lots of pollen again.  Begin to feed the pollen patty.

Does that make sense?  Think about it, it does to me.

Ya, the size of my pollen patties is honking big too. I measure out both my hands the pollen mixture then I put it on some wax paper, squish it down a bit, add the top paper and then roll pin it flat.  It is enormous, but it does't take the bees long to eat it up.

 Last year I did not use a spacer like I see in Finsky's picture so that the inner cover sits above the patty.  I think that was a mistake because the bees could not get on top of the patty to eat, they would have had to eat it from the sides.  They still ate it all up.  I am wondering if they can get on the top of it, that they might eat them up faster and I would have to apply more frequently.  A year of keeping records, as I do, and then comparing last year to this years, during the winter months when there is not much outside to do.  This year I am going to use that type of device to allow the bees to get on top of the patty too to eat.  We'll see what comes. 


The pollen that covers everything?  Oh ya, what a nightmare!!!!  That pollen even flies into my kitchen and gets on to the floor.  I am a person that loves fresh air, and when the sunny days of spring begin, my doors and windows are open to allow the freshness of the spring air flow, to clear my house of the winter air (that only gets cleared when people enter and exit the house).  Oh the days of summer, open doors, open windows.  Ooops!!  Got lot in a beautiful thought.

This pollen that you speak about Steve, I know EXACTLY what you mean.  It comes from many, many and probably almost all of our trees around here.  I actually do not know which are the biggest pollen trees, but I think the maple species and alder come first to mind.  I think that the alder, maple species, cottonwood, beech, cedar, pine, spruce, hemlock, (and myriads more) all contribute to this pollen that is everywhere.  It is beautiful, the aromas that come with the springtime.  This pollen I know you talk about is certainly "thick".  My bedroom patio floor I always wash off, using the rainwater as the liquid.  I like to keep this patio clean, so I use a squeegy mop.  It is surprising the colour of the water that is squished out, brilliant greeny, yellow.  Ya, there is a lot of pollen.  Haven't noticed it yet bigtime, but I know it will be coming soon.I am glad that I do not have allergies, it would be a total bad thing living so close to the bush and POLLEN.

Steve, wait until you see my burgundy beech tree that is down near my poool.  It is the most beautiful shade tree that you could ever imagine.  It is close to the pool and on those hot, summer days, it is a gathering point, to drink our drinks (beer is best!!!) and watch the kids in the pool (and sometimes our little pittie that loves the water).  He can't stand it sometimes and flies right in there, water dog for sure.   If you come over in the summertime, guaranteed you will want to take a swim.  It is 8 feet deep end, 3 feet shallow.  A great source of cool refreshment in the summertime.

Greatest of days.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Finsky
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2007, 08:38:59 AM »

Steve, I have never been taught in the "wintering the bees" seminars that I have taken, (which have been 3) that pollen patty should be fed.  I don't think that it at all would be necessary.  The bees have spent the entire spring and summer collecting pollen and probably would have lots of pollen stores to go into winter with.

I raised 6 nucs with patty and electrict heating but hives were really in bad condition in spring. Development was really fast in nucs. Nuc is not able to gather nature pollen and patty stuff is not god enough for winter bees. Our main teacher who has hundreds of hives uses pollen frames in nuc rearing and he told that he had noticed any problems with wintering.

Italian bee uses to consume it's pollen store in fall. That is why I feed them.  Hives are relly short of pollen in winter. Our last pollen plant is fireweed and it has quite light pollen. Bees need to consume it over double compared to average pollen.



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Cindi
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2007, 09:02:01 AM »

I made a type in reply #13, I have amended it, the typo is in italics.  The word I inadvertently ommited was "not".  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2007, 07:06:03 PM »

I thought that when the temperature drops in fall that brood rearing stops?  Even if a colony had frames of pollen they would only use what they needed and not be prompted into rearing brood??? This years winter bees came as a surprise to me.  Both hives populations reduced after the main blackberry flow, and the bees seemed to start bringing in a lot of pollen.  Then a few weeks after both hives began to have massive egg laying.  I remember being concerned at the time because I thought it was unnatural and due to queen problems.  I thought at the time that they had requeened themselves and were trying to catch up for lost time...Looking back on it though, I think they had just been going through a slowdown due to natural nectar availability, and then the huge buildup of numbers for winter populations.  I have never wintered bees before, and I am just assuming, but if this is how an average colony looks population wise, with a fall buildup, then timing patties with the natural collecting of pollen would not buildup unnaturally their population but enhance it right?  That was my question I guess.

I like finskys picture of the rim so bees can access the patty from top and bottom, I'm going to make some of those too.  Makes sense.

I took off the patty over the small hive until it gets warmer finsky.  There were three bees on it, that were dopy and I put back into the frames.  I accidentally bumped the hive putting the inner cover back on and heard the cluster below buzz loudly so I know the cluster is not so small, and may just be sitting low in the bottom. 

Cindi, I love swimming, always have, especially being stuck in bee suit on an Aug day.  After working with ron during the day I loved it when I didn't have to work at night and could go directly to the lake.  I am not a fan of the heat, winter is my fav season.  suspended in water with some liquid refreshment is a great way to deal with the heat.


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Cindi
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2007, 10:53:46 PM »

Steve, if I am not mistaken the blackberry nectar flow occurs beginning of August or so?  I didn't keep any records of that this year, I don't think.  The bees slowed down.  But when you saw them bringing in pollen, that meant I am sure that they were going to get back into raising some more brood.  Which they did.  That was excellent because you want those late summer bees to hatch to be the winter bees.  The summer bees all die off and if you have lots of brood in the early fall, you will have LOTS of bees to keep the cluster warm in wintertime.  That is excellent.

The queen probably slows down her laying around the beginning to middle of October around here,  I would venture.   That is why it was advised to do O.A. trickle around December 1.  There would positively be no brood present at that time.  This is a question to ask Ron when we go to the "revive the hive" seminar on Saturday.  Don't forget to ask this question.  Make a note.  Greatest of days.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2007, 11:33:54 PM »

Steve, if I am not mistaken the blackberry nectar flow occurs beginning of August or so? 

In my garden blackberries start to rippen in August.
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Cindi
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2007, 08:15:28 AM »

OK, so I got off my lazy butt and checked my flower, fruit and vegie records for last year.  No record on blackberry flowering, but record of fruit set.

ALTHOUGH, in 2005, the blackberries began to flower on June 1.  This past summer, my records indicate that the blackberries were actually RIPENING on August 10.  Our climate is pretty much constant, as is many others I am sure.

So, in our climate, blackberries generally begin flowering June 1 and ripen around August 10.  I actually did not realize that it took so long from flower to fruit ripening.

We love blackberries here.  We have two species, each quite different.  The first to ripen is what I call the round leafed variety.  The fruit is loosely formed with lots of juice.  The second variety ripens about 3 weeks later, I call it the ragged leafed variety.  It has tighter fruit and less juice.  Both have a totally different flavour.  I prefer the ragged leafed variety for flavour, it is a deeper flavour.

If I create liquid products from blackberries, I prefer the round-leafed one, if I am making products that require the pulp, I use the ragged-leafed one.  Two blackberries, two totally different purposes.

With many, many of the fruits in our area I extract the juices and bottle for winter drinks, jellies and smoothies.  These are at my fingertips anytime I want a sweet taste of summer, and the kids love the smoothies before they go to school.  It is always a mystery what kind of fruit is in the drink and it is a test for all the kids to guess what is in it today.  I also put in fresh fruit to throw them off a little.  It is fun.  Greatest of days.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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