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Author Topic: beer and wine waste yeast in pollen patties  (Read 6437 times)
Markalbob
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« on: January 30, 2007, 04:26:48 PM »

So, I see yeast is popular in pollen patties.....I brew at home anyway, and typically when you make beer, you you get at teh bottom of your 8-gallon bucket 1/2 inch or more of "trub" you rack off of.  Trub is settled yeast as well as any protein that settled out from the cold break when you boiled your wort "unfermented "pre-beer" as well as a bit of hop leaf.  Any reason to suspect this, mixed with sugar, wouldn't make an excellent pollen patty?
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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2007, 08:44:51 PM »

This begs the question: Do or can bees become intoxicated?  Does flying while drunk reduce the production of a hive?  What happens if the queen becomes enhibreated? 
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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2007, 09:33:31 PM »

I am fairly convinced that bees can get drunk.  I saw an episode of Mythbusters where vodka was sprayed on bees as a potential bee-killer ( Cry).  Fortunately, the bees survived and only showed what looked like signs of intoxication.  Rock on!
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« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2007, 12:48:19 AM »

So, I see yeast is popular in pollen patties.....I brew at home anyway,

We may bye yeast from storehouse 1 $/lbs. HOw much you have yeast in your can bottom?
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BEE C
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« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2007, 04:15:24 AM »

now thats my kind of go green save the planet recycling...reuse :mrgreen:I'd love to hear if anyone knows if this is possible.  I suspect there would be byproducts which would not be good.  Is active yeast ok to use in patties? I bought debittered brewers yeast for my patties, can other yeasts be used?  My mentor doesn't even use yeast in his recipe.  I know I should look for my copy of fat bees skinny bees, but I'm lazy.  Anyone?
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Cindi
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« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2007, 09:46:24 AM »

Steve, if your mentor doesn't use brewers yeast, what does he use?  Did he give you a recipe?  Cindi
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« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2007, 10:06:13 AM »

i've been searching a lot lately about yeast. and so..i think it would be ok to use "waste" yeast. this "waste" yeast is dead, but, it's still rich in proteins and since you take it out relatively soon it should be still rich in vitamins..that's it. i persume this, since i found on some "bio" page that you can buy nutritient yeast-dead dry yeast...forgot why exactly it's better than normal but...
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BEE C
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2007, 04:16:54 PM »

cindi,
my mentor is ron.  He told me I don't need to use brewers yeast if I am using pollen for patties.  He said he didn't use breweres yeast for this last batch of patties he made up.  Thats why I was curious, because I didn't write down his recipe from class, and the textbook we got lists brewers yeast as a pollen substitute ingredient.  I guess my question is, is there any benefit to adding breweres yeast to pollen based patties?  Ron gets a mischievous grin and says he is going to hold a seminar later on how to make up pollen patties with his secret recipe.  Hes such a joker at times.  I got the impression from ron that there is no benefit to adding BY to pollen based patties.  Just wondering what people here thought.  If I don't have to use brewers yeast it saves me money, ron has 1000 plus hives so the luxury of extra ingredients isn't really econonmically viable.  I would be really interested to know if people on here have recipes that they love and swear by, and what those recipes were? Guess its poll time.
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2007, 06:07:35 PM »

Pollen is the best.  Everything else is an attempt to match the nutrition of pollen.

Brewers yeast is a source of protien that is close to what pollen has.  Since my bees are often collecting grain dust from the chicken feed or the horse feed, I can't say that it's a bad idea to put out something more nutritious, like yeast.
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2007, 08:36:41 PM »

Steve, OK got new information now.  The pollen that bees eat that they have gathered is honey/pollen.  That is the natural way.

We add brewers yeast, along with pollen when making the patties.  Maybe it is not necessary at all, but it certainly cannot hurt for sure.

I need to get more information too.  I am wondering if the pollen patty would not be strong enough consistency if it did not contain brewers yeast and fall down between the frames, to the ground or on the solid bottom board if one is using that.  I know the wax paper the patty is between holds it in place to some degree.  But maybe pollen and the syrup can be made really stiff as well. 

On an agenda to gather information.  Great day.  Cindi
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« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 09:09:56 PM »

cindi,
I went back and looked at the Australian beekeeping nutritional manual that Finsky had posted a while back (Fat bees, Skinny bees).  The manual is a really great, and lengthy document that answered my questions.  Brewers yeast adds b complex vitamins, especially good if the pollen has degraded a bit.  I'm going to make some patties up tonight.  I am going to add brewers yeast because I picked up a few small bags of it, and might as well use it.  I was thinking of adding more pollen and less brewers yeast to the receipe you posted earlier.  Having never made my own patties before I didn't really think about whether the pollen would condense and stick together enough.  I bought some wax paper and worse come to worse I'll lay it on top of the frames and add the mixture.  I guess if I alter the water content I could get a mix that will work?  The FBSB document had pictures of raw mixtures being fed bulk.  Interesting notes on soy flour as a bulk supplement.  Anyway i'm off to mix up patties.  Steve.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 09:25:59 PM »

You can make just pollen and honey into patties and it works fine.  You need to press any patties between waxed paper and they should be thick enough to hold together.  Add more pollen if it's too thin.  Add more honey if it isn't stuck together.
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2007, 05:50:24 PM »

pollen + honey = bee bread

Feeding a mixture of pollen substitute mixed with honey works the same just not as well.
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Markalbob
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« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2007, 09:36:44 AM »

hi,

So here's another question--if I had enough pollen, yeast may be something of a nonissue.  I see lots on irradiated pollen, other stuff seems to imply folks don't bother--does anyone make patties without irradiating, just using pollen collected frompollen traps?  Do you have AFB problems?

Mark
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« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2007, 08:14:56 PM »

>does anyone make patties without irradiating, just using pollen collected from pollen traps?

Yes.

>  Do you have AFB problems?

Never.
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2007, 01:18:18 AM »

Brewers yeast adds b complex vitamins, especially good if the pollen has degraded a bit.  I'm going to make some patties up tonight.  I am going to add brewers yeast because I picked up a few small bags of it, and might as well use it. 

Three yeast are mentioned as pollen substitute: brewing, torula, baker's and xxx which is from cheese industry.  They are as good but in large scale it is only price question. Berewing yeast is dried up with heat and some votamins have died like C. But just add riboflavin.

In my country torula is not delivered.

When you have  a couple of hives, it is better to take what you get from supermarket. You get soya flour there too.  Don,t make it more difficult. These are best stuffs. And use fructose too because it keeps patty moist.  Keep sugar content 50%.

Baker's yeas is good because it is living and it has vitamins. Easy to get. If you use soft baker's yeast, then use soya flour because it takes away extra water. Soya flour has exellent nutritient values.  Baker's yeas is cultivated for human consumption. It is safe to use.

You must make huge amount of beer if you want to get yeast to bees from that system. Then you will never se a clear day.

Whole system is very easy but needs experience that patty is just good for bees, not too soft or hard.

To use to bees what ever stuff what comes into mind, I cannot se any idea in it. People have feeded bees with what ever. Nothing to be found any more.

Best pollen substitutes were tested in laboratory USA 1977.

.
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2007, 05:02:10 AM »

Hey finsky,
I ended up going over the article Fat bees Skinny bees, and using Cindis recipe but altering it slightly.  FBSB said that pollen was best, so I added more.  The article also said brewers yeast adds vitamin b complex if the pollen has degraded a bit and those are the vitamins that get lost.  So the recipe I used was 5 cups brewers yeast, 7 cups sugar, 4 cups water, and 5 cups pollen.  FBSB said that dry sugar was best to not stimulate the hive to brood production.  I guess the sugar in pollen patties acts like that? Or does it stimulate?  There are plenty of stored honey in both hives at this point.  My mentor said to hold off on feeding small colonies patties, but the article said to do so.  What would you recommend for a small overwintered colony finsky, patty or no patty?  I went ahead and fed a small patty to the smaller hive, because it made sense to me that if its smaller because of spring dwindle due to nosema protein would help their immune systems, until I can add some medicated feed (fumagilin B) when the weather warms enough to give stimulating sugar.  I also added insulation to the small hive at the same time to help them keep heat in, so they would hopefully be more able to break cluster.  Our temperature daytime in my apiary has been 9-12 degrees the last few days while I've done this.  The small hive is still dropping wax cappings onto the bottom board so I know they are eating the stores daily at around the same amount.  However I don't want to poke my nose into the hive and only quickly added a patty.  The larger hive cluster was in the upper brood box , while the smaller hive I didn't see the cluster, I am just assuming its there by the evidence of cappings dropped.
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Finsky
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2007, 05:53:32 AM »

  FBSB said that dry sugar was best to not stimulate the hive to brood production. 



This must be missunderstanding. In some circumtancies in Australia it is possible it they get pollen but not nectar. In early spring the help is very small.


Quote
  My mentor said to hold off on feeding small colonies patties, but the article said to do so. 


In cold weather things are different. My long experience is that when I feed small colonies 3-5 frames occupied, they often get difficult chalkbrood. I think hat they are not able to keep their expanded brood are warm during cold night and during windy weather. My chalk brood hives have often in windy site wher  wind blows into entrance.

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What would you recommend for a small overwintered colony finsky, patty or no patty? 


I give myself but I do not recommend. Wait that big hives have enough new bees and then give frame or two of emerging bees and small hive starts fine. But dont give i they are not able to keep brood area warm. Brood will die.


Hive insulating: My experience is that biggest hives need insulation as well. I have used 4 years 15W terrarium heater cables on bottom boars and results are marvellous. Patty feeding + warming give 3-fold results in spring build up. Results will be seen when new nurser bees start to feed brood. That is the point what people cannot understand. grin

Quote
I went ahead and fed a small patty to the smaller hive, because it made sense to me that if its smaller because of spring dwindle due to nosema protein would help their immune systems,


It does not help dwindling because nosema has viloted bees' gut already. But when you give frame of emerging bees, so colony gets healty nurser bees. It have mostly helped in my hives.

Quote
The small hive is still dropping wax cappings onto the bottom board so I know they are eating the stores daily at around the same amount. 



If they stop eating and are dead, you cannot do nothing.  Smiley

Quote
  The larger hive cluster was in the upper brood box , while the smaller hive I didn't see the cluster, I am just assuming its there by the evidence of cappings dropped.


Perhaps another hive has too much vain room and you should take it away like this


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BEE C
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2007, 06:40:10 AM »

Thanks finsky,
Chapter three of FBSB said "dry sugar is the best form of providing sugar without stimulating the colony to any significant extent".  I was curious about the influence of the proportion of sugar in the pollen patty, whether it would stimulate if the proportion was high? or if it acted like dry sugar feeding and was minimized.  You answered my question in another post, that it reduces spoiling of the patty.
Your responses about feeding patties to small colonies makes sense.  I don't really want to reduce the hive size for the smaller hive because I'm worried about the effect of opening it for too long, I thought that would be the bigger threat.  I may yank the patty out of it tomorrow though.  The larger hive instantly started to hum with bees chewing the patty.  So I'm off to get insulation boards for the larger hive tomorrow.  I didn't insulate for the winter cold, because its so mild here, but I can see how the spring buildup can make them catch cold coming in and out of cluster with the temperature fluctuations.  I have insulation boards over the inner cover already but I guess it might be a good idea to have spring time insulation for my area.  Thanks for esplaning it.
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2007, 08:51:46 AM »

I looked what does it mean that dry sugar not stimulate brood rearing.

The question was sugar feeding for winter.  It is very different question than accelerate brooding in spring. 

But to give dry sugar for winter in our climate is out of question. All feed with 66% sugar syrup. I have not heard any other systems.

But when we discuss how to accelerate brooding in spring, it is better that beekeepers are far from each other. They are quite furious with their opinions  grin

But I may say that we just got 2 new beekeeping books and there was not even a term "honeybee nutrition" in the book. That is really burning issue.

Spring feeding is widely recommenced in Canada. It helps to get early yield from many plants. And if you have wintered canola fields, patty feeding is effective to catch huge yields.

This is in large scale in Canada http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/default.htm





.

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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2007, 11:13:53 AM »

I have a free source for brewer's yeast after the beer is made.  The brewery normally just puts it down the drain...it's in a slurry form.  The owner said get all you want.. 

I read thru this post and maybe I missed it but I didn't see where that type of used yeast was endorsed.

Finsky said:
Quote
You must make huge amount of beer if you want to get yeast to bees from that system. Then you will never se a clear day.
  LOL - I can't decide if that's an endorsement or not...I think he's tried it before  grin. I hear ya Finsky...!

Since it'll be in slurry form I guess you could mix it with sugar syrup to feed them that way in a top feeder - maybe 2:1 yeast slurry to sugar or 1:1 yeast slurry to sugar...? You use it with soy flour to make patties also...

Any advise.....thanks.



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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2007, 11:29:24 AM »

Yeah I know what you mean about getting the answers. I think we should have a new policy around here. When there is a question being asked..... Like this one here....... Answer it first and then go about your explanations of the assumptions you've made about what was being asked.

After the beer is made can the yeast bee used for the bees.... Yes ... No... Seems so easy an answer don't you think?
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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2007, 11:48:20 AM »


Since it'll be in slurry form I guess you could mix it with sugar syrup to feed them that way in a top feeder - maybe 2:1 yeast slurry to sugar or 1:1 yeast slurry to sugar...? You use it with soy flour to make patties also...

Any advise.....thanks.

In USA it has been developed juice like protein milk to bees during some years.  It is secret recipe I have heard. It is sure that if you give yeast syrup in feeder, I will not succeed. Protein content is too small. And what about if bees store it in combs for summer?

To Jerrymac: You can of course give yeast but how clever it is. I feeded dry yeast to hives  2 pound per hive during two months. As wet yeast it is much. 

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Jerrymac
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2007, 11:55:13 AM »

To Jerrymac: You can of course give yeast but how clever it is. I feeded dry yeast to hives  2 pound per hive during two months. As wet yeast it is much. 

I'm confused, was that a yes or a no?
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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2007, 12:23:11 PM »

Mmmmm.  I think it was a " yes " for me that I can use the left over brewer's yeast but there's not enough protein left in it to do any good.  But what does that mean...?

Finsky...you're too smart for our own good..... huh

I'll do some research on the protein level in left over brewer's yeast.  I would think it would still be a pretty high %....   
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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2007, 12:37:15 PM »

My original thought was "here's actual, active yeast, rather than freeze-dried.  In with them is some small amount of precipitated protein, as well as a bit of some other complex sugars beyond glucose."

Seeing as how 1.  Brewers yeast is apparently quite cheap at feedmills and 2.  You can use your own pollen, don't need only irradiated, the above question is much less significant....although I still can't help wondering if it would be better for the bees--maybe next winter I'll try a side-by-side......

And Finsky, I only brew a bit, but only hope to have 2-4 hives, also....so the thinking was I wouldn't NEED a huge amount of yeast.  I'm new, could very well be wrong, but that was the initial logic. 
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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2007, 01:17:48 PM »

Here's some information on " spent Brewers' yeast ".... it falls into a catagory called Distiller feeds used to feed livestock.  It looks like it might be what we're looking for.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/meCh6.html

and another..

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGA/agap/frg/afris/Data/468.HTM




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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2007, 01:25:58 PM »


I'm confused, was that a yes or a no?

NO, in Texas you need no yeast. You have all the time pollen enough.
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2007, 01:29:38 PM »

Mmmmm.  I think it was a " yes " for me that I can use the left over brewer's yeast but there's not enough protein left in it to do any good.  But what does that mean...?

Finsky...you're too smart for our own good..... huh
 

You should give to bees a stuff where raw protein content is over 20% like in average pollen. If you dilute it with something, it has not.
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2007, 01:34:46 PM »

NO, in Texas you need no yeast. You have all the time pollen enough.

Maybe South Texas but not up in the northern parts.

Now I will try one more time,

After the beer is made can the yeast be used for the bees? Yes or No.

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« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2007, 01:38:19 PM »

Hey folks!

I’ve been lurking, reading and learning here for a few months now. Thanks to everyone for their valuable input.

Since I am also a home brewer (and soon to be mead maker), I would like to give my input on the leftover yeast issue…

First of all, as far as the quantity goes, I can get almost a quart of nice thick yeast slurry after a 5 gallon batch of beer. That’s quite a bit of yeast, and if I need to drink extreme quantities to get more, so be it!

Next thing, this isn’t dead, waste yeast, it is very healthy, viable, vitamin rich yeast that simply ran out of food and dropped out of suspension. I usually reuse yeast for multiple batches.

Now, this means that it will consume any fermentable sugar it will find. I would not want to mix live hungry yeast with patties containing sugar or honey since the yeast will consume these and leave nothing but CO2 and alcohol for the bees. You may end up with puffy pollen cakes instead, similar to bread dough when it rises.

To kill the yeast (what a shame!), I would heat it in a pan to 170* for 15 minutes.

Hope this is somewhat useful.

-John

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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2007, 02:21:56 PM »

Look at this... 

Cotton Seed meal used for a protein supplement in animal feeds.  This is almost in a talc form - very finely ground.  40% crude protein content..... it might be something we can use.  This is readily avaliable at feed stores all over. 

http://www.admworld.com/laen/ahn/vegetableprotein.asp

One more time for JerryMac...

Quote
After the beer is made can the yeast be used for the bees? Yes or No.


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« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2007, 03:17:58 PM »

Look at this... 

Cotton Seed meal used for a protein supplement in animal feeds.  This is almost in a talc form - very finely ground.  40% crude protein content..... it might be something we can use.  This is readily avaliable at feed stores all over. 


Where you have seen it recommended to honey bees? 
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« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2007, 05:29:58 PM »

Here is a place that mentions cotton seed oil for bee feed

http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/Beefeeds.html
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« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2007, 06:16:48 PM »


Scroll down this link about half way - look at the section " Background and prior Art ".  It make note of using several seed meals as substitutes for pollen - cottonseed meal is one of those mentioned..

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3995338.html

Finsky... What do you think...?  Any ideas on a recipe for patties using cottonseed meal. 
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Steve in SC


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« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2007, 11:57:19 PM »


In USA it has been developed juice like protein milk to bees during some years.  It is secret recipe I have heard.

I believe I know the protein milk you speak of.  I have it, it is called "Caspian Solution."  It is secret recipe.

Is this what you speak of?  Curious.  Greatest of days.  Cindi
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2007, 12:44:00 AM »


Finsky... What do you think...?  Any ideas on a recipe for patties using cottonseed meal. 


Seed oil is oil. I found that in many recipes.

Protein  depends totally on the constitution of amino acids how close it is the need of bees.

I may find in researches that some amino acids are limiting factors in cotton seed cale  "The limiting amino acids lysine, methionine, cystine, threonine and arginine  "  http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/ARTICLE/AGRIPPA/659_en-06.htm

FINE SUMMARY OF PROTEIN DIETS  AND EXPALANTION WE NEED  http://mark.asci.ncsu.edu/Nutrition/NutritionGuide/Protein%20and%20amino%20acids/protaa.htm


Soybean meal is usually the most economical source of high quality protein available to North Carolina swine producers. It is the only plant protein that compares with animal protein that compares with animal protein in terms of quality of amino acid content and ratio and ban be sued as the only protein source in most swine diets.
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SteveSC
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2007, 08:41:49 AM »

Finsky..

With the above information would you use the soybean meal as a pollen substitute..?  It looks like it's favored over the cottonseed meal for swine.  I just wonder how that equates to bee nutritition.

 
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« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2007, 04:36:43 AM »

Finsky..

.. for swine.  I just wonder how that equates to bee nutritition.



I do not going to explain these things. You should study what means essential amicoacids, protein syntesis, optimal nutrition of bees. They are all in internet. Protein is not important but composition of aminoacids. It is said here if you have basic knowledge. Quite few have and never mind if you don't  have.  http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/nutrition_supplements.htm

.
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2007, 11:16:44 AM »

Quote
I do not going to explain these things. You should study what means essential amicoacids, protein syntesis, optimal nutrition of bees. They are all in internet. Protein is not important but composition of aminoacids. It is said here if you have basic knowledge. Quite few have and never mind if you don't  have. 

I understand your point that is if you had to learn the information on your own so should we all. 

I thought this board was for all beekeepers regardless of yrs. of experience to share and learn from each other.  I've done alot of research in the short time I've kept bees - amino acids - pollen subs. - pollen patties  not being  subjects I've gotten to yet but I will.  You've had 40+ yrs. to learn and accumulate information, I can only assume some of the information you know you want to keep to yourself.  That's ok  - that's your business - I repect it.

You're asked alot of questions on this board as are a few others - MB - Brian - Ted - that's because ya'll know many times what the rest of us know. I nor anyone else wants to make a fatal mistake for our bees due to lack of knowledge.  Thanks any previous information you offered Finsky......it's appreciated.

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Steve in SC


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« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2007, 11:45:11 AM »

.
Never mind SteveSC . Nutrition and protein seems to be very difficult to undertand. I may explain long story and next guestion will show that nothing went through. I have tried many times. tongue
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