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Author Topic: How is the russian bee good compared to others  (Read 4465 times)
tom
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« on: December 27, 2006, 02:30:00 PM »

Hello

  I have seen alot about the russian bee and how hard it is to introduce them to other bee races. What make them so hard to introduce and are they as gentle as the others and can they be the race to take over the bee industry. I have all carniolans and they are very gentle and they have shown to handle mites pretty good as others as long as you don't wait to long mine seem to be doing very well since i treated them for mites but could the russian bee if crossed with carniolans be a much better bee since they both can fly in low temps.


Tom
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2006, 02:46:05 PM »


This is good to read, a Dutch research http://www.mamamoer.nl/ddb/blz/rapportprimoengels2002.pdf
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2006, 07:21:06 PM »

>What make them so hard to introduce

Pheromones.

> and are they as gentle as the others

The are a bit more defensive in different ways.  The ones I've had, at least, seem to like to head butt and follow more, but don't seem more inclined to sting nor more inclined to get a boiling over kind of scenario.

> and can they be the race to take over the bee industry.

Doubtful.  They will never have enough bees in February for the Almonds.  They are frugal, but frugal isn't always the best for some things (like early pollenation).

> I have all carniolans and they are very gentle and they have shown to handle mites pretty good as others as long as you don't wait to long mine seem to be doing very well since i treated them for mites but could the russian bee if crossed with carniolans be a much better bee since they both can fly in low temps.

Russians ARE carniolans.  Just carniolans from a particular area.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2006, 08:52:16 PM »

My russians are very gentle I work them with no gloves or bee suit just like all of my other hives.  I can tell you this they do not seem to like the weed eater at all I can mow around all my Italians and its like they dont even know I have been there but the russians will be in "defense" mode when I get close to them they also react to the bush hog I get 30 - 40 out on the front of the hive and 4 - 5 out flying about in the air but they have never "attacked" I liked them so well I am adding 15 more russian packages this year.  While they dont build up in the spring I have noticed that they will be out and about at 38 - 40 degrees and my italians are no were to bee seen.

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tom
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2006, 11:58:50 PM »

Howdy

  So far i see the big difference so they are carniolans but from a different area and they do suffer like the rest when it comes to mites if not treated in time. I have been doing some research and it is hard to believe that if you want to get pure queens it cost you a arm and a leg. It is so sad that these breeder queens cost more then a package swarm does i guess the breeders don't think about us small guys that may one day want to be breeders ourselves. Really 3 to 400 dollars for a queen bee and what if see is killed by the workers or something else happen thats alot of hard earn money gone to waste in my book no wonder alot of guy's are trying to raise their own queens. But i am interested in trying at least one one hive of these bees does anyone know where a good russian queen from i am going to try to introduce her into one of my carnioaln mixed hives and see how it goes.


Tom
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2006, 06:46:28 AM »

As far as mites go, I have not seen any less mites, (but I probably didn't have pure stock either) but they seem to survive a higher level of mites, so I think they just have a better immune system.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2006, 08:21:07 AM »

Howdy

Really 3 to 400 dollars for a queen bee and what if see is killed by the workers or something else happen thats alot of hard earn money gone to waste in my book no wonder alot of guy's are trying to raise their own queens.

I have understand that Russian is eager to renew it's queen.  In Canada they have reseached that Russian package bees renew queen easily .

Soon you have crossbreeded queen in the hive.
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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2006, 08:23:31 AM »

Here is information from Canada, date 2005
http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4922
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sean
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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2006, 11:36:16 AM »

is the climate a big factor in bee breeding? can you take these russian bees and rear them in a tropical climate?
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2006, 06:24:36 PM »

I have one hive of Russians. They are good producers, mine have a tendency to like to crawl around, up my pants, inside my t-shirts, I have to totally tape all my sleeves and legs when I work that hive. Otherwise, they aren't any more defensive or agressive.  They definitely do NOT like the lawn mower.
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kathyp
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2006, 06:43:44 PM »

i can't add anything.  I'll second a few things.  they do fly at a lower temp.  i did notice the tendency to re-queen.  i had multiple queens by the end of summer, and am sure that i have quite a mix of breeds in there now judging by color.  they seem to follow farther.  today i had a run in with them and they were after me all the way back to the barn.  they do crawl into every opening, but i have had them in my shirt and pants and not been stung.  my hive grew like crazy and produced more honey than i expected for a 1st year.  mine did not mind the tractor, weed eater, or cats sitting on the hive....even swatting at them.  mite problem was minimal, but i did treat in the fall.

this was my first hive.  i was happy with them.  i do not think i can call it a Russian hive anymore.  i did not order Russians this year because of the cost.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
tom
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2006, 10:13:58 PM »

Hello

  I have been doing some reasearch on this bee and it is as Mr. Bush staed they are just carniolans but from some where different. I also have found a breeder that raises them and sells the queens and they are good just like any other bee this may explain the hard time i had requeening my hives with Nwc canri's queens whne i switched over from my mix breed. My bees did not take to the NWC queens and i had to make sure they stayed in the cage for several days before turning them loose. I also have been thinking of trying some russians this summer and see how they do in nucs and try raising my own queens to requeen feral swarms when i get some.

Tom
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2006, 02:52:55 AM »

is the climate a big factor in bee breeding? can you take these russian bees and rear them in a tropical climate?

European bee was not succesfull in tropical weather . That is why they took African bees to South America.
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Cindi
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2006, 10:10:04 AM »

Think about it.  The Carniolan (why are they called Russian anyways, a nickname?  sounds like they are CARNIOLAN and I get that they are "Carniolan" breed) bees are known for their ability to overwinter in small clusters, consuming low food amounts, they forage earlier because they can stand the colder weather.  They are nicknamed the "spring honey flow bees".  This allows the bees to take advantage of the early honey flows in agricultural European countries.  That is known fact, if you read even a little about the breed.

So, I don't get it, why would beekeepers want to take a bee that is originally climatized to the cold European weather and take it to the tropics.  In my mind, that would be like trying to take a polar bear to live in the hot southern part of the world.  And yes, they probably do, but the bears are kept cold.  Oh well, I just don't get it.  Great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2006, 12:37:13 PM »

Cindi, it is confusing isn't it?  I too had tried to suggest once, that taking Russian bees and breed them in southern parts was not a good idea. Boy, that was a wrong move. It got most beeks really upset. 
It is just human nature, I guess, to take something and force it to conform to their wishes, their will... When thing look OK to them, than begins tribal beating of one's chest and a feather in ones cap...
If nature intended, for one bee to populate the whole world, it would be so. But we know different - or do we?

One more: Russian are Russian!  Carniolan are Carniolan!  If they look the same to us, that does not make them so.  They are distinctly different bees - indigenous to the regions from where they hail.
At least they were... Now they are found everywhere and they shouldn't be called that anymore...
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2006, 12:44:55 PM »

>Think about it.  The Carniolan (why are they called Russian anyways, a nickname?

The typical Carniolan bees here are not from Russia.  The "Russian" bees have been recently imported from the Primorsky region of Russia because they have been dealing with the Varroa for longer and the theory is that they should be more resistant to the mites.

So "Russians" are Carniolan bees recently imported from the Primorsky region of Russia and "Carniolans" are decended from Carniolans that have been here in North American for a very long time.  If you buy a "Carniolan" you won't be buying a "Russian" and if you buy a "Russian" it won't be the same strain of Carniolan as what is sold as a "Carniolan".
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2006, 12:48:04 PM »

My information is that Russians are crossbreeded bees from Estern Siberia.  They are not from one race.

Russian bee in America is quite unstabile, crosbreeded group and not yet ready as race.
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« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2006, 01:26:51 PM »

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that taking Russian bees and breed them in southern parts was not a good idea

that wasn't the part of your post that upset some.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2006, 01:29:07 PM »

i wonder the same thing about the bees i get in package from california.  the ones i got last year are good, but it must be a bit of a shock to them to come up here to the wet and cold.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2006, 01:58:58 PM »

With all due respect - Why should I think about it?

It is common knowledge that no "western bee can survive in eastern Russia, especially not in the region of Siberia. In Eastern Russia the surviving bee is the one which raises brood very late! Carniolan is completely opposite...
Carniolan bee originated in Slovenia and S. Austria which was before WW I  the same country, called Carniola.
-------------------------------

In other North European countries there has been a tendency to move over to Carniolan bees, although in recent years an increasing interest has been shown in re-establishing the North European Dark Bee, A.m.mellifera, in most countries in which it is autochthonous (the original sub-species). The move to Carniolans or Italians is unlikely to progress as far as Eastern Russia or Central Siberia, where the harsh Winters and late Springs may demand a hardy bee with a late build-up. Beekeeping in these regions is said to be possible where the rivers are frozen for less than six months in the year, in spite of the severe Winters. Although the post-glacial migration of A.m.mellifera did not progress beyond the Ural Mountains, beekeeping using the North European bee has been practised in Siberia since the early part of last century. Only in the easternmost province is a different race of honeybee kept; the Ukrainian bee, A.m.macedonica, was introduced into Ussuria towards the end of the l9th century

-----------------------------------


Perhaps one should read this to really understand the origin of bee races since the last ice age. . . . .

Link:
http://www.angus.co.uk/bibba/bibborig.html#Apis%20mellifera%20carnica


Regards,
Trot
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Jarhead
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2006, 02:09:16 PM »

Nice article on the Russian honey bee on, w-w.USDA.Gov. Search: Honey Bee.
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Finsky
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« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2006, 04:34:04 PM »


Perhaps one should read this to really understand the origin of bee races since the last ice age. . . . .

Link:
http://www.angus.co.uk/bibba/bibborig.html#Apis%20mellifera%20carnica



This is very logical report, but now gene mapping have revealed that mellifera development is very different.
http://researchnews.wsu.edu/physical/149.html

.
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Cindi
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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2006, 11:00:30 AM »

Cindi, it is confusing isn't it?  I too had tried to suggest once, that taking Russian bees and breed them in southern parts was not a good idea. Boy, that was a wrong move. It got most beeks really upset. 
It is just human nature, I guess, to take something and force it to conform to their wishes, their will... When thing look OK to them, than begins tribal beating of one's chest and a feather in ones cap...
If nature intended, for one bee to populate the whole world, it would be so. But we know different - or do we?

One more: Russian are Russian!  Carniolan are Carniolan!  If they look the same to us, that does not make them so.  They are distinctly different bees - indigenous to the regions from where they hail.
At least they were... Now they are found everywhere and they shouldn't be called that anymore...
Trot, well I still don't get it.  Why would so many people get down right annoyed with your suggestion of taking the Russian bees way down south.  That makes no sense to have this kind of contempt from people.  Oh well, we cannot make the sense of the world itself, (or can we).  Oh brother....

Indeed, I certainly did not realize that Russian are Russian, Carniolan are Carniolan.  But....we know that the Carniolan breed originated in the country of Slovenia (Trot, isn't that where you originate from too, seems in the cobwebs of my mind, I recall your mentioning that).  This breed is so good at living in very cold winters, overwinter well in the small cluster, and build up so fast in the spring.  I don't know why people would want them in the warmer wintered areas.  Makes no sense.  Man, can I go on about stuff at times.

I have Carniolan (well, they are probably not true to the breed anymore though, through supercedure, swarming, etc.)  maybe a couple of hives maybe are .  We have pretty cold weather in the wintertime, so I feel that I am justified with the "natural" cold time that maybe this breed might be more used to, even if it has been raised in this country, or even raised in a warm one.  Ooops, I hope that I am not getting people annoyed at me too, oh well, if I am, life goes on.

Did you ever see the documentary on how the hideous enormous yellow jackets in the Asian country destroy the honeybee colonies?  I was apalled that such an insect could do such devastation.  But the bees got smart.  They would lure the scout yellow jacket into their hive body and raise the temperature so much by their thoracic muscle movements, that they burned the yellow jacket all up, it seems the yellow jacket could not stand the higher temperature that the bees themselves could emit and withstand.  Smart bees, how they learn to deal with their enemies.  You have a great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2006, 01:08:34 PM »

Well Cindi, I do not know why people act, as they do?  perhaps they feel threatened?  Their way of thinking is threatened?  I have no answer to that one...

About the wrong bees in wrong places? I use simplistic terms cause if one wants to know exactly why - there are numerous places on the web where such things are explained better what I can manage.
Cindy, bees have been on this earth for a helluva long time and are largely indigenous to their areas. (All this through millions of years of evolution!) Golden colored around equator,(roughly) and darker as one gets higher up on the mountains and/or towards the poles.
Man, in his own wisdom, decided that he would take bees from the Mediterranean lush gardens and keep them in Canada, or Scandinavia for that matter.
It works. Bees are tough!  But, that was not all that man wanted... He houses them in all kinds of boxes on 11 different size combs. Now, we have nothing but problems on top of problems!  Bees of all sorts, with bugs of all sorts.
To fix what we have done - we keep pro-ping up those poor bees yearly, just trying to keep them till next Spring. Some with greater, others with lesser success.
Every few years, mother nature tries to tell us that our ways are not working.  Bees simply disappear!  This year is one of those years... Of course I wont even get into the crap that we are enveloping our poor earth with...
There you have it - is that why some get upset?
But, I'm Happy to say, that more and more beekeepers are "reinventing the wheel!"  All is not lost yet.
Hopefully? 
SC/natural comb, bees appropriate for the area, locally raised queens, local/feral swarms, etc... About all - no medicines, poisons or whatever one calls it...
Perhaps someday soon, they will also realize that spring importation of package bees from Australia and New Zealand is not the way to go. But, it's hard to buck the all-mighty dollar, isn't it?

Yes Cindi, I do come from Slovenia and if you visit the link below you will See why I get, sometimes, carried away when it comes to races of bees.  In Slovenia we have Carniolan bees ONLY, even though Italy is just across the road!  Our bees do not have any yellow rings on them...  It is all about breeding - not just having bees - in the box and let it be what it may!?

I too was once comercial keeper. I too had bought a lot of packages in Spring. I knew it was wrong - but that was the only source to be had. When varroa came and the boarder closed, I and many others went by the wayside. Before it was hard business cause on every step there were bees and beekeepers. Now there is none. I can drive all week and never see a hive...
Only a few are still holding on in our parts... But nobody imports anymore...

I envy you - your Carniolans?! I have Italians, cause that is the bee that is already acclimatized to my area. I do plan to perhaps acquire some dark bees - preferably from a wild source...

Did see those Japanese Giant Hornets. Yes, bees are very smart and they too ball their own queen - same as you saw those "cooking" the hornets.

http://www.carniolan.com/uk/caracter-uk.htm
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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2006, 02:31:23 PM »

Quote
Well Cindi, I do not know why people act, as they do?  perhaps they feel threatened?  Their way of thinking is threatened?  I have no answer to that one...

oh for gods sake.  i really tried not to respond to this but i'll risk getting another post pulled.

it was your anti-american rant that angry people off.  as far as i know your post is still up.  go back and read it.  my response got pulled.
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2006, 02:54:05 PM »

Please, leave God out of this!  Perhaps a cold shower could help?

Regards,
Trot
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« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2007, 12:50:38 AM »

Trot, right, it was indeed the Japanese Giant Hornets, not Yellowjackets.  Got a little confused with the species.  Oh well.

I suspect that eventually all my Carniolan will be Italian.  I do not mind a hither or dither.  The Carniolan queens are very impressive looking though, I do like darker colours, that pertains to almost everything that has a colour.

I do understand that Slovenia ONLY has Carniolan, right, I will read the site, it is worth reading about, I can imagine.  When I first started with beekeeping, my Asian instructor, who runs over 1,200 hives, purchased Carniolans for us.  He imports from Australia every year and has alot of faith in that breed.  I trust his instinct.  He always buys extra packages for his students and others that like this breed.  I did extensive research on this breed when I first began learning, and the traits that the Carniolan has are very tempting to me.  The only thing that I can see that is the problem with them is because of the early spring build up, they are prone to swarming.  BUT, I have a much deeper understanding of swarm prevention that I am hoping that I can manage these ladies as well as I can to prevent this from occurring in my apiary.  Time will tell that tale. 

I found one of the interesting points of this breed is the longer tongue, hence its ability to get deeper into the nectaries of plants I would imagine?   I also liked that the site proclaimed that the Carniolan is not prone to be robbers, because their sense of orientation is excellent and they do not drift very much.  Overwintering in small clusters, consuming less food, low propolis gathers, clean wax, (now some may prefer higher propolis gathering), but I would imagine that unless one is in the propolis gathering interest, low propolis gatherers are preferred (LOL), anything to keep the sticky fingers unsticky.

These are all pretty admirable traits.  Again, SWARM, that can be good, that can be bad.  Depends I guess on what is good or bad.  In olden times I understand the beekeepers wanted the colonies to swarm.  Hmm..food for thought.  Have a great rest of this day (well, I am at 9:50 PM, the last day of the year at this moment), you are now in 2007, different times, different spaces.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2007, 11:55:19 AM »

Well, if you can purchase Carniolan queens than you can continue on with them. But, even purchased ones, will eventually be - whatever...  One can not control the drones that mate with the queen. Unless they are artificially inseminated with pure drone sperm.
In my case, keeping a strain of bees pure is not a problem, cause there is no other bees for miles and miles.

Yes Cindi! Slovenia is a birth place of Carniolan bee and they will keep it so. No other bees are to be found there. Of course, Carniolan bees are nowadays also found in Austria, Hungary, Croatia, Serbia and in some parts of Romania. Those are not pure though...
Slovenia is currently having some issues with neighbouring Austria regarding the Carniolan bee. Austria is trying to claim the rights for this bee. Same as is the case for the famous Lipizzaner horse, which of course originates from the place called Lipica in Slovenia. But since they were for ever being supplied to the famous riding school in Wiena and some shady deals at the start of independence for Slovenia, it looks like the Austrians will claim Lipizzaner horses as their own - although the only place they can be successfully reared is in Lipica, Karst region of Slovenia. (Has to do with soil, grass and water!)

You are right, they do like to swarm.  See, back home, they were bred for swarming. Years ago, nearly every household in Slovenia had in their garden a bee-house. Bees were their source of sweetener and wax for candles. Honey was not their main purpose of raising bees. To make a bit of pocket change, they were selling swarms all over Europe and the world.
But, with proper management, swarming nowadays is not a problem. One has to stay a step ahead of ones bees...

For those keepers who reside in areas with red-clover - Carniolan bee is a God-sent, cause of their longer tongue...
You seem to be right on top of things Cindi, which is good.
I too wish you great day and all the best in 2007...

Regards,
Trot



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Michael Bush
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« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2007, 01:53:43 PM »

>Same as is the case for the famous Lipizzaner horse, which of course originates from the place called Lipica in Slovenia.

Of course.

>But since they were for ever being supplied to the famous riding school in Wiena and some shady deals at the start of independence for Slovenia, it looks like the Austrians will claim Lipizzaner horses as their own

They have been for a long time despite the actual origins.  But then Lipizzaners are mostly Iberian blood from Spain.  Smiley

> although the only place they can be successfully reared is in Lipica, Karst region of Slovenia. (Has to do with soil, grass and water!)

They seem to thive all over the world actually.  There are a fair number here in the US.

Nothing is quite as regal, elegant, graceful, intelligent, and gorgeous as any of the Baroque breeds including the Lipizzaners, Andalusians, Lusitanos and Friesians.

http://www.bushfarms.com/friesians.htm
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2007, 03:25:46 PM »

Yes Mr Bush, all of this is true. For hundreds of years the heard was traveling across many countries and many famous horses were becoming  part of "boosting the blood!"
In WWII General Paton rescued the last heard from Germans (was even so seen in a movie)and some were sent to America all but eleven were returned to Lipica by the allies. Some they sent to Italy and some to Wiena. As saviors, they saw it right to distribute their butty as they saw fit...

Especially in recent times, one can find almost every country on earth throwing in the pot their 2 cents worth, in a bid to have their names associated with this handsome and famous horse.
Yes, they are found almost all over the world, but periodically blood has to be re-infused from the original heard to rejuvenate those which are spread world wide.
(something similar to true queen breeding.)
I'm  not a horse expert, (don't even particularly like them) but I do follow the fight, to let the credit go to Lipica, ( Lipizza, as called by Austro-Hungarian empire) from where the name for this horse originates.
Why do you think is so? Surely other countries have more clout, prestige and money to name them to their liking?
One has to go back, right in to the roots, to really see why . But outside Slovenia that is not particularly just, or/and in fairnes to Slovenian, possible...

This Karst horse, (so first called) is one of the oldest horses on record. In Roman times this horse carried goods to ports of Trieste and Venice. through the centuries, they were of course bread to numerous breeds - BUT, those breeds did not have any dominant influence on the Karst horse. Their steadiness , speed, grace, intelligence and beauty remained intact to this day.
The exception were the Arab horses. Those gave their names to the six lines which remain in Lipica stud today!
In 1580 some stallions from Spain were imported and also a white Andalusian stallion.
But none of that had no intent to change, or alter the Karst line!

Mares, they are bred in 16 strains, though.

Those Lipizzaner's are named by traditional system. Stallion gets two names, mares only one. In other words, each hoarse has in its name registered the strict line of their ancestors. When horses are one year old, letter " L " is branded in its left cheek, designating it a Lipica thoroughbred, born on that stud farm!

And lastly. I have been in Lipica on numerous occasions. Talked to breeders and trainers and yes, they unanimously maintain that the key to the uniqueness of this Karst horse is the soil, grass, water and (yes hard to swallow) - the air they breathe...

Regards,
Trot

Regards,
Trot

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« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2007, 03:54:30 PM »

I forgot this:


http://www.uvi.si/eng/slovenia/background-information/lipizzaners/

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« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2007, 04:59:50 PM »

It's kind of hard to argue with the fact that the breed carries the name of where it originated...
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
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