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Author Topic: Bees does not warm up the hive!  (Read 2008 times)
Jorn Johanesson
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« on: December 21, 2006, 06:05:19 PM »

It is often a misunderstanding that bees are warming the air in hive during the winter. We have had an experiment where a winter cluster was stored in unwarmed barn just kept in placed within a netting box.
The air temp got down to -25 Celsius. The cluster got tighter together and that was all that happened. When the air temp got raised back to 0 Celsius the cluster expanded to normal again. Transfered to a normal hive they developed as normal. There is no data written down so you can believe it or not.

Just for fun here is some IR photos I received from a Czech beekeeper Ivan Cherney

hes comments:
I included into pictures all available information.  Camera type is ThermaCAM P60 by FLIR Systems company. Courtesy of http://www.TMVSS.cz
Hives are located in the Central Europe, Czech Republic (50N 13,75E).  I am hobbyist having few hives at backyard. Wooden bodies about 2 cm thick.













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sean
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2006, 07:26:38 PM »

i think they just huddle together for warmth. But then i am new so take that with grain of salt
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2006, 10:36:15 PM »

Amazing pics, those hot spots are very interseting, shows whats going on really well.

I can see how a remote infra red camera could really be a benefit to those who have to travel to keep an eye on their hives.
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Cindi
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2006, 11:56:56 PM »

Jorn, incredible and beautiful pictures.  It must take a lot of time to set up cameras to take such indepth data.

I realize that bees do not warm the hive, learned that somewhere.  But why then do I get an impression that if a 2 frame colony is left in a 10 frame Langstroth deep over the winter, why would they not survive.  I would assume that the bees in the 2 frame colony would be the late summer bees that would live longer and overwinter because they have not worn themselves out working outside the hive in the duty of a forager, staying indoors to maintain the cluster heat?  Curious and confused.  Great day. Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 07:08:35 AM »

The reason that two frames bees fail is that it is the start in spring to bring forward brood. It cost food, and enough bees to cover the brood area to rise the warm 35 degrees Celsius. Two frames bees do not have this power. Maybe Finsky with his aquarium heather could get it to work, but without NO.
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Cindi
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 08:49:54 AM »

The reason that two frames bees fail is that it is the start in spring to bring forward brood. It cost food, and enough bees to cover the brood area to rise the warm 35 degrees Celsius. Two frames bees do not have this power. Maybe Finsky with his aquarium heather could get it to work, but without NO.

Jorn, makes good sense.  I do not have the aquarium heater and really don't want to buy one.  So, what should I do with this 2 frame colony.  This queen was one of the better queens that I had last summer, she was great!!!  I wish that I could "save" this colony, if anything for the queen, but do not want to expend a lot of time and money, it would probably be easier in the long run to just let the colony perish, but that is such a sad thing, I hate to do it.

I tried something last year that was a failure.  Learning new stuff does take its toll.  I had two colonies, one was strong, the other much weaker, both queens were really good layers.  So what I did was I put the weaker colony on top of the stronger one for warmth.  I put two queen excluders between these colonies so the queens could not meet.  I guess that was a huge mistake!!!!  The bees from the colony on the bottom went up and must have killed the queen in the top colony.  The the bees from the top colony must have gone down to the bottom and did something to this queen in the bottom box, I will explain what I saw in a minute.  I know the queen on the top colony was dead, because I found her on the ground, dead, with quite a few bees mulling around her.  Oh dear.  So I took off that colony and put it aside and requeened.  It was good.  So a few days later I looked into the bottom colony, sitting all on its own now, and I saw the queen.  Yikes!!!  that was the scariest thing I had ever seen.   She was walking around on the comb, but looked really awful!!!  There was a bee that had obviously bitten her, then this bee must have died somehow, maybe the bees killed this bee.  But this stupid bee was stuck on the thorax of the queen.  Its mandibles must have "locked".  I picked up the queen and tried to get the bee off of her.  Not a chance, it wa stuck tight.  I thought that there was no way in the world that I could ever get this bee to become unattached to the queen without doing some very severe damage to her.  So I killed this poor old queen that had been walking around with this bee stuck on the side of her thorax.  I requeened this hive too, it turned out to still be an excellent hive....until the varroa destructor attack!!!!

Is this what would normally occur if someone put two hives together with two different queens. I am of the belief now that I could have done this, but should have had a wooden divider so the colonies could not go and kill each others queens.  I don't know.  Just learning and learning and learning some more.  Great day.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2006, 09:10:21 AM »

Try this Cindi!

Put the bees with frames into the middle Remove those not with bees, and place some styro insulation on both sides of the family. Now place a sheet of clear plastic on top of a big family by removing the cover and inner cover. Drill a 2cm entry hole in the super with the two frames. Now place the two frames hive on top of the big family so that the plastic is bottom of the two frames hive. Place the lid on top, and hope the best that it works. It has worked for me with 3 frames. Five frames with bees should be minimum to start with in spring, but this little two frames hive might be recovering. The small will get the warm from the bigger hive in spring.  When you se the styropoor carried out then it is time to expand with build out frames. You should now bee on your way to save the bees.
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Cindi
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2006, 09:25:20 AM »

Try this Cindi!

Put the bees with frames into the middle Remove those not with bees, and place some styro insulation on both sides of the family. Now place a sheet of clear plastic on top of a big family by removing the cover and inner cover. Drill a 2cm entry hole in the super with the two frames. Now place the two frames hive on top of the big family so that the plastic is bottom of the two frames hive. Place the lid on top, and hope the best that it works. It has worked for me with 3 frames. Five frames with bees should be minimum to start with in spring, but this little two frames hive might be recovering. The small will get the warm from the bigger hive in spring.  When you se the styropoor carried out then it is time to expand with build out frames. You should now bee on your way to save the bees.
Jorn, your advice appreciated.  I must clarify what you said.  You said to drill entry hole in super with 2 frames.  This 2 frame colony would have a hole for entry when I put the inner cover on it, it has a notch.  Did you mean to drill a hole in the bottom big family box for top entry/exit?

I do not have styrofoam.  Could I use another product like hay?  I could go and buy styrofoam if you think that is the best of the best.  I would love to try and save this colony for sure.

I worry about using the clear plastic to separate, would that cause too much condensation?

Could I use a piece of tenplast instead, it is a rigid white plastic sheet and maybe make a few holes in it so the moisture goes up and out through the very top hole in the inner cover of the 2 frame box?

Do the questions I ask make some sense?  Thank you Jorn, greatest of days.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2006, 09:51:56 AM »

My poly hives has always had plastic instead of innercover. The bees  propolised it all the way around, so no air could escape. Water or damp was running down the walls. I have never been thinking of dripping on the frames at least I have never seen this as a problem. if you drill a hole So that you can close it again with a wooden stick should be fine then eventual damp could go out this way. The drill in upper super with the little family is for normal entrence.But if they have an upper entrance alone is fine. Two plates of thin wood then filled with hay in a plastic bag on each side should do.

think it through and do what you find best. About plastic for covering use whaatever you have. the clear is just so that you always can have  quick look without disturbing the bees. But just bee warned. I am hooked on the styro hives smiley
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Cindi
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2006, 10:13:29 AM »

My poly hives has always had plastic instead of innercover. The bees  propolised it all the way around, so no air could escape. Water or damp was running down the walls. I have never been thinking of dripping on the frames at least I have never seen this as a problem. if you drill a hole So that you can close it again with a wooden stick should be fine then eventual damp could go out this way. The drill in upper super with the little family is for normal entrence.But if they have an upper entrance alone is fine. Two plates of thin wood then filled with hay in a plastic bag on each side should do.

think it through and do what you find best. About plastic for covering use whaatever you have. the clear is just so that you always can have  quick look without disturbing the bees. But just bee warned. I am hooked on the styro hives smiley

Jorn thank you very much.  I have lots of food for thought.  I will ponder all you have said.  We appear to be having a little good break in the weather.  It has been so rainy now for so long, yesterday the sun came out for about 1 hour, then back to the cloud and rain.  It does not make one want to go outside and do things that need to be done.  But I have some stuff I must take care of.  I was outside standing on my front porch awhile ago (I do this many times in the early mornings) and I see in the southwest some clearing in the skies.  That is a good sign, that usually means that the southerly winds are blowing and that it brings warmth and clearing of the cloud.  It is still dark, but a short time ago I did still see more clearing, in another half hour, dawn will be in the huge making and I will be able to see even better.

Past the winter solstace!!!  Longer days coming on, hurray for the summer!!!  Great day Jorn.  Cindi Gonna go make breakfast for all kinds of kids.  Yum, yum.  Last day of school and now the holidays begin!!!!  The kids are all very excited about the lazy, hazy days of summer.  They can't wait.  We have so much room for them all to play and have fun and a great big pool, 3 feet one end, eight feet deep the other end.  The dog days of summer.  C.
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2006, 10:22:12 AM »

terrarium heaters are very inexpensive as are fish tank heaters. Just place fishtank heater in a jar of water where the three missing frames would be. Sounds a lot easier than joining the hives. Fascinating explanation though.
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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2006, 10:53:09 AM »

terrarium heaters are very inexpensive as are fish tank heaters. Just place fishtank heater in a jar of water where the three missing frames would be. Sounds a lot easier than joining the hives. Fascinating explanation though.

Only problem is the electricity source! If you had feeding baskets and electricity source this could work.

I have always of some of my hives had a super departed in three with 3 frames in each for over wintering spare queens! When spring came and I found it needed to replace a queen I just took one and then removed a wall so that there now was two families. One with 3 frames and one with six frames. If needed to use one of the left queens last wall was removed and I had a full working nuke left. If none of the queens was needed I could use those for making splits. There is always some dead hives popping up that need re-establishing. Hope my spelling errors is forgiven, I am receiving family visit. My 84 old mother will bee my guest this Christmas.
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Cindi
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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2006, 07:48:43 AM »

Jorn, more good advice.  I think that the heater aquarium would be more effort,due to having to run extension cord, etc.  I have electricity at my apiary as the fence is electric and my husband built a box to house the hardware, and put in a socket in case I needed electricity up there.  But, sounds like a better idea to put hive on top of stronger one.  I still have not got outside yet.  Too much to do, just before our Christmas dinner (40 people coming).  So I am busy until day after boxing day.  Then outside I go and it will be 7 days or so past the winter solstace, ha, lol.  Great Christmas to all, Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2006, 08:03:49 AM »

The reason that two frames bees fail is that it is the start in spring to bring forward brood. It cost food, and enough bees to cover the brood area to rise the warm 35 degrees Celsius. Two frames bees do not have this power.

So it is. Two frames bees survive over our long winter but hive is not able to build up in spring with it's own aid.  Quite often weather are bad in sprin - at least here. If weather is cold, sun invent bees to fly, but then clouds darken the sun, bees fall down to shadow and die there.  Often 50% of bees may die during one week. So, if you had 2 frame bees you have any more one frame and brood will catch cold.


Quote
Maybe Finsky with his aquarium heather could get it to work, but without NO.

I have heated and feeded with pollen patty small colonies 4-5 frame but it dose not help much. Often nosema is the reason to small size. Only when I give 2-3 frames of emerging bees from big hive, small is able to develope. 

It is terrarium heater not aquarium. An the heather keeps brood alive. If you give to small colony broodframe, they are not able to keep brood alive. It is same in summer when night are cold about +12C.

Playing with too small nucs is not worth doing. It only goes wrong and you must "work" awfully much for nothing. Mating nucs are different issue and tehre one frame of bees is enough.
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Robo
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« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2006, 12:08:16 PM »

I have electricity at my apiary as the fence is electric and my husband built a box to house the hardware, and put in a socket in case I needed electricity up there.  But, sounds like a better idea to put hive on top of stronger one.

Two  7watt nite lites shoved thru the entrace and then blocked off works like a champ.  Done it for 3 years now with nucs and haven't lost one.    It is what I call the 'poor mans' version of Finsky's aquarium heater (Thanks to Finsky for the aux. heating idea grin).   Don't forget, if you put them on top of a stronger hive,  you get the moisture from the stronger hive too. 

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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2006, 12:13:18 PM »

Don't forget, if you put them on top of a stronger hive,  you get the moisture from the stronger hive too. 

If you put it on top with a plastic sheet beetween it is not the case, but the warm in spring do the terraium trick through the plastic.
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Cindi
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« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2006, 09:31:17 AM »

Jorn, if there are ever any typing errors, do not let it worry you one little bit.  That is simply nothing that should bother anyone at all.  We can all read through the lines.  Your input is valuable.  I hope that your visit with your dear old Mother is wonderful.  So nice that you can have her with you for the celebration.  Your are fortunate that you still have this beautiful woman that loves her son.  You have an awesome day.  Cindi (our 40 people dinner went great last night, I am taking a break to myself right now and checking out the forum, soon grandchildren and my two daughters and husbands will be up and over looking to see what Santa brought to our house).  Everyone to bed late, but the children still rise long before the sun.  Oh ya, the sun, the days of summer getting closer.  Cindi.
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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