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Author Topic: Saddam's Execution  (Read 4605 times)
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« on: December 29, 2006, 09:51:35 PM »

here is a link to abc about the execution.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2760282
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2006, 01:30:55 PM »

it's good that it's done.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2006, 01:38:37 PM »

The film footage released SO FAR is far from proof to anyone who is a conspiracy theorist though. Find a single image of him dropping through the gallows or swinging from a rope and I think you'll make a few more people who were terrified by this beast sleep better - We see him getting a rope around his neck, then cut to him in a body bag - I know more images will follow, but no one had problem posting images around the net of Americans having their lives snuffed out by Al Zawkari in the most gruesome way I know.

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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2006, 02:14:31 PM »

true.  i went to the site that usually has those pictures published ASAP.  they are not there yet.

the beheadings were meant to be published as propaganda.  perhaps this is meant to be kept a little quieter....at least until they know that the arab world will not erupt.  it appears that it will not.

i think that showing executions is a good thing.  it used to be done in this country.  i guess it is not PC....as i know i am not smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2006, 07:36:02 PM »

Well theres video of the noose going around his neck so I expect more to follow.

The photograph of him dead is very interesting. Marks on the LHS of his face would indicate abrasions from the very large knot used. The right side of his face shows a severe rope mark to the RHS of his nose, I think caused from where the knot ended up. I deduce it may not have been the the most textbook of hangings. It seems the inital drop caused the noose to rotate to the other side of his neck.

These marks could have been caused by someone tugging on his legs of course.

They are not the marks of a beating after death, just rope marks.
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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2006, 07:57:54 PM »

So story is  over. Please tell your president not to start another.

Please John remove this threat. It harms me in my feelings that some are thinking state killing is OK, be who ever he is he has no right to play good. I will not answer further messages in around, nor PM or e-mail. I am definitly against State killing or human killing at all.
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2006, 08:48:40 PM »

Quote
Please John remove this threat. It harms me in my feelings that some are thinking state killing is OK, be who ever he is he has no right to play good. I will not answer further messages in around, nor PM or e-mail. I am definitly against State killing or human killing at all.

the great thing is that you have the right to express your opinion.  even one that some of us may disagree with.  i respect your opinion.  i hope you respect the fact the we wish to preserve the right for ALL to express how they feel?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2006, 08:50:16 PM »

for those who are interested....a video is out.  looks like it was quick and clean.  not a very good recording as it was made with a cell phone or something similar.  he got better than he gave.
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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2006, 10:06:13 PM »

Jorn:

Sorry to tell you MUCH of the world thinks STATE KILLING IS FINE - AS DO I.

First, NO. I'm not removing this thread. Tired of removing threads, get over it.
Second, I'm tired of paying for 40,50,60 YEARS worth of room and board for LIFE IN PRISON inmates. If you are PROVEN GUILTY of murder, you should die - if there is ANY DOUBT then life makes sense. But with video tape evidence especially, or absolute evidence or if you plead guilty and pass a polygraph, then I'm happy enough that we HUMANELY send you to Hell with lethal injection.

Sadly, you come from a country where you have FAITH in the United Nations - MOST AMERICANS DO NOT. Personally, I wish they'd ship that whole building to your part of the world where it would be better loved. It is nothing but a burden on the citizens of NY who end up fighting for parking spots while alleged diplomats park any freaking' place they wish.

I don't want to sound nasty, but what would you do with Saddam, slap him on the wrist, try to rehabilitate him, let him live in a half-way house with other genocidal maniacs, then after 30 days release him with a ankle monitor? What foolishness.

Sorry we don't all live in Utopia, we live where people are killed for no reason, where scum has taken over many streets, where we have cities where I tell my wife to RUN EVERY TRAFFIC LIGHT and ONLY STOP if/when a cop pulls her over. That isn't paranoia, that is reality. The deadliest city in the U.S. is Camden, NJ only 40 minutes from here - truth be told, a white man don't drive through Camden at night unless he is scoring dope or a dead-man, or both. That's not racist, it's reality.

Nope Jorn.... This ain't going away - people have opinions and the coffee house is as good a place to share them as any. We have 3 thousand dead soldiers lost fighting a war that most of us don't fully understand, but we support our troops no matter what, and beyond the dead are the 10s of thousand physically and mentally wounded from this Godawful war. Don't tell Americans NOT to talk about Hussein or the War or anything else "you think" the USELESS UN can settle if given enough time - you can tell us all about it if you wish (that is why we have open exchange here) but DON'T TELL US NOT TO TALK ABOUT IT. On this one we could not disagree more - you are welcome to counter-point anyone's opinion, especially mine - here in America, and even in an International forum, the UN can kiss our BUTTS, you though can feel free to disagree.
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2006, 01:38:51 AM »

I think John is for free speech and the death penalty, for those of you that dont like long posts. grin

Whew Go Boss!!!! shocked
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2006, 03:11:05 AM »

Gee Mick... Thought I said that  rolleyes that's what happens when I write short posts - lol.

A last thought, we have talked about before is that when the soldier pulled Saddam out of his Spiderhole, the soldier had 3 options:

1) Take the $250,000 in US Money Saddam offered him and walk away.
2) Shoot Saddam in the chest a few times to save us all a long trial.
3) Bring him back for full medical attention and humane treatment.

He/they did the third - this alone says a lot about American Armed Forces.

I don't think I would have been such a kind and humane soldier after turning over every dust covered pile of junk, not knowing what was booby-trapped or not for all those many many months.

That's the point I guess, we can assume that a mission is just and that the goal is just, and to the men and women in uniform on the streets of Iraq trying to make a difference, no matter how much change for the better they see, they always know that a car bomb is somewhere being loaded to the hilt and on a collision course with someone - but they still do their jobs, often recapturing the same towns and dwellings over and over. There is something magical in service of this kind - I can't imagine fighting someone hell-bent on destroying themselves and also killing as many as they can take with them.

I'm just like everyone else here, I want our troops home as fast and safe as possible - hopefully after making a difference in a country where tyranical rule was replaced with civil unrest, territorial battle-lines in the sand and (the dreaded word) Insurgents running amuck.

God Bless Our Troops in the New Year.

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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2006, 12:45:08 PM »

Please remember as a Dane we are used to and proud of free speech and are willing to fight for it. I am also proud of being member of a nation against the death penalty.

Sadam trial was a joke, and his death is changing nothing in the pour country. It is not setting a period for his regime because the regime was already out of duty when he was digged out of his hole, in opposite to the Romanian Chaucenko (I forgot his  name)execution and the dead of Hitler.

Have a nice and prosperous New Year with a lot of beekeeping activity. I hope you will get your sons and daughters back alive.
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2006, 01:32:49 PM »

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Sadam trial was a joke

we do not get perfection from our older and established governments.  should we expect perfection from a new government, with a new constitution, trying to establish the rule of law where it has not existed before?  the facts were not in dispute.  perhaps the procedure could have been better.

Quote
and his death is changing nothing in the pour country

i disagree.  it ended once and for all the thought that saddam might be allowed to make a deal and return to power.  it gave the millions of families who had lost members to his regime a sense of closure...and not to be discounted, a chance to feel that there was some revenge gotten on their behalf.

Quote
Please remember as a Dane we are used to and proud of free speech and are willing to fight for it. I am also proud of being member of a nation against the death penalty

on the second point.  that is the right of your country.  we have states in our country that do not have the death penalty.  some people don't want it.

on the second point.  you have a growing minority in your country that does not believe in free speech and does believe in the death penalty.  how will you handle it?  from the outside, it looks like a pretty serious problem that could change the nature of your culture forever.

i do not understand resistance to the death penalty.  i will give you my point of view.  you can take it for what it's worth smiley

if i am attacked by someone and i kill them, that's perfectly legal.  in fact, i would be applauded for protecting myself.  however, if i am attacked and i fail to protect myself....if i am killed and later the killer is caught, why would the state not have the right and obligation to do what i failed to do?  they not only have the obligation to protect society, but my family has the right to revenge.

for some reason, in our mushy multicultural societies, the word "revenge" has become a dirty word.  i think the words revenge and justice are often interchangeable.


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2006, 01:54:34 PM »

Very well said John and Kathy. The deeds and atrocties that Hussein commited could have no other justice than death! Although I think in this case,and not often do I feel this way, that stoning may have been appropriate because when he gassed his own people it left many to die a slow agonizing death.
Ans that is my thought on this subject.
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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2006, 03:05:18 PM »

Jorn:

Glad you decided to take place in a debate of ideas. It is obvious that our generations and our nations think differently, but as KathyP said, we have the interesting SUB-DIVISION (so invisible to most it is only a "welcome to a different state sign) on the highway. States have individual law on issues that the Federal Government has chosen are worthy of non-intervention.

Whether a criminal dies is surely one of them, it can differ greatly from state to state even the time served for nearly every crime. But ASK SADDAM how FOOLISH his trial was, oppps you can't cause the murdering dirt-bad is dead and now buried where hopefully the Hands of Hell reach-up and drag him through a thousand miles of rock to the fires of eternity.

KEN: Stoning or Nerve (Mustard I think was one of his favorites - Carin just had too short a shelf life for Saddam) would have been a good alternative too. May Jorn is right, since the trial was a joke, release him to the people and let them decide - if he lives, we pull out today, if he's dead in about 4 seconds, we stay this miserable but hopefully waning battle against the evil Saddam en-stowed into so many in his land.

I'm sickened Jorn, and grab your barf (vomit) bag that we HAVE the DEATH PENALTY in my state of NEW JERSEY but No one has been executed since 1963, although a statute reinstating capital punishment for murder has been in force since 1982. Historically, at least 361 people were executed by the state between the execution of a slave named Tom for rape in 1690 and the execution of Ralph Hudson for murder on January 22, 1963. But since the reinstatement 43 years ago, NOT ONE PERSON has died (except of old age) on New Jersey Death Rows. That sickens me to think that the most hideous of humans, the beasts who kill and destroy life's with no remorse are getting three square meals, continuous medical care and NEVER having to worry about when THEIR time is up. Yep, it sickens me.

Sorry you think I am barbaric, but I'll add one thing else to what Kathy mentioned, if anyone ever hurt my family, I'd spend every penny I have to bring that low-life to SELF JUSTICE, I promise he would be begging for the police. I'll not get too graphic on this, except to say - we give police EXTRODINARY RIGHTS, they carry weapons with the right to use them as necessary, they can speed to catch criminals, and exceed the law in many ways (all the while working within a tight restraint of rules that would boggle the minds of ordinary people) and these police are at the front line of a very long process that hopefully puts the right person behind bars and dishes to them WHATEVER the land of the laws is to its extreme.

I have faith in that system, most of us do - when I see a police car, I feel safe, not scared. If I am pulled over, I turn off my engine, place my car in park, put my hands on my steering wheel and wait for instructions. It is called being a smart citizen. When someone runs from the police, the have now began a voyage of unimaginable end - what happen to them is great determined by how stupid they are.

Good people rarely see the death penalty Jorn, even the bad ones rarely do - but for every bad one that dies, there are THOUSANDS on death row waiting their turn - hopefully someday we'll all get our act together and kill off those cockroaches of society UNLESS of course YOU WANT THEM AIR-MAILED to your Country. See, when the problem is your own, you see things a bit different. I see me sitting over the kitchen sink, lighting $100 bills and watching the shes flow down the drain to keep this scum alive. I can't put it any better than that.
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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2006, 03:05:51 PM »

Just for the record: I have never defended Sadam!!! end of this story.

and now after he is killed, what about all the other victims, are they getting justice? I do not think so, they will just be forgotten. The Iraq will more likely explode, I am afraid off, and that you have not seen that untill  now is just because of the muslim holidays, and the pilgrims to Mekka. But OK its a guess maybe adding to the terror.
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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2006, 03:06:55 PM »

Boy and I thought the threat about the guy burning the bee swarm was a going to
be a flamewar. Maybe if we can keep this thread up we can bring back that thread.

As I once heard the best way to get people going is talk gun, politics or
abortion. This one falls under politics.

Clausewitz's description of war as a "continuation of politics by other means."

I tend to be a creature of logic. So I will state some logic items.
1. Saddam was leader who torture and killed people.
2. The war in Iraq was not due to 9/11.
3. The US invaded Iraq and removed it's leader with false and misleading reasoning.
4. The US invasion has created a civil war in Iraq.
5. The US invasion of Iraq has cost over 2,900 US solider lives to date.
6. Saddam's death will not change anything to do with Al Qaeda.

The state of the death of the former Iraq leader will not change anything.
Chances are that if the republicans held congress there would be a serious move
to invade Iran.

I support the soliders and want them to come home safetly, but I do not support
the politics that sent them there.

And yes free speech is a wonderful thing. Just ask Jorn about some cartoons that
were published a while back.


Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2006, 03:45:07 PM »

Brendan:

The burning of the bees was RECKLESS and DANGEROUS and SICK - having some idiot tossing open cans of paint-thinner, then open cans of gasoline on an open fire is IRRESPONCIBLE for anyone to propagate. He's lucky him, the camera guy and his whole house didn't go up in flames. I'm hoping you get off that topic and see it does not have a place for anyone here.

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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2006, 04:42:14 PM »

Quote
1. Saddam was leader who torture and killed people.
2. The war in Iraq was not due to 9/11.
3. The US invaded Iraq and removed it's leader with false and misleading reasoning.
4. The US invasion has created a civil war in Iraq.
5. The US invasion of Iraq has cost over 2,900 US solider lives to date.
6. Saddam's death will not change anything to do with


1. true
2. true...although iraq was a state supporter of terrorism, and so one of many legitimate targets.
3. false.  the us invaded iraq based on the best available intel from international sources AND based on the fact that they had not complied with the terms of the 91 cease fire.
4. technically, it's probably not a civil war yet.  most of the country is peaceful and is prospering.  incomes are up 300% and GDP is up  14+%. that would not be happening in a nation wide civil war.
5.  and.........?
6.  maybe not.

there is a book you might enjoy.  its "Secret History of the Iraq War" by Yossef Bodansky. he's not a bush fan.  he's not a conservative (to my knowledge).  the book outlines the pre-war intel from many arab countries among them Jordan.  it's well cross referenced and pretty eye opening.  we don't know how much we don't know!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2006, 04:54:43 PM »

one other thought and i'll quit hogging the posts smiley

i do believe that a good many problems can be solved by means other than war.  in order to do that, we must have direct conversations.  you can not talk around a problem and find a solution.  off hand, i can not think of any problems that have been solved by "diplospeak".  sometimes the honest exchange of ideas is difficult.  it takes a great deal of mental toughness to have an uncomfortable conversation.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2006, 06:20:29 PM »

Believe it or not, civil unrest after 30 years of a dictatorship is quite normal. There are thousands of old scores to settle. Better to get 90% of them out of the way now, than to bottle them up. Sure each crime will lead to payback, it is just their way.

The Iraqi society is going through a clean out. It is just unfortunate that coalition troops are in the middle of it

Saddams execution was a necessary step in the way forward. To have him rot in jail would have cost billions a year. Yep Billions. Couple of divisions,replacement divisions, intelligence, Missile launchers & AAD, Helicopters and a Carrier on standby 24/7 and the dozen support and supply ships, CAP 24/7, Hospital Ship on standby 24/7, hospital ward on standby in Ramstein 24/7 and on and on it would have gone. Billions each year.

When Rudolph Hess was on his deathbed in the late 80s, there were actually politicians and do gooders attempting to have him released, so he could die a free man.

People have short memories.

There is far too much political correctness and kowtowing to dogooders in this world. Its why we have half the problems we do, people afraid to speak their mind for fear upsetting someone.

I am glad this discussion has been held, what were we to do? Ignore it, be like the rest of the sheep in this world and pretend it has nothing to do with us?
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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2006, 10:30:09 PM »

it may have been one of our mistakes to get in the way of that bloodletting early on.  it seems to be a necessary catharsis, but we consider it to "uncivilized".

people do have short memories.  at the end of ww2, most of the french insurrectionists were by then communists.  i'm sure that gave the allies a twitch.  the insurrectionists proceeded, after liberation, to hunt down a kill (without trial) as many collaborators as they could find. 
the italians just hung folks right out on the public square.
for at least 2 years after a rather decisive end to ww2, there were still nazis trying to kill allied soldiers.  they shot at them, tried to blow them up, etc.  we spent the next 15 or so years hanging out in germany trying to keep at least half of it secure.  same with n korea.  we occupied japan from '45 to '52.  didn't even pretend to set up an independent japan. and i'm pretty sure that the allies didn't plan on the USSR sucking up a large portion of what had been liberated.

so should we not have bothered to fight hitler?  of course not.  even so, things for many people did not turn out the way we would have planned or wished.

you do the best you can and accept that some things are just out of your hands.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2007, 02:13:42 PM »

As a person who spent a portion of his life enforcing the law so that the average Joe could walk the streets safely I can tell you that the perpertrator has more rights than the victim by 10 to 1.  Saddam Hussein, like a lot of serial killers and child predetors, got as fair a trial as the new government of Iraq could provide.  He got a lot more than his victims did--most of them were put to death at his whim.  He at least got to argue his case before a group of judges who decided, collectively, that he deserved to die.
Serial killers and child abusers usually put their victims through hell befor killing them.  I'm with Kathy P on that.  As a retired police officer I can legally carry a concealed weapon and I do.  Why?  Because I value my life more than I do the person's trying to take mine away from me.  I also value the lives of other law abidding citizens more that theirs.  In this country we have the right and the means to protect ourselves.
I have found that killing someone is not the worst thing you can do to them.  Try living with being terrorized by a rapist, child molester, etc and live a full life afterward--from my observations it's almost impossible.  Saddam got of lightly.
I find it interesting though that those societies that champion human life have rendered their citizenary incapable of protecting themselves by outlawing gun ownership or the right to self protection.  In Europe, and other places, it is often illegal to kill someone trying to kill you.  They break into your house assault you, rob you of your property and if you hurt or kill them you become the criminal.  That is absurdity at its highest level.
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« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2007, 08:11:24 PM »

I do not feel I got an answer to my question about justice for the reaming victims! And for that matter all Victims in this War. And why is it needed to watch the thong out of the throat.
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« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2007, 08:52:19 PM »

Quote
I do not feel I got an answer to my question about justice for the reaming victims! And for that matter all Victims in this War. And why is it needed to watch the thong out of the throat.

i'll try to give you my answer, if i understand correctly what you are asking.

you many be right that they will be forgotten by many.  how many remember the millions killed in the Congo, or the Balkans, or any of 1000's of other places.  we obviously have short memories or we would recognize a threat when it presented itself rather than waiting until it is out of control.

justice?  the best justice for the Iraqi people is to be able to live in freedom.  to be safe.  to bring back the rich culture that they enjoyed for so many years.  i hope with all my heart that we can help them achieve that.  i do not know if we will succeed.

as for watching the execution, it is probably important for the people of Iraq, or any other country that has been oppressed as Iraq was, to see the oppressor dead.  they need to know that he's gone, and for some it will bring some comfort.  also, remember how long Hitler lived after he died?  decades of people thinking he'd gotten off to central or south america......

i looked for the tape of the execution because i wanted to see it for myself.  i do not trust press reports.  i want to see.

  i also watched the tapes of the beheadings.  that may seem like an awful thing to do.  i cried as i watched them.  why did i do it?  to know the enemy.  to know that they are not like us.  to understand that they are not people you can negotiate with, capitulate to, or learn to live with.  we need to know that because one of our conversations needs to be about how you deal with people who have such a complete disregard for the norms of society, and human life.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2007, 01:45:31 AM »

That is an interesting fact Brian. Do other citizens that have a pistol license where you are, have to wear it unconcealed? You have some strange State laws there regarding guns. Is that town in texas still going where you MUST own a firearm?

Here only the police have sidearms, some cash carrying security guards too. Some nut case security guards escape the net, its beyond me how they are allowed to get a pistol license. You know the types, they buy the biggest and shiniest gun they can and parade around like they are King Billy. I am sure you have them there.

The rest of the peope in my State who want guns must belong to a gun club, or no license. Local copper sneaks around your place for a few months, checks out your rubbish bin for empty bottles and weird magazines. If you pass his test you get one. Gun and ammo must be stored in seperate locked safes. Random checks by the cops etc etc.

These measures were introduced after we had 13 shot dead in one incident and 37 in another, both were nutters, both life in jail, both still making the papers argueing about their rights, suing for being beaten up in jail etc.

KathyP, woo gutsy lady, women dont speak thier mind like that here anymore. I miss it. Only one I can think of is Nancy Wake AC, GM.  aka "The White Mouse" former number one on the Gestapos most wanted list. Me old mate Nancy worked for the French Resistance and the British SOE (forerunner to SAS) and is the highest and most decorated Servicewoman of the second world war. (Presidential Medal of Freedom, with Bronze Palm for one).

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/white_mouse.htm for those who might like to see a bit about Nancy.

Nancy said she enjoyed garotting Nazis and if given the chance would do so again. She often said anyone who knew the nazis would feel the same. I can only be thankful that I did not experience the work of the Nazis first hand like she did.

Nancy is now in her late 90s very frail in body, but her mind is still sharp . She is hoping to get to 100. She lives in a retirement home for Old Soldiers in the UK. Her upkeep is paid for jointly by HRH Charles, The Prince of Wales and the Australian Government.

It was her wish to return to France to live amoungst her old Comrades, it was granted but she found them all dead when she got there. Therefore she has chosen to die in the UK.

One of her lighter comments, and there are not many is this:

"I hate wars and violence," she has said, "But if they come I don't see why we women should just wave our men a proud goodbye and then knit them balaclavas."

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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2007, 03:14:54 AM »

Hello Brian!

I don’t get it either with your arms law! I here you crying about being removed personal freedom, if you are not allowed to have a gun at home.

Here in Denmark it is so, that the police are a citizen being assigned a special Job. The gun belongs in a locker if not warns in duty. It is not allowed to have it at home. There is not a license to kill following the license to the weapon. When the policeman retire or otherwise leave duty the gun must be returned to the police department. Even policemen are human and can loose the temper. That we have seen here in Denmark where a policeman killed of his family using his police gun. Hunting guns and sport guns must be kept departed and amu in a locker. I personally want the guns away from the streets. The fewer guns on the streets the fewer killings are done.
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« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2007, 04:48:00 AM »

Jorn:

I would never own a gun, pistol or rifle of any kind - it just isn't something I feel safe possessing BUT I recognize our laws say that I have the RIGHT not a PRIVILEDGE to BARMS. Is it so strange of you to grasp the idea that a country has chosen to gives its people the ability to rise against possible triany in its government, or to protect itself against any threat to life?

As strange as you find the U.S., I think we find your theories a little (saying this as kindly as possible) sissified. You have guns to hunt with, yet you claim only police in the line of duty can carry or use firearms. A perfectly good gun that could save your life against assault is locked safely away from ammo, never to meet unless (what) a flamingo flies by on "Pink Bird Day"?

You honestly would NOT use a gun to protect your own life or the life of your family? I'm afraid I just don't get that one. I assume while someone is being killed, they are to call the police and hope that they arrive in time EVEN IF they have weapons (legally owned weapons - if only meant for hunting) they would still NOT use those guns for self-defense? And to go further, to have countries where it is illegal to kill someone in self-defense is not a very safe sounding place for anyone to live, I'm not sure if that is YOUR COUNTRIES POLICY - but that idea frightens me.

I have handled weapons, even the great 44 magnum of Dirty Harry Fame - they scare the crap out of me, I didn't shoot it, only a shotgun and a small handgun at a gun-club. Normally it causes me great anxiety to be even near them. But, that does not change the fact that I have a right to possess them. There has always been a quiet debate on the issue of BEARING ARMS and OWNING ARMS - the former meaning to possess arms for immediate use (as in to take arms against an enemy attack) then give them up. As where to OWN is to possess for any reason from a collection to protection and any other use deemed legal.

Our Founding Fathers were smart enough to realize that a possible INTERNAL THREAT to the foundation of government was possible, as is the case in most all of history. I believe though that their laws and subsequent amendments have created a righteous society, not one where ARMS will undo our land in another Civil War, but allow us "representation through elections" without the use of weaponry across our own land.

Only history will prove that out, we all hear of militia groups in the North-Western states armed to the teeth with every imaginable rocket launcher, automatic weapon and nearly an endless supply of ammo - but I pity the day they decide to use that to take on the Government and our military. They will surely just be a black spot on the satellite images of Google Maps.

No, I don't think EVERYONE should own a weapon, we don't sell them at corner stores and getting licenses are tougher all the time - more importantly, I don't think ARMS should include rocket launchers, cannons, flame throwers or anything else the nut-case militias may have. I doubt that anyone in 1776 could foresee the parade of weapons we have available both legal and on the Black Market today. So if you are to include everything as Arms, then LIMIT the AMMO someone can possess.

Our government survives on a Checks and Balance System, or as we seem to hear it called in this politically correct land of ours - oversight committees  rolleyes Neither side of Legislature is stupid enough to ever play real hardball because of the "Don't throw stones in a glass house rule". Maybe this is too American for some people to grasp - heck, we don't really understand it all, most of what we learn about US Politics is over by the 5th grade.

But, we understand the trickle down theory that from a Nation of 50 states, to counties and parishes, to local governments and finally to the voter, we are all part of the process and although it isn't flawless now, nor have we EVERY gotten it totally right, but when we step into a voting booth we are given great power and in return the only things we are asked to do is pay our taxes and serve on Jury Duty - the latter I believe is the greatest of all honors a citizen can receive.

And thus, although it wasn't chronologically powerful, I end my rant on Saddam. Yes, he was the topic afterall  Undecided and Jorn you can call his trial a sham, most of us feel the same about OJ Simpson - a murderer walks free among us and there is nothing to do about it. At least Iraq doesn't have that problem with Saddam, he's burning in the flamming pits of Justice where he belongs. Sorry you feel hanging that murderous scum was so unjust, but taking away his Teddy bear and sending him to bed with out supper just seemed so so wrong.
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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2007, 06:21:51 AM »

As I said: A policeman can snap as all other people can snap.

We had two collections of illegal weapons here in Denmark. A lot came in from ww2 homemade machine guns and other of this crap. Now even carrying a knife more than 7 cm is illegal. So are also butterfly knife and the like. There are still some criminal groups using firearms in their daily fight, but they are handled by special police force.

The reason for the strict rules about having weapon in home separated is the fact that burglars should not get armed this way.

In fact the most kills of people is within families. And don’t tell me that a burglary of maybe a few hundred dollars justify a killing.

I am not telling you to do it our way; I just put a comment on it. But sure we have a difference. Just as a friendly example. Danish television had a TV story about a Danish policeman visiting USA with his family and trained police dog. During his visit he wanted to show how they worked with the dogs here in Denmark. So he wanted to use he’s 9-year-old son as an object for this demonstration. The other policemen got scared by this, and asked him how he could dare using his son for this demonstration without using protection. He did the demonstration and the son was not harmed. It comes from that Danish Police dog training is more an around training. Searching for lost people and finding criminal tracks such as sperm, blood and the like. And of course also as a weapon. And you must believe me it works. The American police dogs in this were not trustable. They were trained to bite on its own will while Danish police dogs are trained to bite on command.

About the Sadam. If the killing should be a revence as I see it as, there was still a lot to be ansvered for. Not only those 180 Shias. I feel that a trial as the NĂĽrnberg would have been much more fair to those that no longer are able to speech. Will this happen, I am afraid the answer is no.
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2007, 10:31:57 AM »

Mick,

gun laws vary from state to state.  explaining different state laws to my European relatives is like explaining the dark side of the moon.  smiley  i live in a different state from Brian.  i have several guns and have a concealed carry permit.  in theory, i can carry my guns in the open anytime.  in fact, it makes people pretty nervous and they'd probably call the police.  even so, nothing would be done to me because i would be breaking no laws.  to carry concealed you need a permit in most states that allow it, but not all.  this is primarily for the protection of the police.  i have a concealed carry permit.  i camp and ride alone a lot and throw a hand gun in my saddle bag.  my husband travels a lot.  i keep a loaded gun by the bed.  i have a farm.  i keep loaded short and longer range weapons at hand.  when i am not home, the guns are locked in a gun safe.  i fail to see how you can use a gun for self protection if you have scattered the relevant parts around in different locked boxes!

yes, there are several towns that require head of household to own a firearm.  it is also worth noting that those places in this country with the strictest gun laws have the highest rate of crime.  those with the most gun ownership, have the lowest.  if you were going to rob a house or attack someone, wouldn't you choose a place where you were pretty sure there were no guns in the hands of the citizens?  smiley

Nancy was right.  women might be the last who want to see blood shed, but get a woman riled up enough and she'll be a better killer than a man.  and she'll never look back.
i hate war more than anything.  i have lived with a military family all my life and lived with war all my life.  when 9/11 happened all i thought about was the fact that we were going to war and my son was now in the military.  that said, there is a quote i keep in mind

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)


Jorn,

Quote
I personally want the guns away from the streets. The fewer guns on the streets the fewer killings are done.

this is not backed by facts.  at least not in this country.  the more guns owned by citizens, the fewer serious crimes committed.  even in japan, a country with some of the strictest gun laws, the criminal have guns.  only the citizens are left unable to fight back.

i have owned guns all my life.  i was 10 when my dad taught me to shoot.  he also told me never to pick up a loaded gun unless i was sure in my heart that i could use it.  i am sure.

Quote
Now even carrying a knife more than 7 cm is illegal. So are also butterfly knife and the like.


i guess you wouldn't like my knife collection much sad

Quote
I feel that a trial as the NĂĽrnberg would have been much more fair to those that no longer are able to speech

if we had the same social conditions as after ww2, i would have agreed.  now we have international courts that are more interested in convicting Rumsfeld than they ever were convicting Saddam.  we have "allies" that we can not trust because they were billions of dollars into the pocket of Saddam.  i just don't think that would have worked this time.  besides, if the Iraqis wanted to do this, they had the right to do it.  there was not one country that could lay claim to the Nazi or Japanese war criminals.  they had committed crimes across the world.  less so with Saddam.  most of his crimes were in Iraq.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2007, 02:11:24 PM »

So Kathy!

I think I will let you get the last word, not because I agree with you but I don't think we can get closer to each other than we are and further will not lead to anything. Have a nice day, I hope you will be spared and your sons survive the madness.
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« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2007, 02:31:39 PM »

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hope you will be spared and your sons survive


thank you.  so do i.

conversation is never wasted.  thank you also for a good talk!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2007, 05:28:45 PM »

See Jorn:

You can agree to disagree on any subject - that is a wonderful concept. Sharing your ideas and culture is eye-opening to many other people from many other lands.

Below is some American Humor - it is not something I suspect you would enjoy, so please don't scroll down if you can't sleep at the site of sick humor then turn away now. But here is America we choose what we find funny or not, not because our culture or governments thinks it is in poor taste, but because we do.

These images are from the TV Show South-park, originally aired in 2002 - they have considered Saddam in bed with Satan for years and finally they get their wish.






















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« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2007, 11:30:26 PM »

Switzerland is a fascinating expamle. A neutral country for all intents and purposes, however every household and public building has a bomb shelter and every household has a firearm. It was interesting to me to see young blokes in casual clothes, standing on corners with a kit bag, waiting with their semi automatic military rifle slung over their shoulder. No one bating an eyelid, they may as well have been invisible. They were simply waiting for thier lift to annual military training.

Switzerland adopts the theory that a nation where every house has a firearm and a bomb shelter is very hard to conquer. I tend to agree and it has worked for them.

They are a society mature enough to be able to adopt this strategy. I dont think I could say the same for Australia.
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« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2007, 05:42:13 AM »

Mick,

From what I read the land of downunder is just as dangerous since firearms were outlawed as it was before.  The only difference is that the law abidding citizens no longer have a means to protect themselves while the criminals still have means of obtaining weapons.  The reports I've read state that the murder rate has not changed much post anit-gun in comparison to when gun ownership was allowed.

Like Jorn mentions, yes even Police can go nutty.  It's a very stressful job, I know, I had to retire after being injured 4 different times to the point I became disabled.  Some police officers get so stressed out from seeing the dirty side of life that they commit suicide with their duty weapon.  But regardless of which country of the world you live in, criminals keep getting guns while more and more citizens are made defenseless. 

One thing people overlook; Government has no obligation to prevent you from being harmed or killed, only a duty to bring the one who does you harm to justice in order to prevent anarchy.  Crime prevention is simply the existence of the police, government reacts to crime by investigating, arresting, and trying a law breaker.  If you expect government to shield you from harm you are delusional--they can't do it without assigning everyone a body guard and whose to say the body guard won't harm you.
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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2007, 10:15:03 AM »

about disarming the population.....  it does not keep criminals from getting an using guns.  what exactly would be A purpose of disarming a population?

I see no small amount of irony in the fact that the two countries that tried to take Europe by force, have now done it by constitution..... and without a shot fired.  How brilliant is that?  Convince all the countries that surrendering curacy, culture, and sovereignty is in their best interest.  Who can protest?  They have even taken away the knives.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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