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Author Topic: beginner's setup  (Read 4694 times)
Michael Bush
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2006, 07:30:33 PM »

>Both Michael Bush and I use medium 8 frame hives only.  The ease of operation cannot be over stated.

No, it can't.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeseightframemedium.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#lighterboxes
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#uniformframesize

>Is that what you're talking about? Using strips to start off the comb making?

That would be right.

>I thought they made foundations in small cell though.

They do.

>This is mere imagination. to draw one box foundations needs 16 lbs honey. With trips it nees 100% more honey. No use.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm

>Natural combs do not protect against varroa, not a bit.  First varroa has killed feral colonies from local nature.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Organicbeekeepers
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#varroa

>I am not small cell beekeeper, but i think that if the bees are regressed they will build small cells also out from stips.

Yes.

>If not full regressed they will build mixed cells, or totaly go back to 5.1 cells.

Probably about 5.1mm cells.  The bees from those cells will usually build something close to 4.9mm.
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Michael Bush
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kathyp
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2006, 07:44:47 PM »

gota go with finsky on the small cell.  i can find no definitive research that proves small cell reduces varroa.  that said, i intend to try starter strips.  i want to see if i get more/better wax from it.  i have a plan...... evil
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2006, 08:53:57 PM »

  i can find no definitive research that proves small cell reduces varroa.


Try this one.

http://www.funpecrp.com.br/GMR/year2003/vol1-2/pdf/gmr0057.pdf

"......it appears that natural-sized cells are superior to over-sized comb cells for disease resistance."



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Michael Bush
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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2006, 10:12:05 PM »

It's easy enough to just time the pre and post capping times on natural sized cells.  I've done it many times and no one who has tried it has reported any different results than I have see, or that Huber saw on natural comb back in 1791:
http://www.bushfarms.com/huber.htm#eggtoadult

Keep in mind that on the 1st day no time has elapsed and on the 20th 19 days have elapsed. If you have doubts about this add up the elapsed time he refers to. It adds up to 18 ½ days.

    "The worm of workers passes three days in the egg, five in the vermicular state, and then the bees close up its cell with a wax covering. The worm now begins spinning its cocoon, in which operation thirty-six hours are consumed. In three days, it changes to a nymph, and passes six days in this form. It is only on the twentieth day of its existence, counting from the moment the egg is laid, that it attains the fly state."

    François Huber 4 September 1791.

If you shorten the pre and post cappings you will get significantly less Varroa.  If you go to natural cell size you will significantly shorten the pre and post capping times.

A true scientist would try it and find out for themselves.  It's not difficult.  You'll need an observation hive (which any beekeeper should have anyway if you want to learn about bees), some small cell comb, a notepad to write down when the queen layed the eggs, and a marker to mark a number or letter over the cell she layed it in so you can time it.  Then note when it was capped and when they emerged.
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Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
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kathyp
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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2006, 10:32:56 PM »

Quote
A true scientist would try it and find out for themselves.  It's not difficult. 


that sounds very much like work....something i gave up long ago!!!  i hope to have enough hives after this year to do several different things.  among them, allowing the bees to draw comb as they see fit.  i have no problem with trying new things and have no problem changing my mind if i find a new things works better than what i have been doing.

i read jerrymacs article (thanks) and i have read others.  what i would like to see is a long term study with several years of follow up on established colonies.  so far, i have not found a study  like this.  a one year study is a good start, but there are so many variables no absolute conclusion can be drawn.

those i have known who have tried small cell found no advantage and discontinued because they were after volume honey and found that honey productions was reduced by allowing bees to draw foundation, etc.  (also not scientific findings)

i plan to use at least one hive for wax production primarily.  i am thinking that having the bees draw out the comb from scratch will give me a better quality of wax.  i don't know if that's true, but i'd like to give it a try.

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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Finsky
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« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2006, 01:31:29 AM »

gota go with finsky on the small cell.  i can find no definitive research that proves small cell reduces varroa.  that said, i intend to try starter strips.  i want to see if i get more/better wax from it.  i have a plan...... evil

I have no trouble with varroa. I do not use starter strip because it is really expencive compared to my own wax recycling. I get so much wax from uncapping that I get all wax what I need to new foundations.

My aim is to get huge honey yields. I am not goin to play any natural. My bees are so natural as they need to bee.

To teach to beginners 100 years old beekeeping - not me  tongue .

50 years ago principles were awfull. Now I get 4 times more honey from hive. Do I need to regress myself?

.
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mick
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« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2006, 02:28:57 AM »

We are just so lucky here to not have the problems with disease and mites, fingers crossed, that many of you have to face on a daily basis. Not to mention snow. I obviously cant appreciate all of the extra work and heartache you face. I should have the reslts of my annual AFB test back before Christmas.
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Finsky
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« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2006, 02:37:20 AM »

I obviously cant appreciate all of the extra work and heartache you face.

You get there all the time honey and you must exctract honey in horrible hot weather and hobbible amounts.  How do you manage?

We had last summer 86 F (30 C)  for long period and it was hard to nurse bees in sunshine.
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mick
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« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2006, 02:45:32 AM »

LOL finsky, I am cutting sections from the frames, putting in a sieve on top of a big bowl, covering with a towel, and leaving in the sun. The honet drips through and the wax stays behind, but it is a long process. The other day when it was 44, the wax melted and dripped through as well Sad.

I have 10 frames in the cupboard that I have to process and on the weekend I will find out how many more I have to remove from the supers.
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Cindi
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« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2006, 08:40:14 AM »

The full sheets of foundation cut down to strips goes a long way.  1 inch strips (you get 8 from 1 deep sheet) means on sheet of foundation makes 8 frames (1 full box for me) of frames with starter strips.  the bees will regress the comb size down from the industry standard which is also helpful in Varroa control.

Brian, I keep forgetting to ask the point about strips.  I think that I am going to give that a whirl this year.  I have in the past used wooden frames with full foundation.  I bought a couple of boxes of Pierco plastic frame & foundation and used both.  I must say, that I won't be using the plastic again.  Besides every effort to make the bees "like" it, I found that they plain and simply were reluctant to work on these piercos.  So, back to wooden I will go, I know that they loved the wood frames.  I assemble them myself.  I am going to try strips this year, yes. 

Question, how is the strip of foundation kept in place in the frame?  The frames I get have the groove in the top and bottom bar.

Is slipping the foundation strip into the top groove enough to hold it in place?

Do you have a picture of what the frame's foundation looks like once the bees have regressed the size of the comb from the standard size on the strip.  Great day. Cindi
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« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2006, 10:31:52 AM »

excellent question Cindi.  thanks.  i'll  be interested in the answer!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
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« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2006, 10:34:08 AM »

Cindi, I was just about to ask that!

But also finsky, how do you "recycle" the wax left over? do you just melt it down and make a wax sheet for the bees to use?
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KONASDAD
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« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2006, 10:56:08 AM »

If you use starter strips, what supports the comb as only one side would be attached? Particularly if you use an extractor.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2006, 11:04:39 AM »

Question, how is the strip of foundation kept in place in the frame?  The frames I get have the groove in the top and bottom bar.

Is slipping the foundation strip into the top groove enough to hold it in place?

Does your frames have what appears to be a loose piece of wood on the top bars? If so, that is a wedge. You break it off, put in your wax starter strip, place the wedge against the wax and nail it on there. Great if you have air nailer/stapler.

OR... you can melt some wax and pour it into the top groove to hold it, but it will not stay there just by sliding it in. I have not done the melted wax method, but I believe it would be better. Even after nailing the stuff in it sometimes falls out if not done just right.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2006, 11:06:28 AM »

If you use starter strips, what supports the comb as only one side would be attached? Particularly if you use an extractor.

You can place wires in the frame and the bees will build the comb around them. Or wait until they have attached the comb to all the sides and do it carefully
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rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

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kathyp
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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2006, 11:37:01 AM »

Quote
You can place wires in the frame and the bees will build the comb around them. Or wait until they have attached the comb to all the sides and do it carefully

i had thought of the melted wax, but wondered if it would work.  i only plan to do this on shallow supers.  i'm thinking i can get by without extra support of wires?  also, if i were to do it on deeps do you think you'd have to use wires if the deeps were on used for brood.  i'm worried about sagging or melting in heat.

as i said, my goal is good wax.  i only intend to do this with one hive.  good wax is worth more than honey!! but you don't get so much sad
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Jerrymac
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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2006, 02:56:38 PM »

if i were to do it on deeps do you think you'd have to use wires if the deeps were on used for brood.  i'm worried about sagging or melting in heat.

as i said, my goal is good wax.  i only intend to do this with one hive.  good wax is worth more than honey!! but you don't get so much sad

I only use deeps and I started with starter strips, (using the wedge to hold them) and have had no problem with the heat (as in 100+ F sometimes) (And full direct Texas sunshine) I have open bottoms covered with screen.
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Jorn Johanesson
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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2006, 05:46:16 PM »

When the bees start to build on the strips, they will secure those to the frame. So if it is not loose in the top grove, just put the strip in, place in the hive and let the bees do the job they know about. I have used strips myself ocasenly, when I ran out of normal wax. You will benefit from also having bees working instead of swarming. At least this is one of the things to take in use. If you hive a swarm then benefit from the building ability.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2006, 06:34:15 PM »

Someone just pointed out this book;

"Natural Beekeeping: Organic Approaches to Modern Apiculture" (Hardcover)
by Ross Conrad

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Beekeeping-Organic-Approaches-Apiculture/dp/1933392088/sr=1-9/qid=1166136519/ref=sr_1_9/102-0903725-9381709?ie=UTF8&s=books
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Brian D. Bray
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« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2006, 12:15:56 AM »

Wax poured into the groove of the topp bar is the best method for securing foundation, the second best is the wedged top bar.  I use strips without wires--I've found the bees reluctant to work wax (comb) over the wire--you will end up with liniar strips of unconnected wax and comb.  I omit the wire entirely as it is not needed.  As the comb ages it becomes harder and harder.  Comb built early in the spring will be strong enough to weather the extractor.  New (white) wax is too soft so it is best to cut out the honey and comb as cut-comb.  The bees will rebuild the cut out combs very rapidly. 

As Jorn alluded to: giving the bees a lot of room to build comb is a good way to keep them from swarming.  I encourage that by using starter strips and moving the outer frames up into the super and replacing the outer frames with strips.  The bees then turn their energy to comb building rather than swarming.
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