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Author Topic: Unlimited brood chamber  (Read 5840 times)
Cindi
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2006, 09:54:35 AM »

  Bees building comb usually do not swarm. 

But a hive which have allready an intention to swarm, it does not build foundations. So Maarec says that do not add room with foundations into hive which is in danger to swarm.

So, that should be a good lesson to us all.  Swarm prevention.  Give them lots of foundation, BEFORE they get it into their heads to swarm.  Me in particular.  More understanding.  I think that maybe I had swarms occur that I did not know about for sure.  I saw supers that I had added that the bees did not even get around to working on alot with drawing comb.  I wondered why, because when I added these supers, the hives were very very full and I thought that they would have had them drawn out in no time. Hmmm...gotta focus really strongly on the swarm prevention technique this season.  Sounds like that is one of the most critical aspects of the colony build up, instead of "build down" (LOL).  Seasons come and seasons go, winter is heading off and spring will be coming, along with the dog days of summer.  Great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2006, 10:14:47 AM »


This is best what I have seen

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/PDFs/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf

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« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2006, 08:40:43 PM »

Cindi,
I see your learning curve in action.  You are now connecting the dots.
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Cindi
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« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2007, 01:09:54 AM »

Cindi,
I see your learning curve in action.  You are now connecting the dots.

Brian, I have to honestly say, that (I have been involved with bees since my introductory Level 1 Beekeeping in April 2005) it has only been in the past month or so, that finally, all the information gathering that I have been doing for almost two years now, through reading, courses, forum members help, and so on, that I am just now really and deeply beginning to connect the dots.  It has taken this long to finally feel like I am beginning to get the gist of all the stuff about bees.  I don't think that I am a slow learner by no means, but I believe that there is so much to learn, understanding the biology of the bee, and so many other habits, that it takes years to even begin to really start to "get it, (them)".  I have not even touched the edge, I know that. But one day I hope to be a great beekeeper, and be able to teach what I have learned to my family members, so they can have the joy that I experience with the bees. 

This is why I have a very deep quest for knowledge regarding the bees.  I want to be able to take the best care of my apiary members that I possibly can.  For their sake mostly, and any bi-products of these girls are simply a bonus for me (and a good bonus at that).  My quest for knowledge does not end.  Great 2007.Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2007, 01:25:15 AM »

.
Cindy, you make good questions. It shows you basic knowledge and your basic aim.

Knowledge is like stars on the heaven.  First you find some stars and a mess.  When you know the basic, it is easy to set new stars of knowledge on ringht place.  Finaly you see clearly what are meaninfull to you and what just exist on sky.

Beekeeping knowledge is like a tool box. You choose the right alternative in different circumtances. If you have one alternative, it is the only what you may use. Professional beekeepers use "routine system".  As one professional said: "We look one hive on yard, look what we should do, and make same tricks to all. It is only work for me"
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Cindi
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« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2007, 01:41:30 AM »

Finsky, when I took the beginning level of beekeeping, I had an Asian instructor.  He was very good, but there was a difficult time for the first few weeks to understand his dialect.  But once understood, it was so easy to understand.  I think he may have had a hard time to understand us too, but he did the very best that he could.  It was an intense learning curve because of the accent of his nation.

I think that I probably drove this poor young man crazy because I asked so many questions, I asked so many that no others in our class (of 15) had to ask.  I probably did it all for them.  I am a thinker, and I think constantly about the bees, why they do this, they do that, what happens if they do this, or I do that.  It is a constant thinking process.  I even drive myself crazy.

That is what I did for the first year of my reading books after the beginning of course.  I would sit with a paper pad and pen, every time that I had a question, I would write it down.  Sometimes I would find answers for it, sometimes not.  If I did not find an answer it would stay on paper.  After about a year, I took all the questions that I did not find answers for and typed them all out and sent them by e-mail to a fellow who said he would answer my questions.  The questions I had had 104 questions typed out for him to answer.

I wrote in the e-mail to this man that probably by the time he had time to answer these questions, I may have had the answers.  I think that I must have scared this man to death with so MANY QUESTIONS that he never answered me back.  (Even though he said he would).  I was never annoyed about this, I just went on the thought that he got too busy, and that is 100% OK with me.  I know what it is like to be very very busy.  I still think that I freaked him out and it was plain and simply too many questions.  It still brings a smile to my face to see this man's face when he saw my 104 questions (or about that many, can't quite remember without going to the document to see).

Here I go again, I get very VERY long-winded.  My apology.  Off to celebrate 2007.  Great day. Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2007, 01:53:24 AM »

Now I start to drive with car to my summer cottage 100 miles. I cover my hives with earth construction textile. It is wind cover and agaist snow.

Exactly after 2 months I take them away. We have here the warmest December ever measured. No ice or snow. Temperature is near freezing point.  It is raining water.

I can se from traffic cameras what kind of weather it is near my summer cottage. Somethimes there is -10C when here in Capital water is raining.

I put one box hives inside the shelter.

http://alk.tiehallinto.fi/alk/english/frames/kelikamerat-frame.html

.

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2007, 10:47:29 AM »

>Give them lots of foundation, BEFORE they get it into their heads to swarm.

More than that, get it into the BROOD NEST.
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Michael Bush
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2007, 04:03:14 PM »

Yes MB, that's what it takes.  Putting 2 frames of starter strips in the top 2 brood boxes lets the bees being to work the wax.  I do that when feeding in the spring.  4 new frames to work on, some pollen or pollen substitute, and a few gallons of simple syrup and the hive is off to a good start working comb and rearing brood.  I them put the first super on about a week later.
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2007, 07:06:54 PM »

I started useing the unlimited brood nest theory and I have nothing but success.I put the queen excluders in storeage
kirko
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Cindi
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« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2007, 12:14:51 AM »

kirko, that is great to hear, the more I hear about unlimited brood chambers, it makes sense, still investigating all aspects though, so much about queen excluder, no queen excluder, opinions, compile information, make own opinion.  Great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Scott Derrick
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« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2007, 12:24:09 AM »

I've been reading this post trying to get a handle on the Unlimited Brood Chamber concept.

Finsky Said:

Quote

I do not use exluder even if queen goes to lay eggs to super.  When hone flow is strong bees store honey in brood area. I lift those frames up and give empty combs to brood area or foundations.
When honey flow ceases, I arrange honey combs and brood combs in order.

* Capped boxes to extraction
* Filled honey combs up,
* brood down and
* emty combs in the middle.
* mixed honey and brood combs to hive periferia that queen is not willing to lay eggs any more.



Is this the method that you use for The Unlimited Brood Chamber method? I just purchased 30 deeps from a local beekeeper that was going to all 8 frame equiptment and I want try and use at least 3 deeps per hive this year. I want to learn how the method works.

Can someone explain it a little more in detail on how this method is started and worked? I have 8 hives right now and want to take all of them as well as the ones I will add this year to the Unlimited Brood Chamber Method.

Thanks for the info on this subject and for your responses.

Scott
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Finsky
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« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2007, 02:49:50 AM »

I want try and use at least 3 deeps per hive this year. I want to learn how the method works.

Scott you surely live in south in warm area because there seems to be palms in Carolina, but never mind.

The aim is first raise bees so much as possible. You need good queens and that is basic.

But in my climate early summer is cold and nights are cold, queen tends to rise up to lay eggs in warm boxes. I have found that it goes naturally up but cold forces it. When I have now warmed bottom with heat cable, queen ascend to lowest deep lay.

When early summer starts, bees get honey and pollen  from fields and one deep is needed fo  food,. But even it does not fill, emerging new bees need more room. Everey week I add box or two. Otherwise they start to think swarming.

In this early start I keep entrance reducer on depending how much bees use to ventilate. What is the need.

When real honey flow starts, I need to open totally main entrance. The lowest brood box get cold and queen tend to raise upp. 
Soon lowest box have only pollen, old resting foragers and nectar ripening. In the middle of yield lowest box if a puffer where nectar is stored and pollen too. 

A good queen needs 2 boxes to lay. It automatically rises up. But even if it uses 4 th box, it is nothing. It is a good queen.  I drop brood frames up or down.  Bees keep brood area compact and queen will not lay here and there.

When two years ago it was the most heavy nectar flow, out tempperature was 30C , I kept all entrances open. The result was that queen rised to topmost box to lay in 7-box tower. It is nothing, because when I took 240 lbs capped honey away queen was again in lowest box. Hive was really full.

The most important is that when flow is heavy, hive have always room for brood and new nectar.   Never mind where queen is, if nectar is coming in and there is no swarming.

*********

In the fall I keep brood area compact. If I have put foundation in the middle of brood area, it is often full of honey.  During heavy flow the lovest box too is full of capped honey. But it is inside, not on fiels.

I do not know, how this works in warm climate because yield season is long and there are many cycles in yield flowers.
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« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2007, 06:35:54 AM »

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm

This is the basics.
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Michael Bush
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Finsky
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« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2007, 08:56:54 AM »



What Lusby says as advice is not good in cold weather like in spring. You cannot help bees by formulating brood are in new way. Brood are should be compact. If you force to enlarge area, bees destroy brood in periferia.

In early spring number of nurser bees is limiting factor.  When hive has enough nurser bees, heating/cold is limiting factor. Later the capacity of queen laying will apear.

.
For example if chalk brood kills 20% of brood, hive is able to enlarge after that when night are warm and disease disapear.

WHAT I MEAN: when you make unlimitd brood area, big brood area  will come true or not. You cannot force bees in anything. There are many factors if you get 2-box brood area, and that was it what you wanted. First of all: really good queen.

.

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Cindi
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« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2007, 09:27:25 AM »

Brood area unlimited.  Probably the best idea.  Oh brother, I had a tiny little thorn stuck straight into my index finger and it makes typing with my left hand a little difficult.  (it actually hurts a bit), so my typing is a little slower today.  thank goodness my husband is a master at taking out slivers and thorns that I get.  Ooops, there I go again.

When I took a seminar regarding bees with another instructor who was not my intial beekeeping level 1 and II, Asian man, he said to restrict the queen to only one brood chamber using a queen excluder.  He said he gets about 200 pounds of honey per hive this way.  Maybe he does.  He said that he just moves brood up into the second or third box, always leaving the queen a few frames below to lay.  Now this may work or not.  But my opinion formed with that was that it was WAY TOO MUCH WORK.  Once the honey supers are on, I honestly do not think that it would be the easiest thing to do to go down to the bottom box and keep lifting brood frames out and up into other supers.  Doing things in an easier manner would certainly be better for me.  And unlimited space seems the right choice.

I presume the queen will go up or down. Our summers are very warm, nights are pretty warm too, so she probably would utilize the bottom chamber, there is a LONG season for the nectarflow.  Months.  Probably,  6 months or so, maybe longer by a bit.

I think that now brings us to a new topic:  Reversing chambers.  But I am going to start another post on this.  Great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2007, 10:50:16 AM »

OK..I hear you. Here is a senireo for everyone that I can learn off of. Lets say I have a hive that has two deeps. My goal is to go to three deeps.

I go to inspect the hive and I notice the bottom brood chamber has about 4 frames of brood in the center and the outside has honey and 1 and 10 are just being built out. The upper brood super has three frames of honey and nothing else.

How should I handle this?

This is how I would handle it. Please tell me if I am wrong. If I am wrong what sort of affect would it have on the hive?

I would place the third chamber on top and pull the honey from the second chamber to the third chamber. I would then take three frames of brood from the bottom chamber and place it into the middle of the second chamber. I would place three drawn frames into the bottom chamber.

My thought is that the honey stays in the box...the brood being moved upward helps to populate the second chamber and the queen is given room to lay more.

Thanks for all your responses.
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Finsky
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« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2007, 11:30:48 AM »


* I would then take three frames of brood from the bottom chamber and place it into the middle of the second chamber. * I would place three drawn frames into the bottom chamber.


when you add the third deep, reason is that hive is getting too much bees or honey and pollen is filling combs.

*** If it is cold in late spring, I put the whole third box lowest. - more room for bees...

*** If honey flow has started, I put third box topmost.
        - If there is too much honey in second box, I lift them up but in the middle of third box I move 3-4 brood frames.
           For honey they have 7-6 frames.
         - I don't touch into first box.
         - To second box I put 2-3 foundations between brood frames.
         - To third box I may put 2-3 foundations too.
         - To sides of second deep I put empty drawn combs.

REASON:  1) Around brood area I arrange more room for eggs.
              2) On sides empty room for pollen and nectar that bees feel that tey hace space
              3) Fillde frame up to periferia that bees need not handle honey any more.
              4) If there  is  old honey or winter sugar in frames, I put them between larva frames.
                  So bees unburden old pollen and honey and molbilize them. Brood will be in these combs later.

FOURTH BOX:

*** Summer is going on, and bees are more and let's hope, honey is coming in.
*** Next week when you add third box, you need to give more room.
*** If third box is full of brood, reverse the second and third box . Bees lift honey to fourth box from the area of brood.

*** This is time when yout ought to do swarming inspections.  During this job you may arrange frames, you may add foundations and keep free space for brood and honey. The lowest box is mostly for pollen.

**** !!! When you add emty super combs add them allways just over the brood area. Never mind if queen goes there and lay. When brood is capped you lift frames top and give new empty combs over brood area.

*** When you inspect for swarming, you may need fourth deep where you lift all food combs from sedonf and third box.

Some hive may gather 1,5 box pollen. That is valuable material and just arrange more room for laying. Mad pollen gatherers are often good brood raisers.

.


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kathyp
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« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2007, 12:56:09 PM »

maybe i'm making this to complicated.  here is what i get from this conversation.

with 2 deeps overwintered; early in spring i should pull a couple of  frames from the brood box, replace them with empty frames, feed, add 3rd box shortly after, build up hive, add honey supers?? did i get it?
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« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2007, 01:03:13 PM »

maybe i'm making this to complicated.  here is what i get from this conversation.

with 2 deeps overwintered; early in spring i should pull a couple of  frames from the brood box, replace them with empty frames, feed, add 3rd box shortly after, build up hive, add honey supers?? did i get it?

But I don't understad why? Unlimited brood are is not a method. It is how get honey normally away without exluder. Hive need not excluder.

What about then when brood  and honey is mixed in same frame  .... Some tricks when doing hive nursing for another reasons.
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