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Author Topic: VINAGER VAPORIZER  (Read 4074 times)
Cindi
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2007, 09:51:23 PM »

All I have to say is that I reside in Canada.  I feel very grateful that Oxalic acid is approved for use here, as it is in Europe.  One day it may be approved for use in the U.S. and there would not be fines for using it (if caught). 

It is completely safe and effective to use in the beehives, as long as the instructions are followed properly.  Treating when NO BROOD is present, i.e. onstart of winter, once the late summer bees have all hatched and the queen is not laying.  The treatment is a proven winner to treat the darned mite that we are all plagued with (well, most of us).  It does not harm the adult bees.  This is known fact.

The Oxalic acid sugar trickle or vapourizer system only takes a couple of moments to apply, it is quick, efficient and again as I said, non-toxic to the honeybees.  Oxalic acid is found in nature, I'm sure that is common knowledge.

The Oxalic acid found in the U.S. that is used for wood bleach, etc. is not the specific type that is approved for use in our countries.  I do not know the difference, but treating the hives with that type of oxalic acid would probably be very detrimental to bee colonies.

Formic acid in the spring, oxalic acid in the early winter.  Finsky will agree with this.  Great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2007, 12:07:47 AM »

 
Cindi;  I'm glad that you have something to fight the varroa mite. But from what you say you cannot use oxalic acid while brood is present. Can you use it when you are collecting surplus honey? What about formic acid? Can you use it whenever mites are a threat?  I'm not trying to be a smart A-- I'm asking because i don't know.

Unlike some parts of this country where the queen stops laying for a period from late fall to early Feb. It is not that way in my area. It is normal to have brood year round. Not as much this time of year from  1/2 to 1-1/2 frames in each colony.

I can vaporize with vinegar anytime the bee cluster is broken. While brood is present and  While collecting surplus honey. I'm not contaminating the comb in my brood chambers or the comb in my honey supers  25% vinegar vapor does not harm the bees the honey or the beekeeper. Can you honestly and truthfuly make that statement? There is an old saying in the bee biz-what ever it takes, do it. If it works for you do it. An old beekeeper friend said "the only consistency in beekeeping is the inconsistency in beekeeping.
I have found this to be very true.   Charlie
 
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Cindi
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2007, 09:07:06 AM »

Charlie, nice to hear your response, no offence taken.
 
<Cindi;  I'm glad that you have something to fight the varroa mite. But from what you say you cannot use oxalic acid while brood is present. Can you use it when you are collecting surplus honey? What about formic acid? Can you use it whenever mites are a threat?  I'm not trying to be a smart A-- I'm asking because i don't know.>

Oxalic acid should not be used when brood is present, correct.  It will kill the brood, but not affect the honeybees.

No, you cannot use it while collecting surplus honey, nor can formic acid be used during honey harvest.

Yes, you can use formic acid whenever mites are a threat.  BUT, you cannot use the honey during this time period.

When formic acid pads are applied to the hive, it is generally used for 21 days and then removed from the hive.  This is generally a sufficient length of time unless there is a very heavy infestation of the mite.

Honestly, I cannot say that if the treatment is done during a honeyflow, if there is a point where the honey would be fit for human consumption, I doubt it.  But that does need further research on my part to become informed.  Thinking about it, maybe if the honey supers were removed and this honey used to feed back to the bees maybe.  Maybe putting a new honey super on would be making space for "CLEAN'  honey that would be considered "human safe".  We have a pretty long honeyflow in my area, so I could see that this is possible.

I am taking a beemasters short course at one of our local universities at the end of this month, and these are questions that I know that I will have answers to.  I will be informed of such for our climate.

It sounds like the vinegar method works for you.  That is good.  This is something that I will be discussing at the course to see what our professors of our bee area basically think of it.  Maybe even it will be something that will be recommended to be implemented, I don't know.  The masters will tell all when I am there.

My intention of keeping the varroa population down in the summer is the early spring management, keeping STRONG and HEALTHY hives.  I have much new wisdom that I have learned over the past few months and feel that I am entering my second summer of beekeeping with incredible new knowledge that when I take the best of all the information, I hope that I will be able to say that I am succeeding with big and healthy colonies.  Bee health is my target, honey is a bonus.

My thoughts about keeping the varroa problem in check is to perform frequent mite counts on the sticky boards.  When I see any elevation in levels, I will apply the icing sugar/garlic powder sprinkle using a flour sifter.  That is my idea that I think will help.

I do not live in an area that keeps an enormous amount of bees, so there will not be a high contamination from other beekeepers bees.  The only "other" bees that I would be worry about would be the wild bees, which I am sure there are many.  I do not let my bees out for pollination.  I will be providing 3 acres or more of extremely high producing nectar/pollen plants for the bees.  This may sound strange, but the seeds that I will sow will provide so much nectar/pollen that I honestly don't think that the bees will have to travel far to get their foraging done.  I could be totally wrong, but watching the bees last year with the 1,000th (or even far more) less amount of plants that I will have this year, they were pretty busy here.

We live in a fairly moist and in summer time, pretty warm climate, so their is generally not an enormous dearth because of drought.  The plants receive lots of moisture, from underground and above ground.  The nectar flows all summer here for the most part.

We'll see, these are my hopes and aspirations.  Great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2007, 09:44:23 AM »


Cindi;  I'm glad that you have something to fight the varroa mite. But from what you say you cannot use oxalic acid while brood is present. Can you use it when you are collecting surplus honey? What about formic acid? Can you use it whenever mites are a threat?  I'm not trying to be a smart A-- I'm asking because i don't know.

Unlike some parts of this country where the queen stops laying for a period from late fall to early Feb. It is not that way in my area. It is normal to have brood year round. Not as much this time of year from  1/2 to 1-1/2 frames in each colony.

I can vaporize with vinegar anytime the bee cluster is broken. While brood is present and  While collecting surplus honey. I'm not contaminating the comb in my brood chambers or the comb in my honey supers  25% vinegar vapor does not harm the bees the honey or the beekeeper. Can you honestly and truthfuly make that statement? There is an old saying in the bee biz-what ever it takes, do it. If it works for you do it. An old beekeeper friend said "the only consistency in beekeeping is the inconsistency in beekeeping.
I have found this to be very true.   Charlie
 


Charlie,

Here is an interesting read, it is just an example of one of the studies that are available from the EU on use of oxalic acid.

This is the kind of information/studies I would like to see on acetic acid.

Quote
I'm not contaminating the comb in my brood chambers or the comb in my honey supers  25% vinegar vapor does not harm the bees the honey or the beekeeper. Can you honestly and truthfuly make that statement?


Can you honestly say that either?  Where are the studies showing this?  How do you know the acetic acid levels aren't higher in your hives/honey/comb? 

I am glad acetic acid is working for you,  but I also dealt with a lot of folks who swore up and down that essential oils where the answer.  Needless to say they weren't the answer for me and I continued to loose hives until I started OA vaporizing.  There is plenty of studies/data available from the EU and many many years of experience with OA. Until there is data available for acetic acid,  most people will be skeptical.  Unfortunately we have all lived thru too many snake oil salesmen.  The fact that the manufacture does not publish any studies, and would file a lawsuit against a beekeeping organization for publishing the results of demo/test just adds to my concern. 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Apis_Newsletter/message/22   

Let's keep in mind that oxalic acid is an organic acid just like acetic acid and naturally occurs in nature.  Vegetables like broccoli, spinach, and rhubarb are high in oxalic acid.

One more time for the record  Wink  I am not looking to get into a peeing match of oxalic vs. acetic (nor is Cindi, I think we are both interested in learning more).  Acetic meets and works for your needs,  and oxalic meets and works for my needs.  I truely don't believe there is one "best" answer for everyone.  I am interested in hearing more about acetic,  but unfortunately there is not much info available.

BTW, thanks for the picture of your setup.   Since there is no info available for acetic treatment,  I have some questions if you don't mind.
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Cindi
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2007, 09:50:10 AM »

Robo, maybe you can answer this question.  I know that O.A. (the type used in hives) is used in your country by some beekeepers, regardless if it is approved or not for bees. (that in my mind is good).

But what I really want to know is:
1.  Why is it not approved in the U.S., but is approved for use in Canada and Europe?  I don't get this mind set.  Can you clarify for me?  I would be very interested.  Great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2007, 10:24:41 AM »

Robo, maybe you can answer this question.  I know that O.A. (the type used in hives) is used in your country by some beekeepers, regardless if it is approved or not for bees. (that in my mind is good).

But what I really want to know is:
1.  Why is it not approved in the U.S., but is approved for use in Canada and Europe?  I don't get this mind set.  Can you clarify for me?  I would be very interested.  Great day.  Cindi

I'm no expert on the subject by any means, but I think it is purely a $$$$ thing.   It takes oodles of money to get something registered as a pesticide. Since oxalic acid is readily available,  the register wouldn't have a monopoly on selling it so the investment isn't worth it.
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2007, 10:45:04 AM »

1.  Why is it not approved in the U.S., but is approved for use in Canada and Europe?  I don't get this mind set.  Can you clarify for me?  I would be very interested.  Great day.  Cindi

from the same reason our neighbours can still use acaracids(or how they are called) well hemovar, antivar, mitac s and other poisenous stuff we can't.
however i'm very interested in this acetic treatment, could you describe the gadget more detailed? or even photographed it from different angles
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2007, 11:48:03 AM »

Whis is not approved in the US? FDA and other agencies whcih have an interest are slow to react and usually rely on internal evaluations instead of borrowing data from other countries. Money is also an issue. Bayer has managed to get approval for checkmite(coumophous) which in organophosphate. These categories of chemicals are very dangerous, yet approved. Worse, they've lost their effectiveness. Its far from a perfect system.


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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2007, 02:00:39 PM »

Here is a link that I think will answer most of your queries on formic acid pads. Read all the links from it. It is available to both The US and Can.

http://www.miteaway.com/

Hope this helps

Jack
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Cindi
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2007, 10:45:17 PM »

Jack, thank you for taking the time to post the link.  That is a great site and I hope that it will provide many beneficial considerations for other members.  I use formic acid, in a little bit different style than the style of pads of Mite-away's, and it does a good job.

My job now is to investigate why there is two different methods (maybe more, I don't know) of applying the formic acid pads.  I am a curious individual and am on a mission for learning.

The Mitegone site that is situated in Kelowna applies the pads in a different manner.  I have questions now about both systems and I will find the answers.  Great day.  Cindi
this is the site that is in our country.

http://www.mitegone.com/
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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