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Author Topic: How is the russian bee good compared to others  (Read 4342 times)
tom
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« on: December 27, 2006, 02:30:00 PM »

Hello

  I have seen alot about the russian bee and how hard it is to introduce them to other bee races. What make them so hard to introduce and are they as gentle as the others and can they be the race to take over the bee industry. I have all carniolans and they are very gentle and they have shown to handle mites pretty good as others as long as you don't wait to long mine seem to be doing very well since i treated them for mites but could the russian bee if crossed with carniolans be a much better bee since they both can fly in low temps.


Tom
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2006, 02:46:05 PM »


This is good to read, a Dutch research http://www.mamamoer.nl/ddb/blz/rapportprimoengels2002.pdf
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2006, 07:21:06 PM »

>What make them so hard to introduce

Pheromones.

> and are they as gentle as the others

The are a bit more defensive in different ways.  The ones I've had, at least, seem to like to head butt and follow more, but don't seem more inclined to sting nor more inclined to get a boiling over kind of scenario.

> and can they be the race to take over the bee industry.

Doubtful.  They will never have enough bees in February for the Almonds.  They are frugal, but frugal isn't always the best for some things (like early pollenation).

> I have all carniolans and they are very gentle and they have shown to handle mites pretty good as others as long as you don't wait to long mine seem to be doing very well since i treated them for mites but could the russian bee if crossed with carniolans be a much better bee since they both can fly in low temps.

Russians ARE carniolans.  Just carniolans from a particular area.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
lively Bee's
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2006, 08:52:16 PM »

My russians are very gentle I work them with no gloves or bee suit just like all of my other hives.  I can tell you this they do not seem to like the weed eater at all I can mow around all my Italians and its like they dont even know I have been there but the russians will be in "defense" mode when I get close to them they also react to the bush hog I get 30 - 40 out on the front of the hive and 4 - 5 out flying about in the air but they have never "attacked" I liked them so well I am adding 15 more russian packages this year.  While they dont build up in the spring I have noticed that they will be out and about at 38 - 40 degrees and my italians are no were to bee seen.

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tom
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2006, 11:58:50 PM »

Howdy

  So far i see the big difference so they are carniolans but from a different area and they do suffer like the rest when it comes to mites if not treated in time. I have been doing some research and it is hard to believe that if you want to get pure queens it cost you a arm and a leg. It is so sad that these breeder queens cost more then a package swarm does i guess the breeders don't think about us small guys that may one day want to be breeders ourselves. Really 3 to 400 dollars for a queen bee and what if see is killed by the workers or something else happen thats alot of hard earn money gone to waste in my book no wonder alot of guy's are trying to raise their own queens. But i am interested in trying at least one one hive of these bees does anyone know where a good russian queen from i am going to try to introduce her into one of my carnioaln mixed hives and see how it goes.


Tom
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2006, 06:46:28 AM »

As far as mites go, I have not seen any less mites, (but I probably didn't have pure stock either) but they seem to survive a higher level of mites, so I think they just have a better immune system.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2006, 08:21:07 AM »

Howdy

Really 3 to 400 dollars for a queen bee and what if see is killed by the workers or something else happen thats alot of hard earn money gone to waste in my book no wonder alot of guy's are trying to raise their own queens.

I have understand that Russian is eager to renew it's queen.  In Canada they have reseached that Russian package bees renew queen easily .

Soon you have crossbreeded queen in the hive.
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Finsky
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2006, 08:23:31 AM »

Here is information from Canada, date 2005
http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4922
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sean
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2006, 11:36:16 AM »

is the climate a big factor in bee breeding? can you take these russian bees and rear them in a tropical climate?
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amymcg
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2006, 06:24:36 PM »

I have one hive of Russians. They are good producers, mine have a tendency to like to crawl around, up my pants, inside my t-shirts, I have to totally tape all my sleeves and legs when I work that hive. Otherwise, they aren't any more defensive or agressive.  They definitely do NOT like the lawn mower.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2006, 06:43:44 PM »

i can't add anything.  I'll second a few things.  they do fly at a lower temp.  i did notice the tendency to re-queen.  i had multiple queens by the end of summer, and am sure that i have quite a mix of breeds in there now judging by color.  they seem to follow farther.  today i had a run in with them and they were after me all the way back to the barn.  they do crawl into every opening, but i have had them in my shirt and pants and not been stung.  my hive grew like crazy and produced more honey than i expected for a 1st year.  mine did not mind the tractor, weed eater, or cats sitting on the hive....even swatting at them.  mite problem was minimal, but i did treat in the fall.

this was my first hive.  i was happy with them.  i do not think i can call it a Russian hive anymore.  i did not order Russians this year because of the cost.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
tom
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2006, 10:13:58 PM »

Hello

  I have been doing some reasearch on this bee and it is as Mr. Bush staed they are just carniolans but from some where different. I also have found a breeder that raises them and sells the queens and they are good just like any other bee this may explain the hard time i had requeening my hives with Nwc canri's queens whne i switched over from my mix breed. My bees did not take to the NWC queens and i had to make sure they stayed in the cage for several days before turning them loose. I also have been thinking of trying some russians this summer and see how they do in nucs and try raising my own queens to requeen feral swarms when i get some.

Tom
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Finsky
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 02:52:55 AM »

is the climate a big factor in bee breeding? can you take these russian bees and rear them in a tropical climate?

European bee was not succesfull in tropical weather . That is why they took African bees to South America.
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Cindi
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 10:10:04 AM »

Think about it.  The Carniolan (why are they called Russian anyways, a nickname?  sounds like they are CARNIOLAN and I get that they are "Carniolan" breed) bees are known for their ability to overwinter in small clusters, consuming low food amounts, they forage earlier because they can stand the colder weather.  They are nicknamed the "spring honey flow bees".  This allows the bees to take advantage of the early honey flows in agricultural European countries.  That is known fact, if you read even a little about the breed.

So, I don't get it, why would beekeepers want to take a bee that is originally climatized to the cold European weather and take it to the tropics.  In my mind, that would be like trying to take a polar bear to live in the hot southern part of the world.  And yes, they probably do, but the bears are kept cold.  Oh well, I just don't get it.  Great day.  Cindi
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Trot
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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2006, 12:37:13 PM »

Cindi, it is confusing isn't it?  I too had tried to suggest once, that taking Russian bees and breed them in southern parts was not a good idea. Boy, that was a wrong move. It got most beeks really upset. 
It is just human nature, I guess, to take something and force it to conform to their wishes, their will... When thing look OK to them, than begins tribal beating of one's chest and a feather in ones cap...
If nature intended, for one bee to populate the whole world, it would be so. But we know different - or do we?

One more: Russian are Russian!  Carniolan are Carniolan!  If they look the same to us, that does not make them so.  They are distinctly different bees - indigenous to the regions from where they hail.
At least they were... Now they are found everywhere and they shouldn't be called that anymore...
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2006, 12:44:55 PM »

>Think about it.  The Carniolan (why are they called Russian anyways, a nickname?

The typical Carniolan bees here are not from Russia.  The "Russian" bees have been recently imported from the Primorsky region of Russia because they have been dealing with the Varroa for longer and the theory is that they should be more resistant to the mites.

So "Russians" are Carniolan bees recently imported from the Primorsky region of Russia and "Carniolans" are decended from Carniolans that have been here in North American for a very long time.  If you buy a "Carniolan" you won't be buying a "Russian" and if you buy a "Russian" it won't be the same strain of Carniolan as what is sold as a "Carniolan".
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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Finsky
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« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2006, 12:48:04 PM »

My information is that Russians are crossbreeded bees from Estern Siberia.  They are not from one race.

Russian bee in America is quite unstabile, crosbreeded group and not yet ready as race.
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kathyp
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« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2006, 01:26:51 PM »

Quote
that taking Russian bees and breed them in southern parts was not a good idea

that wasn't the part of your post that upset some.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
kathyp
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« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2006, 01:29:07 PM »

i wonder the same thing about the bees i get in package from california.  the ones i got last year are good, but it must be a bit of a shock to them to come up here to the wet and cold.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Trot
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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2006, 01:58:58 PM »

With all due respect - Why should I think about it?

It is common knowledge that no "western bee can survive in eastern Russia, especially not in the region of Siberia. In Eastern Russia the surviving bee is the one which raises brood very late! Carniolan is completely opposite...
Carniolan bee originated in Slovenia and S. Austria which was before WW I  the same country, called Carniola.
-------------------------------

In other North European countries there has been a tendency to move over to Carniolan bees, although in recent years an increasing interest has been shown in re-establishing the North European Dark Bee, A.m.mellifera, in most countries in which it is autochthonous (the original sub-species). The move to Carniolans or Italians is unlikely to progress as far as Eastern Russia or Central Siberia, where the harsh Winters and late Springs may demand a hardy bee with a late build-up. Beekeeping in these regions is said to be possible where the rivers are frozen for less than six months in the year, in spite of the severe Winters. Although the post-glacial migration of A.m.mellifera did not progress beyond the Ural Mountains, beekeeping using the North European bee has been practised in Siberia since the early part of last century. Only in the easternmost province is a different race of honeybee kept; the Ukrainian bee, A.m.macedonica, was introduced into Ussuria towards the end of the l9th century

-----------------------------------


Perhaps one should read this to really understand the origin of bee races since the last ice age. . . . .

Link:
http://www.angus.co.uk/bibba/bibborig.html#Apis%20mellifera%20carnica


Regards,
Trot
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