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Author Topic: vinegar for mites  (Read 7414 times)
Cindi
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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2007, 11:48:42 PM »


Another trap is Russian bees.
[/quote]

Finsky, why do you say that?  Best of days.  Cindi
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Finsky
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2007, 01:00:20 AM »


Another trap is Russian bees.

Finsky, why do you say that?  Best of days.  Cindi
[/quote]

Because many beginner believes that Russian keeps mites off and they do not. Many have lost all hives when he has not handled mites.
I have read many stories about that.  It depends how you read expereriences, to sustain your believes or watch out for other's experiences.

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2007, 05:54:57 AM »

>Because many beginner believes that Russian keeps mites off and they do not.

I have to agree.  I have not seen any less mites with the Russians.  I HAVE seen the survive mite loads that would kill Italians.  But they will eventually die on large cell comb without some kind of help.
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Michael Bush
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2007, 04:28:47 PM »

In the November 2006 issue of Bee Journal there is an article about oxalic acid. In the first few paragraphs, the author (name escapes me and I dont have mag in front of me) list acetic acid as an alternative acid for bees. He mentions nothing else. No studies, info, nothing. He then writes that a lot of research has been performed in Europe( not the other acids) and launches into his article. After the last discusion regarding acetic acid, i went back and reread the article as i am contemplating using oxalic acid. Since I seem to have brood all the time the temp is above 50F in my area, I dont know when I would use oxalic acid as the bees are either raising brood, or in a cluster. The acetic acid part jumped out at me, but alas, it provides no "real" info.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2007, 07:42:57 PM »

If you are doing any treatment for Varroa it will be more beneficial when there is no brood:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

Oxalic acid vapor when there is brood will have an affect on the mites that are not sealed in the brood and, from what I've seen, won't damage the brood.  You can do it three times a week apart if you need to.  Trickling, from what I've seen, is not recommended three times.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2007, 08:15:26 PM »

He then writes that a lot of research has been performed in Europe( not the other acids) and launches into his article.

I have went through European reseaches but I don't find result. I may see that acetic acid has bees in program but no results.

Good methods to kill mites are many. During brooding time we use formic acid and thymol.

.
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« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2007, 08:39:56 PM »

i use aprigaurd for my mite treatment.
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Finsky
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« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2007, 08:42:23 PM »

i use aprigaurd for my mite treatment.

It is thymol stuff.
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Cindi
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« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2007, 11:52:14 PM »

My understanding.  Oxalic acid trickle is done ONLY ONE TIME when there is NO BROOD present, it will kill brood.  I have no information or experience on O.A. vapour, hence no comment.  Best of days.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2007, 12:07:31 AM »

My understanding.  Oxalic acid trickle is done ONLY ONE TIME when there is NO BROOD present, it will kill brood. 

It is really so. There are many other methods too. Don't please create your own methods and setups. They will be expencive to you. The idea is not to violate bees with cures. But however, beekeepings best idea is not to take coltrol mites.
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Robo
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« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2007, 08:38:34 AM »

Since I seem to have brood all the time the temp is above 50F in my area, I dont know when I would use oxalic acid as the bees are either raising brood, or in a cluster. The acetic acid part jumped out at me, but alas, it provides no "real" info.

The lack of detailed info on acetic acid, other than "it is the greatest thing since sliced bread" is really fustrating and leaving many people very skeptical.   When essential oils was being pushed as the answer for all problems,  there were at least some people trying to provide some type of scientific testing (albeit low tech and questionable).  Is there any evidence that acetic affects varroa in capped brood?   I know oxalic doesn't and formic does,  but where does acetic fall.

When I first switched to using oxalic acid,  I had heavy infestation and plenty of brood in the hives.   I vaporized 3 times at 7 day intervals as Michael described and I had no noticeable brood damage.   Now I just vaporize once a year in the Fall and have not lost a hive to varroa in 3 years.

I also question the statement by the relative of the vinegar vaporizer maker.

Quote
At this time, we are happy to provide this machine to those who are seeking a chemically free alternative that successfully and safely treats their hives. We are not looking for an endorsement from any one entity.  Frankly we have a great product with a proven track record of customers who are increasing their annual honey yields while reducing their losses from dead hives.   

chemically free???   If acetic acid isn't a chemical,   than neither is oxalic acid.  I know they try to use the pickle example for it being safe,  but I can also put together an arguement for oxalic acid that the quantity I use is the same as 3 1/2 cups of chopped spinach.

As far as a proven track record, I'm not convinced at that either.  Yes there are some here that swear by it (and I'm happy for them),  but go over to Beesource and do a search and you will find just as many that say it didn't work for them.  I lived through similar times with essential oils.  There where many that claimed great success, others biased by their desire to want success, and those that had little to no success.

I don't want to discount it,  but I just don't see the details yet for me to consider buying in on the claims.   Why does acetic help nosema, fowl brood, chalk brood and hive beetle but yet the other organic acids don't?  Until some data (even rudimentary) is provided to back up some of these claims, most will remain skeptical from being burned by snake oil salesman claims in the past.
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2007, 09:22:57 AM »

He then writes that a lot of research has been performed in Europe( not the other acids) and launches into his article.

I have went through European reseaches but I don't find result. I may see that acetic acid has bees in program but no results.

Good methods to kill mites are many. During brooding time we use formic acid and thymol.

.

Sorry Finsky for my inartful use of language-the research was on oxalic acid, which is why he discusses the pros and cons of oxalic, and not any of the other organic acids listed. After all of the discussion on acetic on the forum, I thought it was interesting the author mentions it once.
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Finsky
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« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2007, 10:18:45 AM »


 When essential oils was being pushed as the answer for all problems, 


And the affecting stuff was thymol.  - Sounds fine that oil.

Quote
I vaporized 3 times at 7 day intervals as Michael described and I had no noticeable brood damage. 


Why vaporazing oxalic acid is not in favour is that formic acid make same job without heating.

Quote
chemically free??? 


Those who talk about chemicals, they do not kno what is chemical. Vitamin pills are too.

 I have read a lot biochemistyry in university. It is science which researches chemistry of life.

What are essential oils , who knows that:
Essential oils are made up of many chemical constituents. No two oils are alike in their structure or their effects.
Below is a list of some of the main constituents found in essential oils: http://www.therealessentials.com/chemistry.html
· Alcohols
· Aldehydes
· Esters
· Ethers
· Ketones
· Phenols
· Terpenes



Quote
Why does acetic help nosema,
  98% acetic acid kills nosema spores from empty combs.


Quote
fowl brood, chalk brood


Acetic acid sterilizes European fould brood spores in empty combs but not AFB

No chemical affect on chalk brood or medication - some one says but researches say NO

We have a lot good recipes and reseraches but it must be something else but what ....... something popular.... tongue

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Robo
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« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2007, 10:25:15 AM »

Why vaporazing oxalic acid is not in favour is that formic acid make same job without heating.

Formic acid was not readily available here in the US at the time (thanks to illegal drug manufacturing),  formic acid application is temperature dependant and more time consuming/manipulations than oxalic acid vaporization.
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Finsky
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« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2007, 10:33:19 AM »


Here is tough gyes from Europe who has reseached varroa control for many years. Italian Nanetti invent the oxalic trickling.

You may underestimate professional knowledge and you have your own hobbiers' secrets manouvers. But it is only your business. They are your own hives and and others are not responsible for your bees.

This text is 9 years old. It is worth reading. Since then much has achieved on that field.

http://www.izsvenezie.it/dnn/Portals/0/apicoltura/IntegratedVarroaControl.pdf

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Finsky
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2007, 10:37:59 AM »

.

Here is from UK May 2006  http://www.lrbka.org/web/Downloads/FAQ%2023%20VC%20Organic%20Acids.pdf

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GNHONEY
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« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2007, 12:46:45 PM »

Went  to my last bee yard today 27 beeyards to be exact hit them with vineger vaporizer in the fall. out of all hives lost 18% not bad .lost about ninty% three years ago that was before I started using the cyclone.ps not going to argue about what works and what dont it works for me and im sticking with it. grin--GNHONEY--
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2007, 02:48:57 PM »

>formic acid make same job without heating.

Most formic acid available here has a lot of lead in it (Pb).  Formic acid is VERY temperature dependent.  The studies I've seen on it report high queen losses.  I have seen none of these disadvantages with Oxalic acid vaporization.
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Michael Bush
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ndvan
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« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2007, 06:08:23 PM »

I am a beginner, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

However, at my last bee club meeting, I had a talk with a very experienced beekeeper who has a friend in TX who is also very experienced.  The beek in Texas was using acetic acid fumigation basically just like others have used oxalic acid.  He reported great success.  Finsky may be right that this has not been tested in studies, but it appears a study needs to be done.  If it works, it works, whether or not a university scientist has done a study.  (I do agree that studies are the best way to find out whether it does work.)

Here's another thought.  As I understand it, oxalic acid fumigating is illegal in the US, due to lack of approval.  However, its also my understanding that using food products for treatment is not regulate (such as food grade mineral oil).  As I understand it, the acetic acid being used to fumigate bees is MUCH stronger than regular vinegar.  However, given that a jar of pickles has acetic acid in it, would this avoid the legal restrictions?  (I'm not suggesting it would, I'm just asking.)

Thanks,

ndvan
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« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2007, 09:35:02 PM »

However, given that a jar of pickles has acetic acid in it, would this avoid the legal restrictions? 

Well broccoli, spinach, rhubarb have oxalic acid in them, and they are "more natural" than pickles.  So if your logic holds for acetic, it should hold for oxalic acid too.
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