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Author Topic: Saddam's Execution  (Read 4441 times)
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« on: December 29, 2006, 09:51:35 PM »

here is a link to abc about the execution.


http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2760282
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2006, 01:30:55 PM »

it's good that it's done.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2006, 01:38:37 PM »

The film footage released SO FAR is far from proof to anyone who is a conspiracy theorist though. Find a single image of him dropping through the gallows or swinging from a rope and I think you'll make a few more people who were terrified by this beast sleep better - We see him getting a rope around his neck, then cut to him in a body bag - I know more images will follow, but no one had problem posting images around the net of Americans having their lives snuffed out by Al Zawkari in the most gruesome way I know.

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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2006, 02:14:31 PM »

true.  i went to the site that usually has those pictures published ASAP.  they are not there yet.

the beheadings were meant to be published as propaganda.  perhaps this is meant to be kept a little quieter....at least until they know that the arab world will not erupt.  it appears that it will not.

i think that showing executions is a good thing.  it used to be done in this country.  i guess it is not PC....as i know i am not smiley
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2006, 07:36:02 PM »

Well theres video of the noose going around his neck so I expect more to follow.

The photograph of him dead is very interesting. Marks on the LHS of his face would indicate abrasions from the very large knot used. The right side of his face shows a severe rope mark to the RHS of his nose, I think caused from where the knot ended up. I deduce it may not have been the the most textbook of hangings. It seems the inital drop caused the noose to rotate to the other side of his neck.

These marks could have been caused by someone tugging on his legs of course.

They are not the marks of a beating after death, just rope marks.
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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2006, 07:57:54 PM »

So story is  over. Please tell your president not to start another.

Please John remove this threat. It harms me in my feelings that some are thinking state killing is OK, be who ever he is he has no right to play good. I will not answer further messages in around, nor PM or e-mail. I am definitly against State killing or human killing at all.
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« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2006, 08:48:40 PM »

Quote
Please John remove this threat. It harms me in my feelings that some are thinking state killing is OK, be who ever he is he has no right to play good. I will not answer further messages in around, nor PM or e-mail. I am definitly against State killing or human killing at all.

the great thing is that you have the right to express your opinion.  even one that some of us may disagree with.  i respect your opinion.  i hope you respect the fact the we wish to preserve the right for ALL to express how they feel?
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2006, 08:50:16 PM »

for those who are interested....a video is out.  looks like it was quick and clean.  not a very good recording as it was made with a cell phone or something similar.  he got better than he gave.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2006, 10:06:13 PM »

Jorn:

Sorry to tell you MUCH of the world thinks STATE KILLING IS FINE - AS DO I.

First, NO. I'm not removing this thread. Tired of removing threads, get over it.
Second, I'm tired of paying for 40,50,60 YEARS worth of room and board for LIFE IN PRISON inmates. If you are PROVEN GUILTY of murder, you should die - if there is ANY DOUBT then life makes sense. But with video tape evidence especially, or absolute evidence or if you plead guilty and pass a polygraph, then I'm happy enough that we HUMANELY send you to Hell with lethal injection.

Sadly, you come from a country where you have FAITH in the United Nations - MOST AMERICANS DO NOT. Personally, I wish they'd ship that whole building to your part of the world where it would be better loved. It is nothing but a burden on the citizens of NY who end up fighting for parking spots while alleged diplomats park any freaking' place they wish.

I don't want to sound nasty, but what would you do with Saddam, slap him on the wrist, try to rehabilitate him, let him live in a half-way house with other genocidal maniacs, then after 30 days release him with a ankle monitor? What foolishness.

Sorry we don't all live in Utopia, we live where people are killed for no reason, where scum has taken over many streets, where we have cities where I tell my wife to RUN EVERY TRAFFIC LIGHT and ONLY STOP if/when a cop pulls her over. That isn't paranoia, that is reality. The deadliest city in the U.S. is Camden, NJ only 40 minutes from here - truth be told, a white man don't drive through Camden at night unless he is scoring dope or a dead-man, or both. That's not racist, it's reality.

Nope Jorn.... This ain't going away - people have opinions and the coffee house is as good a place to share them as any. We have 3 thousand dead soldiers lost fighting a war that most of us don't fully understand, but we support our troops no matter what, and beyond the dead are the 10s of thousand physically and mentally wounded from this Godawful war. Don't tell Americans NOT to talk about Hussein or the War or anything else "you think" the USELESS UN can settle if given enough time - you can tell us all about it if you wish (that is why we have open exchange here) but DON'T TELL US NOT TO TALK ABOUT IT. On this one we could not disagree more - you are welcome to counter-point anyone's opinion, especially mine - here in America, and even in an International forum, the UN can kiss our BUTTS, you though can feel free to disagree.
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« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2006, 01:38:51 AM »

I think John is for free speech and the death penalty, for those of you that dont like long posts. grin

Whew Go Boss!!!! shocked
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« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2006, 03:11:05 AM »

Gee Mick... Thought I said that  rolleyes that's what happens when I write short posts - lol.

A last thought, we have talked about before is that when the soldier pulled Saddam out of his Spiderhole, the soldier had 3 options:

1) Take the $250,000 in US Money Saddam offered him and walk away.
2) Shoot Saddam in the chest a few times to save us all a long trial.
3) Bring him back for full medical attention and humane treatment.

He/they did the third - this alone says a lot about American Armed Forces.

I don't think I would have been such a kind and humane soldier after turning over every dust covered pile of junk, not knowing what was booby-trapped or not for all those many many months.

That's the point I guess, we can assume that a mission is just and that the goal is just, and to the men and women in uniform on the streets of Iraq trying to make a difference, no matter how much change for the better they see, they always know that a car bomb is somewhere being loaded to the hilt and on a collision course with someone - but they still do their jobs, often recapturing the same towns and dwellings over and over. There is something magical in service of this kind - I can't imagine fighting someone hell-bent on destroying themselves and also killing as many as they can take with them.

I'm just like everyone else here, I want our troops home as fast and safe as possible - hopefully after making a difference in a country where tyranical rule was replaced with civil unrest, territorial battle-lines in the sand and (the dreaded word) Insurgents running amuck.

God Bless Our Troops in the New Year.

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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2006, 12:45:08 PM »

Please remember as a Dane we are used to and proud of free speech and are willing to fight for it. I am also proud of being member of a nation against the death penalty.

Sadam trial was a joke, and his death is changing nothing in the pour country. It is not setting a period for his regime because the regime was already out of duty when he was digged out of his hole, in opposite to the Romanian Chaucenko (I forgot his  name)execution and the dead of Hitler.

Have a nice and prosperous New Year with a lot of beekeeping activity. I hope you will get your sons and daughters back alive.
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« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2006, 01:32:49 PM »

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Sadam trial was a joke

we do not get perfection from our older and established governments.  should we expect perfection from a new government, with a new constitution, trying to establish the rule of law where it has not existed before?  the facts were not in dispute.  perhaps the procedure could have been better.

Quote
and his death is changing nothing in the pour country

i disagree.  it ended once and for all the thought that saddam might be allowed to make a deal and return to power.  it gave the millions of families who had lost members to his regime a sense of closure...and not to be discounted, a chance to feel that there was some revenge gotten on their behalf.

Quote
Please remember as a Dane we are used to and proud of free speech and are willing to fight for it. I am also proud of being member of a nation against the death penalty

on the second point.  that is the right of your country.  we have states in our country that do not have the death penalty.  some people don't want it.

on the second point.  you have a growing minority in your country that does not believe in free speech and does believe in the death penalty.  how will you handle it?  from the outside, it looks like a pretty serious problem that could change the nature of your culture forever.

i do not understand resistance to the death penalty.  i will give you my point of view.  you can take it for what it's worth smiley

if i am attacked by someone and i kill them, that's perfectly legal.  in fact, i would be applauded for protecting myself.  however, if i am attacked and i fail to protect myself....if i am killed and later the killer is caught, why would the state not have the right and obligation to do what i failed to do?  they not only have the obligation to protect society, but my family has the right to revenge.

for some reason, in our mushy multicultural societies, the word "revenge" has become a dirty word.  i think the words revenge and justice are often interchangeable.


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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2006, 01:54:34 PM »

Very well said John and Kathy. The deeds and atrocties that Hussein commited could have no other justice than death! Although I think in this case,and not often do I feel this way, that stoning may have been appropriate because when he gassed his own people it left many to die a slow agonizing death.
Ans that is my thought on this subject.
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« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2006, 03:05:18 PM »

Jorn:

Glad you decided to take place in a debate of ideas. It is obvious that our generations and our nations think differently, but as KathyP said, we have the interesting SUB-DIVISION (so invisible to most it is only a "welcome to a different state sign) on the highway. States have individual law on issues that the Federal Government has chosen are worthy of non-intervention.

Whether a criminal dies is surely one of them, it can differ greatly from state to state even the time served for nearly every crime. But ASK SADDAM how FOOLISH his trial was, oppps you can't cause the murdering dirt-bad is dead and now buried where hopefully the Hands of Hell reach-up and drag him through a thousand miles of rock to the fires of eternity.

KEN: Stoning or Nerve (Mustard I think was one of his favorites - Carin just had too short a shelf life for Saddam) would have been a good alternative too. May Jorn is right, since the trial was a joke, release him to the people and let them decide - if he lives, we pull out today, if he's dead in about 4 seconds, we stay this miserable but hopefully waning battle against the evil Saddam en-stowed into so many in his land.

I'm sickened Jorn, and grab your barf (vomit) bag that we HAVE the DEATH PENALTY in my state of NEW JERSEY but No one has been executed since 1963, although a statute reinstating capital punishment for murder has been in force since 1982. Historically, at least 361 people were executed by the state between the execution of a slave named Tom for rape in 1690 and the execution of Ralph Hudson for murder on January 22, 1963. But since the reinstatement 43 years ago, NOT ONE PERSON has died (except of old age) on New Jersey Death Rows. That sickens me to think that the most hideous of humans, the beasts who kill and destroy life's with no remorse are getting three square meals, continuous medical care and NEVER having to worry about when THEIR time is up. Yep, it sickens me.

Sorry you think I am barbaric, but I'll add one thing else to what Kathy mentioned, if anyone ever hurt my family, I'd spend every penny I have to bring that low-life to SELF JUSTICE, I promise he would be begging for the police. I'll not get too graphic on this, except to say - we give police EXTRODINARY RIGHTS, they carry weapons with the right to use them as necessary, they can speed to catch criminals, and exceed the law in many ways (all the while working within a tight restraint of rules that would boggle the minds of ordinary people) and these police are at the front line of a very long process that hopefully puts the right person behind bars and dishes to them WHATEVER the land of the laws is to its extreme.

I have faith in that system, most of us do - when I see a police car, I feel safe, not scared. If I am pulled over, I turn off my engine, place my car in park, put my hands on my steering wheel and wait for instructions. It is called being a smart citizen. When someone runs from the police, the have now began a voyage of unimaginable end - what happen to them is great determined by how stupid they are.

Good people rarely see the death penalty Jorn, even the bad ones rarely do - but for every bad one that dies, there are THOUSANDS on death row waiting their turn - hopefully someday we'll all get our act together and kill off those cockroaches of society UNLESS of course YOU WANT THEM AIR-MAILED to your Country. See, when the problem is your own, you see things a bit different. I see me sitting over the kitchen sink, lighting $100 bills and watching the shes flow down the drain to keep this scum alive. I can't put it any better than that.
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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2006, 03:05:51 PM »

Just for the record: I have never defended Sadam!!! end of this story.

and now after he is killed, what about all the other victims, are they getting justice? I do not think so, they will just be forgotten. The Iraq will more likely explode, I am afraid off, and that you have not seen that untill  now is just because of the muslim holidays, and the pilgrims to Mekka. But OK its a guess maybe adding to the terror.
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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2006, 03:06:55 PM »

Boy and I thought the threat about the guy burning the bee swarm was a going to
be a flamewar. Maybe if we can keep this thread up we can bring back that thread.

As I once heard the best way to get people going is talk gun, politics or
abortion. This one falls under politics.

Clausewitz's description of war as a "continuation of politics by other means."

I tend to be a creature of logic. So I will state some logic items.
1. Saddam was leader who torture and killed people.
2. The war in Iraq was not due to 9/11.
3. The US invaded Iraq and removed it's leader with false and misleading reasoning.
4. The US invasion has created a civil war in Iraq.
5. The US invasion of Iraq has cost over 2,900 US solider lives to date.
6. Saddam's death will not change anything to do with Al Qaeda.

The state of the death of the former Iraq leader will not change anything.
Chances are that if the republicans held congress there would be a serious move
to invade Iran.

I support the soliders and want them to come home safetly, but I do not support
the politics that sent them there.

And yes free speech is a wonderful thing. Just ask Jorn about some cartoons that
were published a while back.


Sincerely,
Brendhan
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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2006, 03:45:07 PM »

Brendan:

The burning of the bees was RECKLESS and DANGEROUS and SICK - having some idiot tossing open cans of paint-thinner, then open cans of gasoline on an open fire is IRRESPONCIBLE for anyone to propagate. He's lucky him, the camera guy and his whole house didn't go up in flames. I'm hoping you get off that topic and see it does not have a place for anyone here.

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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2006, 04:42:14 PM »

Quote
1. Saddam was leader who torture and killed people.
2. The war in Iraq was not due to 9/11.
3. The US invaded Iraq and removed it's leader with false and misleading reasoning.
4. The US invasion has created a civil war in Iraq.
5. The US invasion of Iraq has cost over 2,900 US solider lives to date.
6. Saddam's death will not change anything to do with


1. true
2. true...although iraq was a state supporter of terrorism, and so one of many legitimate targets.
3. false.  the us invaded iraq based on the best available intel from international sources AND based on the fact that they had not complied with the terms of the 91 cease fire.
4. technically, it's probably not a civil war yet.  most of the country is peaceful and is prospering.  incomes are up 300% and GDP is up  14+%. that would not be happening in a nation wide civil war.
5.  and.........?
6.  maybe not.

there is a book you might enjoy.  its "Secret History of the Iraq War" by Yossef Bodansky. he's not a bush fan.  he's not a conservative (to my knowledge).  the book outlines the pre-war intel from many arab countries among them Jordan.  it's well cross referenced and pretty eye opening.  we don't know how much we don't know!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2006, 04:54:43 PM »

one other thought and i'll quit hogging the posts smiley

i do believe that a good many problems can be solved by means other than war.  in order to do that, we must have direct conversations.  you can not talk around a problem and find a solution.  off hand, i can not think of any problems that have been solved by "diplospeak".  sometimes the honest exchange of ideas is difficult.  it takes a great deal of mental toughness to have an uncomfortable conversation.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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