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Author Topic: Forget Global Warming!!  (Read 3646 times)
kathyp
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« on: January 02, 2007, 02:29:58 PM »

I figured we could use a new subject just for fun smiley

I was listening to someone go on about global warming and how in a few generations, the coasts will flood, the deserts will expand, cold places will be tropical....blah!

It occurred to me that it might not really matter.  Why?  Because almost all of the developed countries have gone into negative population growth.  Even in 2nd and 3rd world countries, the birth rate is down.  The US and New Zealand have static rates of growth.

Before you clap your hands in ecstasy that we will soon have fewer nasty humans polluting the earth, consider these few facts.  The normal work force is made up of those between 18 and 60.  After that, people tend to retire.  They are supported by social welfare programs paid for by the young work force coming behind them.  It takes several young workers to pay for 1 retired persons promised social welfare programs.  What happens when the population ages and there are fewer and fewer workers to support them? 

In addition, it is young people who dream and innovate.  If an old person has a brilliant idea, it is the young work force that will implement it.  imagine Henry Ford coming up with a way to mass produce the auto, and only have a work force of elders to work the lines!  How many 70 year olds will be sitting on the garage floor building micro chips, or  making running better running shoes?  Who will nurse the elders?  Where will new doctors, teachers, astronauts, come from?

At the moment, many countries rely on an imported work force.  As underdeveloped countries reduce birth rates, they won't be so likely to want to work for a bunch of old people....and certainly not at low wages.  They will be a commodity in short supply, and will be able to demand what they want.

Before global warming gets us, we may depopulate ourselves.  Long live the polar bear!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2007, 05:37:13 PM »

Just cooking dinner Kathy, more later - but I heard that more than 40% of Americans are not old enough to remember Jerry Ford as President. I'm thinking we should have those babies of the baby boomer around for quite some time Smiley Come On Retirement - woohoo!!!!
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2007, 06:46:19 PM »

40% sad.  that means that my childrens generation and now their children, make up less that 50% of the population.  unless we have a massive die off of the elderly, that 40% is going to have a lot of us to take care of! 

I'm starting to see little green crackers in my future.......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2007, 06:57:55 PM »

I don't usually go grocery shopping with the wifr but I did this last shopping trip, (she hates to drive in bad weather.) I was looking at all the different meats in the meat section, and started noticing the amount of meat there was. Then I started thinking about all the other stores that was probably stocked just as well, and they are all stocked this way everyday. Then I started thinking of all the other food items. You know... some of that stuff can only be grown at certain times if the year.

This thought hit me about a balance being in there somewhere and surely we are approaching the wrong side of that point.

Tighten those belts
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2007, 05:13:59 AM »

In the 60's it was a new Ice Age, now it's Global Warming.  I refer to both as Chicken Little science.
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2007, 10:39:56 AM »

The Global warming, or if one prefers climate changes, leads to the ice ages. The polar cap melts causing the ocean currents to stop and lands to flood. Then with no current to warm the northern parts it freezes over. This reflects the suns rays causing cooler climates. The Ocean currents haven't started back up so more ice, more sun reflected, colder climates, more ice.....

Snowball earth. It's happened before..... So they say.
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2007, 08:53:29 AM »

The thing that amazes me, people freak out about the ice caps melting, the earth is a living changing thing. It is doing what it does, and for us to expect it not to change and adapt is ignorant.

On the Social Welfare. . .Do your part and save for your retirement.  Part of our problem is our current need to have it now mentality.  A couple of generations ago, people saved for things and paid in cash.

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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2007, 09:38:23 AM »

just read that an ireland in ganges delta have total diasapeared and another will in a year or two. Also there will be a ninja year this year.

about welfare. I have paid tax all my working years 53% when I get my final pension I will get a third of what I am getting now, and will still have to pay tax for the income. I gave up counting the money it takes to bring up a chield, but for sure a lot. So I will have no bad feelings about having some years left letting the youth pay a little upon what I have put into the society.
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2007, 10:20:43 AM »

Jorn, right on, the taxes are pretty heavy stuff.  The more you make, the more they take, it doesn't matter if it costs you more to live and you deserve the higher income because of many reasons.  Tax should be the same.  Whether you are a two or three (or 4) figure income earner.  Great day. Cindi
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2007, 11:12:32 AM »

every virus has to be killed. every parasite kills him self by overgrowing/killing the host. so should the humanity.
as simple as that, we are no more than parasites, a "short" term disease in an organisem called earth
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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2007, 03:41:20 PM »

High taxes are definitely a disincentive to productivity.  Why work harder if the government is just going to take away your money and give it to someone else?

I love P.D. James.  I read "Children of Men" some years ago.  I think I'll check it out again and also see the movie.  As i recall, the book was pretty good.

Quote
every virus has to be killed. every parasite kills him self by overgrowing/killing the host. so should the humanity.

Interesting that man is the only creature that can think of itself as unworthy to live!  I think the earth and the things that influence the earth, do what they do in spite of us, not because of us. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2007, 05:37:57 PM »

High taxes are definitely a disincentive to productivity.  Why work harder if the government is just going to take away your money and give it to someone else?

I have always paid my tax without arguing, because what I get back is worth it. Roads to travel on, free doctors to see or call if you are ill. They even put up now four helicopters as ambulances so that all have a chance to get to hospital alive. If I get seek and need a surgery I do not need an insurance to pay for that I will get the surgery if it cost 100 or 1000 or 10000 USD, I have just been on hospital myself for a minor surgery, and it cost me nothing. I have to use some medical aids for the rest of my life, but it will not cost me a dim. If I need to be taken care of as very old it will also cost me nothing, all that because we are paying taxes. The taxes are not for the sake of government, but for us Citizens. By the way, It seems as our government is very proud becaus one represantive said in a couple of years we are able to by the world. So be warned you Americans smiley
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« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2007, 06:16:01 PM »

jorn,

i think the social welfare system can work fairly well in a smaller, more homogeneous society....... as long as they are having babies.

 Let me use England as an example, because I am more familiar with their system.  They have a social welfare system not so different from what you describe.  They also now have a very big problem.  The birth rate has fallen to around around 1.6 births per woman.  That is a negative population growth rate.  They also have a huge number of immigrants who come into the country and are immediately part of the system.   They get a stipend, free health care, education, etc. and do not pay taxes. They also have the highest birth rate. They often have a place to live provided by the tax payer.  Now, the unemployment rate in england is pretty low so some of those immigrants may find work.  What happens in a country like France with an unemployment rate around 10%?

I observe in our country that the more people are given, the less they feel the urge to provide for themselves.  The more people are given for free, the less incentive to be productive.

I have heard that your health care system is good.  Again, that may be a product of a smaller society.  In england, the NHS sucks.  Treatments are delayed, equipment is outdated, standard of care is about 30 years behind the times.  The NHS is the 3rd largest employer IN THE WORLD. People who can afford to, buy private care and it is much better and much faster. Canada has a problem too.  Patients may be shuffled around the country for care because beds or doctors are not available locally, and tests are delayed for lack of equipment.  It is quite common for Canadians to come to the US at least for testing if not treatment, because they do not want to wait months for something as simple as an MRI.  Japan has another problem.  Their population is actually declining.  They have a tradition of taking care of their elderly, but who will do it now?  They also have a shortage of obstetricians smiley

The birth rates are declining and the longevity is increasing.  How is that sustainable unless draconian measures are taken?  I read that euthanasia is becoming a popular idea in parts of Europe.  Is that true?  How do you feel about it?  I think the time will come when it is a popular idea here also.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2007, 09:16:19 AM »

All this certainly opens up a new can of worms.   Cindi
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« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2007, 10:18:52 AM »

All this certainly opens up a new can of worms.   Cindi

I will take this slowly. I have found another place to live at, and will because of this be limited in use of the Internet. I will have to pay a little more in rent but get a better living place even I get from 80 square metres to 52 Square metres. When I get my final pension I will also get some money to be able to pay my rent. But I will not forget this discussion, because it is interesting. I wonder if the new situation with democrats + in both American chambers will open up for the health care situation in USA. I also hope that less people will be needed living on the streets. We also have people living on the streets here in Denmark and still if it is few a shame for the danish government. The Value of the society is messured by how it treats the week.
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« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2007, 10:30:20 AM »

Jorn, I am sad to hear that you are moving (well, that part is good for you I understand though).  But sad that you will not be on the internet as much.  You are another one that I spoke of in a post that said that there are some members that provide some very good information to us members.  You.

Elaborate on when you are moving.  When will we be missing your numerous and informative posts?  Have a great day Jorn.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2007, 10:37:27 AM »

In this country, most of the people who live on the street are  young runaways, or people with mental health or drug and alcohol problems.  What's really funny about this argument is that it is the liberals (usually democrats) who put them there.  They didn't think it was kind to keep people with mental and substance abuse problem in hospitals or institutions.  They thought these people could be managed in the community.  Guess what??  They disappear from clinics and apartments and turn up under bridges.  They go off their meds and terrorize neighbors.  Sorry, having democrats in office won't solve that problem.  Practical solutions can't be seen by them because of the dark tinting on their big, rosy glasses smiley

Good luck with your move.  Don't forget us!!!

oh ya....europeans seem to think that some people in this country go without medical care.  Not true.  Some people in this country go without medical insurance.  It is a pretty small number and some skip insurance by choice.  This is a problem for which we need to find a solution.  Most of us don't think that national health care is that solution. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2007, 04:29:29 PM »

To Cindy and Kathy and anyone else!

I decided to live in another house just 500 Metres from the house I live in now. It will be a healthier place even if I loose the garden. The forest is still just around the corner. I have ordered a move of my Phone and Internet connection. I will also get a change to get read of all the old skeletons I have carried with me. 1 third of present living place is just storing space for old stuff that I have not been looking at for many years. Until 15/2 I am still living here. 15/2 I am moving to new home. And be warned I am Internet addicted! It is my drug smiley So It will not be easy to get rid of me Wink

I also hope this move will bring peace in my mind. As long I pay my rent and behave nicely to people I can stay there for the rest of my life. It was not the fact where I live now. Because of my bees the landlord and I stopped talking. Be it flower flies, bumble bees, wasp, or normal honeybees he run for the petrol can. I wonder what trauma has been the course for this paranoia.
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« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2007, 04:40:46 PM »

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I wonder what trauma has been the course for this paranoia

people don't always need trauma as an excuse to be ignorant!  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2007, 07:25:26 PM »

Most people are ignorant by choice.  They choose to remain uninformed because they are lazy, conceited, or zealotic.  An open mind views all things with scepticism but is willing to adjust its views when sufficient data indicates.  A closed mind tries to convince everyone that their way is the right way.
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« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2007, 09:34:51 PM »

Jorn, good luck.  There is nothing worse than to be beholding to someone that either doesn't like oneself or things that one does.  The garden, bees and garden beneficials are very obviously a love of yours.  It is sad that these things of beauty brought contention into your life.  I am happy for the peace that you say that you will have.  And a further gratefulness is that you will still have internet and be a part of our forum, you have many good thoughts you bring to us.

I am fortunate that everyone that shares my property has been brought up for a love of animals and insects, and all other beautiful natural things in life.  They have been taught, and they will carry on to each their progeny.  I have seen the kids now and then in the way that kids are, torment a leatherjacket.  Now these are indeed something that should be tormented because they don't do an awful lot of good to the lawns.  But, they do have their place, and do many good things, as well as the bad.  I have taken the time to stop the children, explain to them why they should not pull off these stupid long legs that these blundering insects have.  And they stop.  They understand, and hopefully don't continue on with the bugging of the bug.  The leatherjackets are such a nuisance that they even fly into your hair at times, I don't think that they see well.

But.... the leatherjackets' ugly little larvae do bring on the moles in the yard.  But moles have their place too.  The molehills are big.  I go and I push the soil back down into the hole that they make.  Remove a little of the rocks that get pushed out too, and make the earth flat again.  Our lawn is rather spotted looking in places.  But the grass grows back, the moles are still happy because we co-exist and they can still eat the bad underground bugs, I am happy and the whole scenario repeats itself.  The moles only are prominent for a couple of seasons per year, and then I guess they go somewhere else to find other underground bugs. Hmmm....wonder where?  Great day.  Cindi
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2007, 03:23:56 AM »

Jorn:

Denmark — Population: 5,450,661 (July 2006 est.)
United States - Population 300,925,424 (today est.)

Something tells me that our "60 times your population" is a but a portion of the actual exponential cost of National Health Care in the United States. I don't know of the percentages of poor, qualified aged and disabled/handicapped who receive health-care already (and rightly so) and those who fraud the system through multi-generational Welfare Scamming (who should be both drug tested and jailed for their crimes against tax-payers) and the millions of other receiving health benefits from employers, etc., that still leaves a lot of people who scrape to pay as much as $20 and $40 a PILL (trust me, without prescription coverage I could not afford migraine medications - or at least would go without other things to pay for the ridiculously expensive medications) but to think the DEMOCRATS are some sort of Medical Coverage Genie that is just awaiting to be reborn from the ashes to again propose health-care reform is improper and pompous. It is a game of HOT POTATO - when one party is in the House, the other harps on an issue for 4/6/8 years until they gain the House and then the hot potato gets passed. Nothing is ever done with the potato, it is just legislatures never ending game of football. To see TOTAL medical coverage (and prescription here) should arrive after the Mother-ship hovers about the capitol throwing out $100 bills by the trillions. Don't expect such things Jorn, I know you don't live in a fantasy land and neither do we.

I don't think it will ever happen, not to the extent that it might in other smaller and richer countries like Denmark. People think of Americans as 300 million cookie cutter people, all either celebrating or suffering the same triumphs and tragedies - this is so untrue. They are 300 million different stories, an ever growing rich that divides the space between the working families into fewer sub-classes. Working poor with no foreseeable relief, multi-classes of middle class, so vast is it blinding in number. and at the end of the scale, the filthy rich who teeter 95% of all wealth to the mere 5% balanced to the remaining hundreds of millions. If you think Democrats can fix that, I surely would love to hear how.

I'm glad to see a shake up in Washington, I think it is healthy for the country to see what has become a two-party system work. A lame-duck President asking for total nonpartisan politics after both houses turn against his party's control is not a hand of friendship, it is a white flag after a political battle.

To say our President is strong or weak in office at the end of any second term often depends on his ability to pass the ball to his party into the following election - I don't think anyone would want Bush on their campaign route with them. He will quietly disappear for sometime, probably to never serve as many of the latter Presidents have, as Global Humanitarians. When less than 40% of your own citizens think you are doing a good job in office (and that number isn't much higher when only polling his own party) then your need to go forth and try to improve your stature is for your own glory, not that of your Country or the World.

So, as my Dad said so many times "Democrats are just Republicans in cotton underwear" they are all from the same pond, they just crawled out on different shores. Don't expect NOR THINK we need a NATIONAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM - I don't think it would work here, not now and not ever. Again Jorn, we think differently and you see us through your neutral-country eyes. We sure could have the BEST HEALTH CARE ON EARTH, but we are too darn busy trying to save the rest of the planet from constantly trying to kill itself.

I don't think we should be in the middle of every civil war, but I do think we should prevent genocide, so I think we all to often use our capabilities in the wrong places, but hey... we elected them, they make the decisions and then we complain - that's what Americans do. What we don't do is NOTHING and I think that is what makes the US so special: better to do something and fail than do nothing and fail, the prior is valor, the latter is cowardice. To be Neutral is BLIND.
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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2007, 11:57:14 AM »

the only problem i have with the shake up in Washington is that the people elected mostly moderate democrats, but the leadership is now pretty far left.  an unintended consequence?

we'll see how it works out, but the left does not have a very good track record on most of the things i care about.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2007, 12:19:29 PM »

End of the world
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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2007, 12:56:16 PM »

that would solve global warming!!

this came up in a couple of different discussions, but i'll stick it here.  has to do with rationing some care based on lifestyle.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1917453,00.html
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2007, 03:25:57 PM »

I have to agree with that the NICE guidlines, it has always bothered me that people who destroy there bodies can find replacement parts, and keep on with self destructive habits.  Thats one big reason I quit smoking....however I think enticement to healthy lifestyle is a more ethical approach to this.  Tax breaks for healthy living should be given. Provincially there was some talk about this here, not that anything will come from it for quite some time.
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kathyp
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2007, 04:46:01 PM »

problem with rationed care, or people deciding that certain others don't deserve care, is that you may be next on the list.

 should we spend money treating the elderly?  how about children with birth defects?  what if, with genetic testing, we decided to withhold treatment from the children of parents who have babies knowing that the babies could be defective?  how about someone who engages in extreme sports?  they are risking injury.  how about euthanasia?  if a baby is born defective, should a doctor be able to kill it?  that's already being done quietly in Europe and talked about openly as policy.  euthanasia of the elderly is already quietly practice.  how about the mentally ill?  why spend millions of dollars on treatment if they are not productive?

you see how it can go.  if it seems far fetched, do a google search of euthanasia in the Netherlands.  when you have digested that, add "infants" to the search.  also check out england and Belgium.

is this where we want to go?  especially in light of the original premise of this thread.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2007, 10:31:29 PM »

Hey, we practice euthanasia in the United States; it's called partial birth abortion.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
Kirk-o
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2007, 10:19:59 PM »

Yes it is sad there are 30,000  homeles in L A county were I live its sad
kirk-o
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