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Author Topic: VINAGER VAPORIZER  (Read 4416 times)
GNHONEY
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« on: January 28, 2007, 09:42:15 AM »

has anyone tried the vinager vaporizer i love I wont even try anything else I have tried lots of other things that just did not work for long the vaporizer is my tool for mites very simple to use to I really thank some beekeepers just dont want to spend time in the beeyard and try to do a quick remdey by just throwing in strips and using harsh chemials if you ever get a chance to have a another beekeeper let you use hiS or hers just one time you will be hooked to top it off its all natural
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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007, 11:57:29 AM »

could one use OA vapourizer? and what do you have to say about this plan of home invention?
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9922/vaporizervs7.th.jpg
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007, 09:41:10 PM »

has anyone tried the vinager vaporizer i love I wont even try anything else I have tried lots of other things that just did not work for long the vaporizer is my tool for mites very simple to use to I really thank some beekeepers just dont want to spend time in the beeyard and try to do a quick remdey by just throwing in strips and using harsh chemials if you ever get a chance to have a another beekeeper let you use hiS or hers just one time you will be hooked to top it off its all natural


GNHONEY; WELCOME ABOARD THE FORUM. Yes i've tried and have a vinegar vaporizer. I've had mine for several years, wouldn't be without it. what kind do you have? Mine is a cyclone manufactured in Altoona Iowa.    Charlie

         
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GNHONEY
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007, 11:00:18 PM »

I have had mine for four years have not lost any bees to varroa that sure makes me thank back before I started using the vaporizer go to one yard in the spring and find ten out of tweentyfive dead but now in the spring maybe one or two out of tweentyfive from varroa kill  Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2007, 12:08:20 PM »

I just got off the phone w/ inventor of the cyclone, Maurice Arndt. I had a very interesting and lengthy conversation w/ him. He advises that testing was done, and it was compared to Checkmite. The study was funded by Bayer, the maker of checkmite, and concluded checkmite was better. Arndt sued over tortious product intervention and was succesful. Alleged data was 'messed" w/ and he prevailed in court received damages. His product is very expensive at $525 US. He is sending me the literature to read. He swears by this method. Thought I would add this info for public consumption.
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2007, 12:44:40 PM »

His product is very expensive at $525 US.

With 10$ you may handle 70 hives with oxalic acid. With that apparat's price you may handle 3700 hives.
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2007, 12:59:06 PM »

His product is very expensive at $525 US.

With 10$ you may handle 70 hives with oxalic acid. With that apparat's price you may handle 3700 hives.
 

Finsky;  Did you forget? Oxalic acid is not legal in this country. Adee honey farms was fined for the use of it.
                                       Charlie
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2007, 01:50:44 PM »

yes Finsky, its very expensive. Particularly for two hives! I just wanted to do some add'l research. OA is not approved and Adee farms was fined $14,000. Additionally, OA is only available as wood bleach. I have no ideas if this is the same quality and percentage of OA needed for bees. Rarely do "silver bullets" exist for any problem. This sounds promising and I am continuing to follow up w/ some research where applicable.
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2007, 01:51:30 PM »

Finsky;  Did you forget? Oxalic acid is not legal in this country.

If the vinegar vapor is not approved for pesticide use and it is used as such that would be illegal here also. 
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2007, 02:15:16 PM »

Did you forget? Oxalic acid is not legal in this country.

And acetic acid has been approved?   Who owns the certificate?

Adee honey farms was fined for the use of it.

Actually they were find for using unapproved chemicals and the towels that were found contained Fluvalinate and oxalic acid.  Most believe it was the use of the Fluvalinate that got them in trouble.  What if the towels were found with Fluvalinate and acetic acid?

It sort of like saying a guy who committed murder with a stolen gun is serving 30 yrs for possessing a stolen gun.  Don't ya think.....

For the record, I have no preconceived opinion of using acetic acid. In fact, other than claims in a magazine ad,  and the few that have given there opinion here, there is not much info available.  It sure would be nice if the manufacturer had a website.  In fact, I've never even seen a picture. 

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imabkpr
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2007, 02:16:51 PM »

I just got off the phone w/ inventor of the cyclone, Maurice Arndt. I had a very interesting and lengthy conversation w/ him. He advises that testing was done, and it was compared to Checkmite. The study was funded by Bayer, the maker of checkmite, and concluded checkmite was better. Arndt sued over tortious product intervention and was succesful. Alleged data was 'messed" w/ and he prevailed in court received damages. His product is very expensive at $525 US. He is sending me the literature to read. He swears by this method. Thought I would add this info for public consumption.

KONASDAD; Several years ago when varroa and tracheal mites were just coming into our area no one knew what they were or how to treat them. Beekeepers were loosing as high as 80% of over winter bees. Then came Apistan, going to solve all problems, it didn't. I didn't want to use chemicals so elected to use essential oils.

Mr. Robert C. Knoel Cumberland Maryland did an experment THE "Hygienic Factor" and Essential Oils. A lot of very good information was obtained out of that study,
but to use essential oils and tracking systems was very time consuming.  Also with oils weather was a factor to consider.

The last winter prior to purchasing  my vaporizer from Mr. Arnts I lost a little over 50% of my bees, most beekeepers were loosing 70-100% I saw the ad for the vaporizer in the a.b.j. I called Mr. Arnts we talked about the amount of bees i lost,
he explained the way the vaporizer worked and pointed out to me the money i could save by not having to buy packages of bees every spring. Morey Arnts talked me into buying his vinegar vaporizer. Let me tell you I am very glad that i did.

I haven't purchased a package or nuc, since owning my vaporizer. In fact i sell nucs
and make splits for other beekeeper. This is the kind of research we need, Beekeepers shareing and careing because we have done it and it is successful.
Right Michael Bush?           Charlie


 
                                                     



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Finsky
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2007, 02:29:04 PM »


You have in USA good legal methods. You may use them. They are very effective when you use them as tehy are recommended.

I have no mite problem. It is there. Vain effort to be angry to me.  cheesy

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GNHONEY
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2007, 05:18:39 PM »

FINSKI I JUST WANTED TO SAY LIKE ONE OF THE OTHER BEEKEEPERS SAID. IT IS NOT CHEAP TO BUY A VAPERIZER TO BE GAIN WITH BUTT IN THE LONG RUN IT PAYS OFF BY NOT HAVING TO BUY PACKAGES OR SPLITS EVERY YEAR. I IM STILL AMAZED AT HOW WELL IT KICKS THE SHI- OUT THE MITES                     GNHONEY
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2007, 05:58:13 PM »

KONASDAD; Several years ago when varroa and tracheal mites were just coming into our area no one knew what they were or how to treat them. Beekeepers were loosing as high as 80% of over winter bees. Then came Apistan, going to solve all problems, it didn't. I didn't want to use chemicals so elected to use essential oils.

Mr. Robert C. Knoel Cumberland Maryland did an experment THE "Hygienic Factor" and Essential Oils. A lot of very good information was obtained out of that study,
but to use essential oils and tracking systems was very time consuming.  Also with oils weather was a factor to consider.

The last winter prior to purchasing  my vaporizer from Mr. Arnts I lost a little over 50% of my bees, most beekeepers were loosing 70-100% I saw the ad for the vaporizer in the a.b.j. I called Mr. Arnts we talked about the amount of bees i lost,
he explained the way the vaporizer worked and pointed out to me the money i could save by not having to buy packages of bees every spring. Morey Arnts talked me into buying his vinegar vaporizer. Let me tell you I am very glad that i did.

I haven't purchased a package or nuc, since owning my vaporizer. In fact i sell nucs
and make splits for other beekeeper. This is the kind of research we need, Beekeepers shareing and careing because we have done it and it is successful.
Right Michael Bush?           Charlie


Sounds eerily similar to my story,  except I couldn't afford $500 on something that didn't have much of a track record (at least not readily available),  so I went with the JB200 based upon all the experience widely available from Europe.  Same results though.

I'm assuming this is what you have?


I find it amazing that this thing was patented over 15 years ago,  and if it is as good as you say (once again, I'm not questioning your claims) why is there no details available anywhere on the internet?  This guy either needs to hire a consultant to market it, or sell the rights to someone who can.

You use 20% acetic acid, not the readily available grocery store 5% right?  Any issues procuring it?

Would love to see some actual photos of it in use.
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2007, 07:42:01 PM »

>Right Michael Bush?

If it's working for you, that's great.  I'm enjoying not treating at all.
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 10:11:29 PM »

KONASDAD; Several years ago when varroa and tracheal mites were just coming into our area no one knew what they were or how to treat them. Beekeepers were loosing as high as 80% of over winter bees. Then came Apistan, going to solve all problems, it didn't. I didn't want to use chemicals so elected to use essential oils.

Mr. Robert C. Knoel Cumberland Maryland did an experment THE "Hygienic Factor" and Essential Oils. A lot of very good information was obtained out of that study,
but to use essential oils and tracking systems was very time consuming.  Also with oils weather was a factor to consider.

The last winter prior to purchasing  my vaporizer from Mr. Arnts I lost a little over 50% of my bees, most beekeepers were loosing 70-100% I saw the ad for the vaporizer in the a.b.j. I called Mr. Arnts we talked about the amount of bees i lost,
he explained the way the vaporizer worked and pointed out to me the money i could save by not having to buy packages of bees every spring. Morey Arnts talked me into buying his vinegar vaporizer. Let me tell you I am very glad that i did.

I haven't purchased a package or nuc, since owning my vaporizer. In fact i sell nucs
and make splits for other beekeeper. This is the kind of research we need, Beekeepers shareing and careing because we have done it and it is successful.
Right Michael Bush?           Charlie


Sounds eerily similar to my story,  except I couldn't afford $500 on something that didn't have much of a track record (at least not readily available),  so I went with the JB200 based upon all the experience widely available from Europe.  Same results though.

I'm assuming this is what you have?


I find it amazing that this thing was patented over 15 years ago,  and if it is as good as you say (once again, I'm not questioning your claims) why is there no details available anywhere on the internet?  This guy either needs to hire a consultant to market it, or sell the rights to someone who can.

You use 20% acetic acid, not the readily available grocery store 5% right?  Any issues procuring it?

Would love to see some actual photos of it in use.


robo; No this is not the unit i have. I will try to post a picture.
No I use a 25% acetic acid mixture. circulated through the bee colony for 30 seconds.      Charlie
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GNHONEY
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 10:44:59 PM »

CHARLIE I USE 25% ALSO ARE YOU GOING TO BE SELLING BEE THIS SPRING IF SO HOW MUCH IM FROM MICHIGAN AND WAS LOOKING TO BUILD UP MORE HIVES WITHOUT TAKING BROOD FROM MY HIVES THIS WAY I CAN GET SOME EARLY HONEY.  I HAVE THE ORIGINAL VAPERIZER HOW MUCH BETTER IS THE CYCLONE VAPORIZER.       GNHONEY
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2007, 09:11:20 AM »

>Right Michael Bush?

If it's working for you, that's great.  I'm enjoying not treating at all.

Sidestepped the ultimate question. You obviously have lots of contact w/ many people w/ lots of bee knowledge. Any anecdotal evidence to suggest this works for others as well?
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2007, 10:37:01 AM »

                     


                             
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2007, 10:42:42 AM »

                     


                             
   

 This is the Vinegar vaporizer tha i have. It is only to vaporize vinegar.
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Cindi
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2007, 09:51:23 PM »

All I have to say is that I reside in Canada.  I feel very grateful that Oxalic acid is approved for use here, as it is in Europe.  One day it may be approved for use in the U.S. and there would not be fines for using it (if caught). 

It is completely safe and effective to use in the beehives, as long as the instructions are followed properly.  Treating when NO BROOD is present, i.e. onstart of winter, once the late summer bees have all hatched and the queen is not laying.  The treatment is a proven winner to treat the darned mite that we are all plagued with (well, most of us).  It does not harm the adult bees.  This is known fact.

The Oxalic acid sugar trickle or vapourizer system only takes a couple of moments to apply, it is quick, efficient and again as I said, non-toxic to the honeybees.  Oxalic acid is found in nature, I'm sure that is common knowledge.

The Oxalic acid found in the U.S. that is used for wood bleach, etc. is not the specific type that is approved for use in our countries.  I do not know the difference, but treating the hives with that type of oxalic acid would probably be very detrimental to bee colonies.

Formic acid in the spring, oxalic acid in the early winter.  Finsky will agree with this.  Great day.  Cindi
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2007, 12:07:47 AM »

 
Cindi;  I'm glad that you have something to fight the varroa mite. But from what you say you cannot use oxalic acid while brood is present. Can you use it when you are collecting surplus honey? What about formic acid? Can you use it whenever mites are a threat?  I'm not trying to be a smart A-- I'm asking because i don't know.

Unlike some parts of this country where the queen stops laying for a period from late fall to early Feb. It is not that way in my area. It is normal to have brood year round. Not as much this time of year from  1/2 to 1-1/2 frames in each colony.

I can vaporize with vinegar anytime the bee cluster is broken. While brood is present and  While collecting surplus honey. I'm not contaminating the comb in my brood chambers or the comb in my honey supers  25% vinegar vapor does not harm the bees the honey or the beekeeper. Can you honestly and truthfuly make that statement? There is an old saying in the bee biz-what ever it takes, do it. If it works for you do it. An old beekeeper friend said "the only consistency in beekeeping is the inconsistency in beekeeping.
I have found this to be very true.   Charlie
 
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Cindi
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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2007, 09:07:06 AM »

Charlie, nice to hear your response, no offence taken.
 
<Cindi;  I'm glad that you have something to fight the varroa mite. But from what you say you cannot use oxalic acid while brood is present. Can you use it when you are collecting surplus honey? What about formic acid? Can you use it whenever mites are a threat?  I'm not trying to be a smart A-- I'm asking because i don't know.>

Oxalic acid should not be used when brood is present, correct.  It will kill the brood, but not affect the honeybees.

No, you cannot use it while collecting surplus honey, nor can formic acid be used during honey harvest.

Yes, you can use formic acid whenever mites are a threat.  BUT, you cannot use the honey during this time period.

When formic acid pads are applied to the hive, it is generally used for 21 days and then removed from the hive.  This is generally a sufficient length of time unless there is a very heavy infestation of the mite.

Honestly, I cannot say that if the treatment is done during a honeyflow, if there is a point where the honey would be fit for human consumption, I doubt it.  But that does need further research on my part to become informed.  Thinking about it, maybe if the honey supers were removed and this honey used to feed back to the bees maybe.  Maybe putting a new honey super on would be making space for "CLEAN'  honey that would be considered "human safe".  We have a pretty long honeyflow in my area, so I could see that this is possible.

I am taking a beemasters short course at one of our local universities at the end of this month, and these are questions that I know that I will have answers to.  I will be informed of such for our climate.

It sounds like the vinegar method works for you.  That is good.  This is something that I will be discussing at the course to see what our professors of our bee area basically think of it.  Maybe even it will be something that will be recommended to be implemented, I don't know.  The masters will tell all when I am there.

My intention of keeping the varroa population down in the summer is the early spring management, keeping STRONG and HEALTHY hives.  I have much new wisdom that I have learned over the past few months and feel that I am entering my second summer of beekeeping with incredible new knowledge that when I take the best of all the information, I hope that I will be able to say that I am succeeding with big and healthy colonies.  Bee health is my target, honey is a bonus.

My thoughts about keeping the varroa problem in check is to perform frequent mite counts on the sticky boards.  When I see any elevation in levels, I will apply the icing sugar/garlic powder sprinkle using a flour sifter.  That is my idea that I think will help.

I do not live in an area that keeps an enormous amount of bees, so there will not be a high contamination from other beekeepers bees.  The only "other" bees that I would be worry about would be the wild bees, which I am sure there are many.  I do not let my bees out for pollination.  I will be providing 3 acres or more of extremely high producing nectar/pollen plants for the bees.  This may sound strange, but the seeds that I will sow will provide so much nectar/pollen that I honestly don't think that the bees will have to travel far to get their foraging done.  I could be totally wrong, but watching the bees last year with the 1,000th (or even far more) less amount of plants that I will have this year, they were pretty busy here.

We live in a fairly moist and in summer time, pretty warm climate, so their is generally not an enormous dearth because of drought.  The plants receive lots of moisture, from underground and above ground.  The nectar flows all summer here for the most part.

We'll see, these are my hopes and aspirations.  Great day.  Cindi
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2007, 09:44:23 AM »


Cindi;  I'm glad that you have something to fight the varroa mite. But from what you say you cannot use oxalic acid while brood is present. Can you use it when you are collecting surplus honey? What about formic acid? Can you use it whenever mites are a threat?  I'm not trying to be a smart A-- I'm asking because i don't know.

Unlike some parts of this country where the queen stops laying for a period from late fall to early Feb. It is not that way in my area. It is normal to have brood year round. Not as much this time of year from  1/2 to 1-1/2 frames in each colony.

I can vaporize with vinegar anytime the bee cluster is broken. While brood is present and  While collecting surplus honey. I'm not contaminating the comb in my brood chambers or the comb in my honey supers  25% vinegar vapor does not harm the bees the honey or the beekeeper. Can you honestly and truthfuly make that statement? There is an old saying in the bee biz-what ever it takes, do it. If it works for you do it. An old beekeeper friend said "the only consistency in beekeeping is the inconsistency in beekeeping.
I have found this to be very true.   Charlie
 


Charlie,

Here is an interesting read, it is just an example of one of the studies that are available from the EU on use of oxalic acid.

This is the kind of information/studies I would like to see on acetic acid.

Quote
I'm not contaminating the comb in my brood chambers or the comb in my honey supers  25% vinegar vapor does not harm the bees the honey or the beekeeper. Can you honestly and truthfuly make that statement?


Can you honestly say that either?  Where are the studies showing this?  How do you know the acetic acid levels aren't higher in your hives/honey/comb? 

I am glad acetic acid is working for you,  but I also dealt with a lot of folks who swore up and down that essential oils where the answer.  Needless to say they weren't the answer for me and I continued to loose hives until I started OA vaporizing.  There is plenty of studies/data available from the EU and many many years of experience with OA. Until there is data available for acetic acid,  most people will be skeptical.  Unfortunately we have all lived thru too many snake oil salesmen.  The fact that the manufacture does not publish any studies, and would file a lawsuit against a beekeeping organization for publishing the results of demo/test just adds to my concern. 
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Apis_Newsletter/message/22   

Let's keep in mind that oxalic acid is an organic acid just like acetic acid and naturally occurs in nature.  Vegetables like broccoli, spinach, and rhubarb are high in oxalic acid.

One more time for the record  Wink  I am not looking to get into a peeing match of oxalic vs. acetic (nor is Cindi, I think we are both interested in learning more).  Acetic meets and works for your needs,  and oxalic meets and works for my needs.  I truely don't believe there is one "best" answer for everyone.  I am interested in hearing more about acetic,  but unfortunately there is not much info available.

BTW, thanks for the picture of your setup.   Since there is no info available for acetic treatment,  I have some questions if you don't mind.
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2007, 09:50:10 AM »

Robo, maybe you can answer this question.  I know that O.A. (the type used in hives) is used in your country by some beekeepers, regardless if it is approved or not for bees. (that in my mind is good).

But what I really want to know is:
1.  Why is it not approved in the U.S., but is approved for use in Canada and Europe?  I don't get this mind set.  Can you clarify for me?  I would be very interested.  Great day.  Cindi
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2007, 10:24:41 AM »

Robo, maybe you can answer this question.  I know that O.A. (the type used in hives) is used in your country by some beekeepers, regardless if it is approved or not for bees. (that in my mind is good).

But what I really want to know is:
1.  Why is it not approved in the U.S., but is approved for use in Canada and Europe?  I don't get this mind set.  Can you clarify for me?  I would be very interested.  Great day.  Cindi

I'm no expert on the subject by any means, but I think it is purely a $$$$ thing.   It takes oodles of money to get something registered as a pesticide. Since oxalic acid is readily available,  the register wouldn't have a monopoly on selling it so the investment isn't worth it.
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Mici
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2007, 10:45:04 AM »

1.  Why is it not approved in the U.S., but is approved for use in Canada and Europe?  I don't get this mind set.  Can you clarify for me?  I would be very interested.  Great day.  Cindi

from the same reason our neighbours can still use acaracids(or how they are called) well hemovar, antivar, mitac s and other poisenous stuff we can't.
however i'm very interested in this acetic treatment, could you describe the gadget more detailed? or even photographed it from different angles
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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2007, 11:48:03 AM »

Whis is not approved in the US? FDA and other agencies whcih have an interest are slow to react and usually rely on internal evaluations instead of borrowing data from other countries. Money is also an issue. Bayer has managed to get approval for checkmite(coumophous) which in organophosphate. These categories of chemicals are very dangerous, yet approved. Worse, they've lost their effectiveness. Its far from a perfect system.


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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2007, 02:00:39 PM »

Here is a link that I think will answer most of your queries on formic acid pads. Read all the links from it. It is available to both The US and Can.

http://www.miteaway.com/

Hope this helps

Jack
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Cindi
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2007, 10:45:17 PM »

Jack, thank you for taking the time to post the link.  That is a great site and I hope that it will provide many beneficial considerations for other members.  I use formic acid, in a little bit different style than the style of pads of Mite-away's, and it does a good job.

My job now is to investigate why there is two different methods (maybe more, I don't know) of applying the formic acid pads.  I am a curious individual and am on a mission for learning.

The Mitegone site that is situated in Kelowna applies the pads in a different manner.  I have questions now about both systems and I will find the answers.  Great day.  Cindi
this is the site that is in our country.

http://www.mitegone.com/
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