Starting Over Advice Needed

[Jerrymac]

My question for Finsky is this,

You have been keeping bees for 45 years. Have you not changed anything in all those years? Do you still do the exact same things as you did those first years? Is the terrarium heaters been researched at some university somewhere to prove that it does what you say it does or are we all suppose to just take your word for it? 

[Jerrymac]

One must ponder why feral bees succumbed to v.mite when they use small or natural cell size?

As it has been pointed out many times. Not all the ferals died out. They are making a come back. The reason for the massive loss of the ferals are many and not all of them died because of mites. The ones that did were possibly escapees from domestic bees and they were not fully regressed. Ferals robbed out the failing domestic hives and carried more mites than the hive could handle back to the feral hive.

[Finsky]

My question for Finsky is this,

You have been keeping bees for 45 years. Have you not changed anything in all those years?

I am really tired to answer stupid quenstion    It is enough to me if I answer to good questions.

[Jerrymac]

I am really tired to answer stupid quenstion    It is enough to me if I answer to good questions.

Yeah its terrible when you methods are questioned

[kathyp]

Not all the ferals died out

valid points.  question?  are hobby bee keeper willing to allow hives to die in order to "regress" them over a period of time, or to hope that the hives will produce mite resistant bees?

a better solution, it seems to me, would be to watch research and requeen with proven mite resistant queens (when they are cost effective)  perhaps that is MB's secret?  

it would be a shame for new beekeeper to get the impression that going natural can give them mite resistance.  they will not know the difference until they find all their bees dead.

[Jerrymac]

If you look here http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm you will find he says this

"The other change I've done in my beekeeping, is to capture feral swarms and start raising queens from these. These are darker bees that seem more acclimatized to my location and have been surviving on their own with no chemicals at all. I've been raising and selling the queens."

[kathyp]

i have read that.  his queens are probably part of the secret to his success.  how many generations of breeding does it take to make MY hive mite resistant, providing his queens are the secret?  it certainly would not be the first generation.  i'd have to breed into my hive the mite resistance, and that would mean several generations and several generations of new queens in my own hive.....and controlling the breeding so that the queens bred with drones from mite resistance stock.  otherwise, you breed the good out of the queen instead of breeding the good into the hive.

[Devbee]

From my perspective as a new-bee, it seems like all parties in discussion here could be correct because they are speaking from their experience in their particular part of the world with their species and disposition of bees using their techniques, all of which differ from one another (slightly to greatly).

I am going to follow Michael Bush's recommendations to start with because they resound with my desire to keep bees with as little antibiotics as possible.  I realize my bees may have problems or fail, not necessarily because Mr. Bush's recommendations are bad but possibly because of other factors, like my inexperience, or the part of the world I'm in, or my bees.

However, I hope to keep learning and raise my bees as organically (naturally?) as possible.  I may need to use some treatments, and I do not close the door on that.

In short, what works for some beekeepers may not work for others because there are so many different factors, though trends can be seen which may apply to all to one degree or another (varroa mites as an example), and these are important to understand and adapt to your specific case.

Godspeed to you in your beekeeping!  My first bees are coming in 2 months and a week, and I'm excited.

[Jerrymac]

I will ask the question in the opposite direction. If all these ferals died off then how is it so many of us are catching so many ferals? (not just swarms but established hives)

[KONASDAD]

I will ask the question in the opposite direction. If all these ferals died off then how is it so many of us are catching so many ferals? (not just swarms but established hives)

Can't answer that one as I have only seen one feral hive of honey bees ever, in my area. They looked like Italians. That was last month when a construction crew cleared a small area w/ trees over a hundred yrs old. I have always kept flowers and gardens and have never seen a honey bee until I put out my own hives. All i ever had on my property were bumble bees and yellow jackets until now.

[TwT]

i have read that.  his queens are probably part of the secret to his success.  how many generations of breeding does it take to make MY hive mite resistant, providing his queens are the secret?  it certainly would not be the first generation.  I'd have to breed into my hive the mite resistance, and that would mean several generations and several generations of new queens in my own hive.....and controlling the breeding so that the queens bred with drones from mite resistance stock.  otherwise, you breed the good out of the queen instead of breeding the good into the hive.

all that might not be necessary, mike probably got his queens from feral hives he captured just like me, I have feral hives that are 3 years old and I am not on small cell or do I treat them in any way, just lucky I guest, but when removing a feral hive you can tell if the hive is a old hive that has been there for quiet a few years or if it could have been a swarm that just recently moved into a old location, comb can tell a lot.... about all the hives I removed from homes are old building were all on old combs, so that means the hive hasn't been treated and still alive... just my 2 pennies worth....

[kathyp]

the key to success has got to be controlled breeding.  i can't do that here.  to many beekeepers around and to many other bees.  a mite resistant queen would end up being wasted.

until the breeding of mite resistant bees is perfected and wide spread.  most of us will not have the ability to keep mite resistant bees.  that's why i didn't spend the extra money on Russians this year.  my Russian hive ended up mixed by the end of one year. 

[TwT]

the key to success has got to be controlled breeding.  i can't do that here.  to many beekeepers around and to many other bees.  a mite resistant queen would end up being wasted.

until the breeding of mite resistant bees is perfected and wide spread.  most of us will not have the ability to keep mite resistant bees.  that's why i didn't spend the extra money on Russians this year.  my Russian hive ended up mixed by the end of one year. 

True, but you got to start some where, if no one every starts then you will never have mite resistant bee's, remember your Russian drones breed to there queens also then their half Russian queens breed to your queens ect. and after some years you might have a good chance of having good resistant bee's........ got to start somewhere or it will never happen.........

[Trot]

Just to show that all in Scandinavia is not poison upon poison and we won't even go to the rest of Europe.
Some, of course do, cause medication is the only course they know how to turn a quick buck...

http://www.beesource.com/pov/johnsen/bcmay2005.htm
 

[michelleb]

My take on all this is that whether or not small cell works for Michael (or anybody), it's more urgent to genetically select for mite-resistant production queens, rather than depend upon the smaller bee/shorter development/less time for mite to develop approach.

Having said that, there needs to be a distinction between not treating colonies prophylactically (sp?) and not treating already affected colonies. Who wants their bees to go rob out an "organically" mite-infested, failing neighborhing yard, bringing back more mites than they can handle?

A beekeeper I know said just last week that nobody's yard is an isolated yard. While that may be extreme, it's something to think about. Especially for me, as I'm hoping to use my (ahem) "isolated" yard as a minimal-treatment zone.

[TwT]

now if they are mite resistant bee's I wouldn't worry about the number they brought back, they should be able to control if they are really resistant, you can go out to any of my hives and see mites on the bottom boards, I know my bee's have mites but they have dealt with them so for. I had a hive 2 years ago show signs of DWV and that hive is still going, no sign of it this past year in any hives so maybe I have something worth having.....

[Michael Bush]

"If you're not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-tolerant bees, then you're part of the problem. Every time you allow drones or swarms to issue from a colony that owes its survival to a miticide application, you're hindering the natural process of evolution toward mite-tolerant bees."  from Breeding Mite-Fighting Bees by Randy Oliver.

[TwT]

Hey MB, i MUST HAVE MADE A POST YOU WOULD AGREE WITH?

[Jerrymac]

TwT

I thought he was agreeing with you there.

[Michael Bush]

>Hey MB, i MUST HAVE MADE A POST YOU WOULD AGREE WITH?
>I thought he was agreeing with you there.

So did I.  I certainly wasn't DISAGREEING with you.