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Author Topic: How is the russian bee good compared to others  (Read 4633 times)
Jarhead
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2006, 02:09:16 PM »

Nice article on the Russian honey bee on, w-w.USDA.Gov. Search: Honey Bee.
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Finsky
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« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2006, 04:34:04 PM »


Perhaps one should read this to really understand the origin of bee races since the last ice age. . . . .

Link:
http://www.angus.co.uk/bibba/bibborig.html#Apis%20mellifera%20carnica



This is very logical report, but now gene mapping have revealed that mellifera development is very different.
http://researchnews.wsu.edu/physical/149.html

.
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Cindi
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2006, 11:00:30 AM »

Cindi, it is confusing isn't it?  I too had tried to suggest once, that taking Russian bees and breed them in southern parts was not a good idea. Boy, that was a wrong move. It got most beeks really upset. 
It is just human nature, I guess, to take something and force it to conform to their wishes, their will... When thing look OK to them, than begins tribal beating of one's chest and a feather in ones cap...
If nature intended, for one bee to populate the whole world, it would be so. But we know different - or do we?

One more: Russian are Russian!  Carniolan are Carniolan!  If they look the same to us, that does not make them so.  They are distinctly different bees - indigenous to the regions from where they hail.
At least they were... Now they are found everywhere and they shouldn't be called that anymore...
Trot, well I still don't get it.  Why would so many people get down right annoyed with your suggestion of taking the Russian bees way down south.  That makes no sense to have this kind of contempt from people.  Oh well, we cannot make the sense of the world itself, (or can we).  Oh brother....

Indeed, I certainly did not realize that Russian are Russian, Carniolan are Carniolan.  But....we know that the Carniolan breed originated in the country of Slovenia (Trot, isn't that where you originate from too, seems in the cobwebs of my mind, I recall your mentioning that).  This breed is so good at living in very cold winters, overwinter well in the small cluster, and build up so fast in the spring.  I don't know why people would want them in the warmer wintered areas.  Makes no sense.  Man, can I go on about stuff at times.

I have Carniolan (well, they are probably not true to the breed anymore though, through supercedure, swarming, etc.)  maybe a couple of hives maybe are .  We have pretty cold weather in the wintertime, so I feel that I am justified with the "natural" cold time that maybe this breed might be more used to, even if it has been raised in this country, or even raised in a warm one.  Ooops, I hope that I am not getting people annoyed at me too, oh well, if I am, life goes on.

Did you ever see the documentary on how the hideous enormous yellow jackets in the Asian country destroy the honeybee colonies?  I was apalled that such an insect could do such devastation.  But the bees got smart.  They would lure the scout yellow jacket into their hive body and raise the temperature so much by their thoracic muscle movements, that they burned the yellow jacket all up, it seems the yellow jacket could not stand the higher temperature that the bees themselves could emit and withstand.  Smart bees, how they learn to deal with their enemies.  You have a great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Trot
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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2006, 01:08:34 PM »

Well Cindi, I do not know why people act, as they do?  perhaps they feel threatened?  Their way of thinking is threatened?  I have no answer to that one...

About the wrong bees in wrong places? I use simplistic terms cause if one wants to know exactly why - there are numerous places on the web where such things are explained better what I can manage.
Cindy, bees have been on this earth for a helluva long time and are largely indigenous to their areas. (All this through millions of years of evolution!) Golden colored around equator,(roughly) and darker as one gets higher up on the mountains and/or towards the poles.
Man, in his own wisdom, decided that he would take bees from the Mediterranean lush gardens and keep them in Canada, or Scandinavia for that matter.
It works. Bees are tough!  But, that was not all that man wanted... He houses them in all kinds of boxes on 11 different size combs. Now, we have nothing but problems on top of problems!  Bees of all sorts, with bugs of all sorts.
To fix what we have done - we keep pro-ping up those poor bees yearly, just trying to keep them till next Spring. Some with greater, others with lesser success.
Every few years, mother nature tries to tell us that our ways are not working.  Bees simply disappear!  This year is one of those years... Of course I wont even get into the crap that we are enveloping our poor earth with...
There you have it - is that why some get upset?
But, I'm Happy to say, that more and more beekeepers are "reinventing the wheel!"  All is not lost yet.
Hopefully? 
SC/natural comb, bees appropriate for the area, locally raised queens, local/feral swarms, etc... About all - no medicines, poisons or whatever one calls it...
Perhaps someday soon, they will also realize that spring importation of package bees from Australia and New Zealand is not the way to go. But, it's hard to buck the all-mighty dollar, isn't it?

Yes Cindi, I do come from Slovenia and if you visit the link below you will See why I get, sometimes, carried away when it comes to races of bees.  In Slovenia we have Carniolan bees ONLY, even though Italy is just across the road!  Our bees do not have any yellow rings on them...  It is all about breeding - not just having bees - in the box and let it be what it may!?

I too was once comercial keeper. I too had bought a lot of packages in Spring. I knew it was wrong - but that was the only source to be had. When varroa came and the boarder closed, I and many others went by the wayside. Before it was hard business cause on every step there were bees and beekeepers. Now there is none. I can drive all week and never see a hive...
Only a few are still holding on in our parts... But nobody imports anymore...

I envy you - your Carniolans?! I have Italians, cause that is the bee that is already acclimatized to my area. I do plan to perhaps acquire some dark bees - preferably from a wild source...

Did see those Japanese Giant Hornets. Yes, bees are very smart and they too ball their own queen - same as you saw those "cooking" the hornets.

http://www.carniolan.com/uk/caracter-uk.htm
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2006, 02:31:23 PM »

Quote
Well Cindi, I do not know why people act, as they do?  perhaps they feel threatened?  Their way of thinking is threatened?  I have no answer to that one...

oh for gods sake.  i really tried not to respond to this but i'll risk getting another post pulled.

it was your anti-american rant that angry people off.  as far as i know your post is still up.  go back and read it.  my response got pulled.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Trot
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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2006, 02:54:05 PM »

Please, leave God out of this!  Perhaps a cold shower could help?

Regards,
Trot
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Cindi
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« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2007, 12:50:38 AM »

Trot, right, it was indeed the Japanese Giant Hornets, not Yellowjackets.  Got a little confused with the species.  Oh well.

I suspect that eventually all my Carniolan will be Italian.  I do not mind a hither or dither.  The Carniolan queens are very impressive looking though, I do like darker colours, that pertains to almost everything that has a colour.

I do understand that Slovenia ONLY has Carniolan, right, I will read the site, it is worth reading about, I can imagine.  When I first started with beekeeping, my Asian instructor, who runs over 1,200 hives, purchased Carniolans for us.  He imports from Australia every year and has alot of faith in that breed.  I trust his instinct.  He always buys extra packages for his students and others that like this breed.  I did extensive research on this breed when I first began learning, and the traits that the Carniolan has are very tempting to me.  The only thing that I can see that is the problem with them is because of the early spring build up, they are prone to swarming.  BUT, I have a much deeper understanding of swarm prevention that I am hoping that I can manage these ladies as well as I can to prevent this from occurring in my apiary.  Time will tell that tale. 

I found one of the interesting points of this breed is the longer tongue, hence its ability to get deeper into the nectaries of plants I would imagine?   I also liked that the site proclaimed that the Carniolan is not prone to be robbers, because their sense of orientation is excellent and they do not drift very much.  Overwintering in small clusters, consuming less food, low propolis gathers, clean wax, (now some may prefer higher propolis gathering), but I would imagine that unless one is in the propolis gathering interest, low propolis gatherers are preferred (LOL), anything to keep the sticky fingers unsticky.

These are all pretty admirable traits.  Again, SWARM, that can be good, that can be bad.  Depends I guess on what is good or bad.  In olden times I understand the beekeepers wanted the colonies to swarm.  Hmm..food for thought.  Have a great rest of this day (well, I am at 9:50 PM, the last day of the year at this moment), you are now in 2007, different times, different spaces.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Trot
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« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2007, 11:55:19 AM »

Well, if you can purchase Carniolan queens than you can continue on with them. But, even purchased ones, will eventually be - whatever...  One can not control the drones that mate with the queen. Unless they are artificially inseminated with pure drone sperm.
In my case, keeping a strain of bees pure is not a problem, cause there is no other bees for miles and miles.

Yes Cindi! Slovenia is a birth place of Carniolan bee and they will keep it so. No other bees are to be found there. Of course, Carniolan bees are nowadays also found in Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Serbia and in some parts of Romania. Those are not pure though...
Slovenia is currently having some issues with neighbouring Austria regarding the Carniolan bee. Austria is trying to claim the rights for this bee. Same as is the case for the famous Lipizzaner horse, which of course originates from the place called Lipica in Slovenia. But since they were for ever being supplied to the famous riding school in Wiena and some shady deals at the start of independence for Slovenia, it looks like the Austrians will claim Lipizzaner horses as their own - although the only place they can be successfully reared is in Lipica, Karst region of Slovenia. (Has to do with soil, grass and water!)

You are right, they do like to swarm.  See, back home, they were bred for swarming. Years ago, nearly every household in Slovenia had in their garden a bee-house. Bees were their source of sweetener and wax for candles. Honey was not their main purpose of raising bees. To make a bit of pocket change, they were selling swarms all over Europe and the world.
But, with proper management, swarming nowadays is not a problem. One has to stay a step ahead of ones bees...

For those keepers who reside in areas with red-clover - Carniolan bee is a God-sent, cause of their longer tongue...
You seem to be right on top of things Cindi, which is good.
I too wish you great day and all the best in 2007...

Regards,
Trot



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Michael Bush
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« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2007, 01:53:43 PM »

>Same as is the case for the famous Lipizzaner horse, which of course originates from the place called Lipica in Slovenia.

Of course.

>But since they were for ever being supplied to the famous riding school in Wiena and some shady deals at the start of independence for Slovenia, it looks like the Austrians will claim Lipizzaner horses as their own

They have been for a long time despite the actual origins.  But then Lipizzaners are mostly Iberian blood from Spain.  Smiley

> although the only place they can be successfully reared is in Lipica, Karst region of Slovenia. (Has to do with soil, grass and water!)

They seem to thive all over the world actually.  There are a fair number here in the US.

Nothing is quite as regal, elegant, graceful, intelligent, and gorgeous as any of the Baroque breeds including the Lipizzaners, Andalusians, Lusitanos and Friesians.

http://www.bushfarms.com/friesians.htm
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Michael Bush
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Trot
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2007, 03:25:46 PM »

Yes Mr Bush, all of this is true. For hundreds of years the heard was traveling across many countries and many famous horses were becoming  part of "boosting the blood!"
In WWII General Paton rescued the last heard from Germans (was even so seen in a movie)and some were sent to America all but eleven were returned to Lipica by the allies. Some they sent to Italy and some to Wiena. As saviors, they saw it right to distribute their butty as they saw fit...

Especially in recent times, one can find almost every country on earth throwing in the pot their 2 cents worth, in a bid to have their names associated with this handsome and famous horse.
Yes, they are found almost all over the world, but periodically blood has to be re-infused from the original heard to rejuvenate those which are spread world wide.
(something similar to true queen breeding.)
I'm  not a horse expert, (don't even particularly like them) but I do follow the fight, to let the credit go to Lipica, ( Lipizza, as called by Austro-Hungarian empire) from where the name for this horse originates.
Why do you think is so? Surely other countries have more clout, prestige and money to name them to their liking?
One has to go back, right in to the roots, to really see why . But outside Slovenia that is not particularly just, or/and in fairnes to Slovenian, possible...

This Karst horse, (so first called) is one of the oldest horses on record. In Roman times this horse carried goods to ports of Trieste and Venice. through the centuries, they were of course bread to numerous breeds - BUT, those breeds did not have any dominant influence on the Karst horse. Their steadiness , speed, grace, intelligence and beauty remained intact to this day.
The exception were the Arab horses. Those gave their names to the six lines which remain in Lipica stud today!
In 1580 some stallions from Spain were imported and also a white Andalusian stallion.
But none of that had no intent to change, or alter the Karst line!

Mares, they are bred in 16 strains, though.

Those Lipizzaner's are named by traditional system. Stallion gets two names, mares only one. In other words, each hoarse has in its name registered the strict line of their ancestors. When horses are one year old, letter " L " is branded in its left cheek, designating it a Lipica thoroughbred, born on that stud farm!

And lastly. I have been in Lipica on numerous occasions. Talked to breeders and trainers and yes, they unanimously maintain that the key to the uniqueness of this Karst horse is the soil, grass, water and (yes hard to swallow) - the air they breathe...

Regards,
Trot

Regards,
Trot

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Trot
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« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2007, 03:54:30 PM »

I forgot this:


http://www.uvi.si/eng/slovenia/background-information/lipizzaners/

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2007, 04:59:50 PM »

It's kind of hard to argue with the fact that the breed carries the name of where it originated...
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Michael Bush
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