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Author Topic: Forget Global Warming!!  (Read 3490 times)
kathyp
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« on: January 02, 2007, 02:29:58 PM »

I figured we could use a new subject just for fun smiley

I was listening to someone go on about global warming and how in a few generations, the coasts will flood, the deserts will expand, cold places will be tropical....blah!

It occurred to me that it might not really matter.  Why?  Because almost all of the developed countries have gone into negative population growth.  Even in 2nd and 3rd world countries, the birth rate is down.  The US and New Zealand have static rates of growth.

Before you clap your hands in ecstasy that we will soon have fewer nasty humans polluting the earth, consider these few facts.  The normal work force is made up of those between 18 and 60.  After that, people tend to retire.  They are supported by social welfare programs paid for by the young work force coming behind them.  It takes several young workers to pay for 1 retired persons promised social welfare programs.  What happens when the population ages and there are fewer and fewer workers to support them? 

In addition, it is young people who dream and innovate.  If an old person has a brilliant idea, it is the young work force that will implement it.  imagine Henry Ford coming up with a way to mass produce the auto, and only have a work force of elders to work the lines!  How many 70 year olds will be sitting on the garage floor building micro chips, or  making running better running shoes?  Who will nurse the elders?  Where will new doctors, teachers, astronauts, come from?

At the moment, many countries rely on an imported work force.  As underdeveloped countries reduce birth rates, they won't be so likely to want to work for a bunch of old people....and certainly not at low wages.  They will be a commodity in short supply, and will be able to demand what they want.

Before global warming gets us, we may depopulate ourselves.  Long live the polar bear!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2007, 05:37:13 PM »

Just cooking dinner Kathy, more later - but I heard that more than 40% of Americans are not old enough to remember Jerry Ford as President. I'm thinking we should have those babies of the baby boomer around for quite some time Smiley Come On Retirement - woohoo!!!!
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2007, 06:46:19 PM »

40% sad.  that means that my childrens generation and now their children, make up less that 50% of the population.  unless we have a massive die off of the elderly, that 40% is going to have a lot of us to take care of! 

I'm starting to see little green crackers in my future.......
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2007, 06:57:55 PM »

I don't usually go grocery shopping with the wifr but I did this last shopping trip, (she hates to drive in bad weather.) I was looking at all the different meats in the meat section, and started noticing the amount of meat there was. Then I started thinking about all the other stores that was probably stocked just as well, and they are all stocked this way everyday. Then I started thinking of all the other food items. You know... some of that stuff can only be grown at certain times if the year.

This thought hit me about a balance being in there somewhere and surely we are approaching the wrong side of that point.

Tighten those belts
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2007, 05:13:59 AM »

In the 60's it was a new Ice Age, now it's Global Warming.  I refer to both as Chicken Little science.
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2007, 10:39:56 AM »

The Global warming, or if one prefers climate changes, leads to the ice ages. The polar cap melts causing the ocean currents to stop and lands to flood. Then with no current to warm the northern parts it freezes over. This reflects the suns rays causing cooler climates. The Ocean currents haven't started back up so more ice, more sun reflected, colder climates, more ice.....

Snowball earth. It's happened before..... So they say.
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« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2007, 08:53:29 AM »

The thing that amazes me, people freak out about the ice caps melting, the earth is a living changing thing. It is doing what it does, and for us to expect it not to change and adapt is ignorant.

On the Social Welfare. . .Do your part and save for your retirement.  Part of our problem is our current need to have it now mentality.  A couple of generations ago, people saved for things and paid in cash.

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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2007, 09:38:23 AM »

just read that an ireland in ganges delta have total diasapeared and another will in a year or two. Also there will be a ninja year this year.

about welfare. I have paid tax all my working years 53% when I get my final pension I will get a third of what I am getting now, and will still have to pay tax for the income. I gave up counting the money it takes to bring up a chield, but for sure a lot. So I will have no bad feelings about having some years left letting the youth pay a little upon what I have put into the society.
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2007, 10:20:43 AM »

Jorn, right on, the taxes are pretty heavy stuff.  The more you make, the more they take, it doesn't matter if it costs you more to live and you deserve the higher income because of many reasons.  Tax should be the same.  Whether you are a two or three (or 4) figure income earner.  Great day. Cindi
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« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2007, 11:12:32 AM »

every virus has to be killed. every parasite kills him self by overgrowing/killing the host. so should the humanity.
as simple as that, we are no more than parasites, a "short" term disease in an organisem called earth
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2007, 03:41:20 PM »

High taxes are definitely a disincentive to productivity.  Why work harder if the government is just going to take away your money and give it to someone else?

I love P.D. James.  I read "Children of Men" some years ago.  I think I'll check it out again and also see the movie.  As i recall, the book was pretty good.

Quote
every virus has to be killed. every parasite kills him self by overgrowing/killing the host. so should the humanity.

Interesting that man is the only creature that can think of itself as unworthy to live!  I think the earth and the things that influence the earth, do what they do in spite of us, not because of us. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2007, 05:37:57 PM »

High taxes are definitely a disincentive to productivity.  Why work harder if the government is just going to take away your money and give it to someone else?

I have always paid my tax without arguing, because what I get back is worth it. Roads to travel on, free doctors to see or call if you are ill. They even put up now four helicopters as ambulances so that all have a chance to get to hospital alive. If I get seek and need a surgery I do not need an insurance to pay for that I will get the surgery if it cost 100 or 1000 or 10000 USD, I have just been on hospital myself for a minor surgery, and it cost me nothing. I have to use some medical aids for the rest of my life, but it will not cost me a dim. If I need to be taken care of as very old it will also cost me nothing, all that because we are paying taxes. The taxes are not for the sake of government, but for us Citizens. By the way, It seems as our government is very proud becaus one represantive said in a couple of years we are able to by the world. So be warned you Americans smiley
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kathyp
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« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2007, 06:16:01 PM »

jorn,

i think the social welfare system can work fairly well in a smaller, more homogeneous society....... as long as they are having babies.

 Let me use England as an example, because I am more familiar with their system.  They have a social welfare system not so different from what you describe.  They also now have a very big problem.  The birth rate has fallen to around around 1.6 births per woman.  That is a negative population growth rate.  They also have a huge number of immigrants who come into the country and are immediately part of the system.   They get a stipend, free health care, education, etc. and do not pay taxes. They also have the highest birth rate. They often have a place to live provided by the tax payer.  Now, the unemployment rate in england is pretty low so some of those immigrants may find work.  What happens in a country like France with an unemployment rate around 10%?

I observe in our country that the more people are given, the less they feel the urge to provide for themselves.  The more people are given for free, the less incentive to be productive.

I have heard that your health care system is good.  Again, that may be a product of a smaller society.  In england, the NHS sucks.  Treatments are delayed, equipment is outdated, standard of care is about 30 years behind the times.  The NHS is the 3rd largest employer IN THE WORLD. People who can afford to, buy private care and it is much better and much faster. Canada has a problem too.  Patients may be shuffled around the country for care because beds or doctors are not available locally, and tests are delayed for lack of equipment.  It is quite common for Canadians to come to the US at least for testing if not treatment, because they do not want to wait months for something as simple as an MRI.  Japan has another problem.  Their population is actually declining.  They have a tradition of taking care of their elderly, but who will do it now?  They also have a shortage of obstetricians smiley

The birth rates are declining and the longevity is increasing.  How is that sustainable unless draconian measures are taken?  I read that euthanasia is becoming a popular idea in parts of Europe.  Is that true?  How do you feel about it?  I think the time will come when it is a popular idea here also.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2007, 09:16:19 AM »

All this certainly opens up a new can of worms.   Cindi
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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2007, 10:18:52 AM »

All this certainly opens up a new can of worms.   Cindi

I will take this slowly. I have found another place to live at, and will because of this be limited in use of the Internet. I will have to pay a little more in rent but get a better living place even I get from 80 square metres to 52 Square metres. When I get my final pension I will also get some money to be able to pay my rent. But I will not forget this discussion, because it is interesting. I wonder if the new situation with democrats + in both American chambers will open up for the health care situation in USA. I also hope that less people will be needed living on the streets. We also have people living on the streets here in Denmark and still if it is few a shame for the danish government. The Value of the society is messured by how it treats the week.
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« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2007, 10:30:20 AM »

Jorn, I am sad to hear that you are moving (well, that part is good for you I understand though).  But sad that you will not be on the internet as much.  You are another one that I spoke of in a post that said that there are some members that provide some very good information to us members.  You.

Elaborate on when you are moving.  When will we be missing your numerous and informative posts?  Have a great day Jorn.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2007, 10:37:27 AM »

In this country, most of the people who live on the street are  young runaways, or people with mental health or drug and alcohol problems.  What's really funny about this argument is that it is the liberals (usually democrats) who put them there.  They didn't think it was kind to keep people with mental and substance abuse problem in hospitals or institutions.  They thought these people could be managed in the community.  Guess what??  They disappear from clinics and apartments and turn up under bridges.  They go off their meds and terrorize neighbors.  Sorry, having democrats in office won't solve that problem.  Practical solutions can't be seen by them because of the dark tinting on their big, rosy glasses smiley

Good luck with your move.  Don't forget us!!!

oh ya....europeans seem to think that some people in this country go without medical care.  Not true.  Some people in this country go without medical insurance.  It is a pretty small number and some skip insurance by choice.  This is a problem for which we need to find a solution.  Most of us don't think that national health care is that solution. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2007, 04:29:29 PM »

To Cindy and Kathy and anyone else!

I decided to live in another house just 500 Metres from the house I live in now. It will be a healthier place even if I loose the garden. The forest is still just around the corner. I have ordered a move of my Phone and Internet connection. I will also get a change to get read of all the old skeletons I have carried with me. 1 third of present living place is just storing space for old stuff that I have not been looking at for many years. Until 15/2 I am still living here. 15/2 I am moving to new home. And be warned I am Internet addicted! It is my drug smiley So It will not be easy to get rid of me Wink

I also hope this move will bring peace in my mind. As long I pay my rent and behave nicely to people I can stay there for the rest of my life. It was not the fact where I live now. Because of my bees the landlord and I stopped talking. Be it flower flies, bumble bees, wasp, or normal honeybees he run for the petrol can. I wonder what trauma has been the course for this paranoia.
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kathyp
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« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2007, 04:40:46 PM »

Quote
I wonder what trauma has been the course for this paranoia

people don't always need trauma as an excuse to be ignorant!  smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2007, 07:25:26 PM »

Most people are ignorant by choice.  They choose to remain uninformed because they are lazy, conceited, or zealotic.  An open mind views all things with scepticism but is willing to adjust its views when sufficient data indicates.  A closed mind tries to convince everyone that their way is the right way.
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Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
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