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Author Topic: Minimum number of bees to start a Nuc?  (Read 5772 times)
Cindi
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2006, 09:44:13 AM »

Finsky, nope you did not address the point.  You say that varroa is also under your command.  That is great, but how?  I lost control of the varroa mite this year, I did not understand the symptoms.  I saw the symptoms of high varroa levels, but did not realize what these symptoms meant.  In looking back, of course I know what these signs meant, but not during the summer.  I was very kniave to the mite.  I lost 6 hives because of ignorance of this pest.  I now have 4 left, I am hoping that I treated these colonies in time and that they were strong enough at the time, that they will come through the winter.  It was a very disconcerting event to lose so much because of ignornace.  Great day.  Cindi

P.S. It is interesting that the hives that are left weere the packages hived last spring and a swarm that I caught.  The three incredibly strong colonies that I had overwintered last year, eventually all died out, even having made splits from them.
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Finsky
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2006, 10:14:45 AM »

You say that varroa is also under your command.  That is great, but how? 

I have give the cure every year. I have never calculated mites. I am able to look from drone brood where I am going.  5 years ago I had apistan resistant varroa population and I losed hives. But now varroa is not problem at all. I do work with varroa very little and I have not special systems against it.

With chalk brood I am working quite much.  AFB needs also work. I mean, it is not easy to keep bee yard in condition. It need all the time work but vain work is vain work.  If you do not take care of your hives they drop to your hands like rotten apple.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2006, 10:22:59 AM »

Finsky uses oxalic acid. See it here;

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=3892.0

Here is Finnsh concept to handle varroa. We have no problems with that creature any more.

Heating of oxalic acid generates formic adic.

There are 2 parts in handling:

1) killig mites with vapur when bees have brood and outer temperature is high.  Idea is kill mites so that they do not violate wintering bees. Efficiency is 70%.
2) Second and final cure with trickling when all brood have emerged . Efficiency is high because all mites are on bees.

I use only trickling because my mite level is very low in summer.

http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136436349
http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136437131

These methods have generated in Europe and tested to each country that they work. Testing in Finland took 3 years. Our authors are  professionals in beekeping.
.


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Scadsobees
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« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2006, 12:22:52 PM »

To get back to the topic.... shocked

If you have 5 hives that you want to fill...I've never tried to split a 3 lb package, but there are other who do, if you are willing to put a lot of syrup in them, it can work.  Yes they will take longer to build up and need some extra help, but it will help them if they are in a nuc.  If all goes well you will end up with 2 healthy hives and no surplus or increase.

The other option if you have the time...talk to some exterminators(the smaller companies) and get them to call you if they get swarms.  This is a great way to build up.  Many say that we should charge for swarms, but it is still cheaper to build up that way than paying $80 for a package.  The trick is to contact the correct exterminators.

Above all, feed feed feed.  Until there are 2 deeps per hive drawn.

-rick
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Rick
Finsky
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« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2006, 12:54:07 PM »



Above all, feed feed feed.  Until there are 2 deeps per hive drawn.

-rick

Not good idea. Bees can nurse brood only so much as they have nurser bees.

And 2 deeps to build, with what measure of bees and in waht time of year?

If you force bees build so much as possible, they will too stressed and short living. They may stop brood raising.



.
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TwT
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« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2006, 03:24:28 PM »

I disagree finman, to get more bee's you have to feed, feed and feed, I have seen it for a few years now and feeding even when there is a flow will increase bee count, I have seen it for a few years now and the queen raiser's always feed most of the year, and I have seen most of the queen sellers here in Ga. feed also so I know sugar water makes bee's. that's what I have seen.....
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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

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Finsky
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« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2006, 03:33:38 PM »

I disagree finman, to get more bee's you have to feed, feed and feed, I have seen it for a few years now and feeding even when there is a flow will increase bee count, I have seen it for a few years now and the queen raiser's always feed most of the year, and I have seen most of the queen sellers here in Ga. feed also so I know sugar water makes bee's. that's what I have seen.....


Nonsence that kind of advice.  I may see feeders in every your hive in summer  but  what is the idea? When you are going to get honey?

What size of colony you are talking about and what time of summer?

I have feeded wit pollen and pollen patty hives 17 years and different races. I know quite well how colony react on feeding.

In summer they get honey and pollen from nature. They nurse so much brood as they are able to feed and keep warm.

If you have a nuc which have not  over 3 week old bees, it is not able to gather foof from nature. Otherwise small colonies fill the hive so fast that they swarm. They are not able to grow.

What is the aim of operation?

Look at this picture. http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/Kuva_033.jpg

It is a good hive and at the end of June it has 7 boxes full of bees. I may put a laying queen in every box and I get 7 or even 14 good hives before winter.  In picture moment it had 140 lbs honey and 3 weeks later it took 240 lbs honey more.  You may get honey and you may increase hive number in same summer, but not with feeding sugar. 

My advice is exract, extract, extract

It is very easy to multiply hives. But what then?


.
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TwT
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« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2006, 04:04:58 PM »

see finsky bro that's where honey production and queen rearing stops, the statement I made above is for hive increases not honey production, if you want to make bee's for hive production then you feed all you can, if you want honey production then you must be satisfied with the number of hives you have then collect honey, but for raising bee's and hive increasing feed, feed, feed.... and that is the way to go!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and that is all!!!!!!!!!!! Now I know a guy that has been raising queens for 55 years and he is also a commercial seller of queens, if you told him not to feed bee's he would laugh in your face,  he live buy the rule if you are trying to raise queens or bee's feed , feed , feed..... sorry bro but that's the way it is!!!
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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

Never be afraid to try something new.
Amateurs built the ark,
Professionals built the Titanic
Finsky
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« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2006, 04:24:36 PM »

but for raising bee's feed, feed, feed....

I do not know where you live. We have so much nectar and pollen in nature that bees get food from nature more that they have roon in nucs.

The cycle of bees' development is 4 weeks.  Even you feed them, they do not emerge faster.

One week larva, 2 weeks pupa and 1 week to substitude the bees which have died during brood development.

An when beginner feeds and feeds and feeds, he gets swarms even from 3-lbs nucs. Then he has virgin queen which start to lay 10 days later and again colony began to grow after 4 weeks. 

In this situation, beginner has spent about  2 months and his nuc is about same size as at the beginning.  These stories we have handled here a lot.

.



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TwT
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« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2006, 06:38:07 PM »

finman brings up a good point, now see I was talking about raising bee's and having enough bee's to shack to make more nuc's such...
 now if you want to raise enough hives to increase then use my method until you get enough hive, feeding bee's will make them swarm if your not shacking bee's from a hive that you are feeding or decreasing the population in some case, if you are not raising bee's then I wouldn't use my method of feeding.........
.
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THAT's ME TO THE LEFT JUST 5 YEARS FROM NOW!!!!!!!!

Never be afraid to try something new.
Amateurs built the ark,
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Cindi
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« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2006, 11:08:50 PM »

the more I read, the more confused I become, I will extract all the good intent of all that contribute to eveything, then I will certainly make my own decisions, but this is all a tough one.  Who has the most right and best idea.  Who knows.  I hear that a long time ago, that ask 12 beekeepers a question, and you will get 12 different answers.  How can such a simple culture have so many different ideas.  Especially when I see the pictures of so many different shapes and sizes of hives.  What is wrong with a completely standard hive, that is the same, no matter what country you are in.  Perplexed.  Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
Finsky
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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2006, 11:26:30 PM »

finman brings up a good point, now see I was talking about raising bee's and having enough bee's to shack to make more nuc's such...
 now if you want to raise enough hives to increase then use my method until you get enough hive, feeding bee's will make them swarm if your not shacking bee's from a hive that you are feeding or decreasing the population in some case, if you are not raising bee's then I wouldn't use my method of feeding..........


Twt. What have you drinked. To get honey is same as raise bees. We have here very short season and we needso much bees as it is possible. If I need number of hives I devide hive and give to it laying queen. But you cannot understand that we have so much nectar in nature that there is no need to keep feeders in summer. 

And feeding. It means that bees draw foundations. Bees draw combs only if they get honey.

When I expanded my yard  40 yards ago from couple of hives to 20, I bought swarms. I put swarms together and noticed that 8 lbs it the best size to get colony move on. That swarm build in a week 2 deeps wit the aid of sugar syrup. Soon they had 1,5 box brood. After 4-5 weeks from beginning they had 3 boxes bees.

Now as wiser, if I have  2 frame colony in the end of August I will raise it in two monts to 5 box colony. If you are able to that, tell me.
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Finsky
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« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2006, 02:20:58 AM »

Dear Professor TWT

Stop playing. Would you please this and then get experience how to explose the number of bees.

Sugar feeding is grandfathers knowledge. It works if you satisfied it but I do not want to hear it from professors mouth in the end of year 2006.

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf

« Last Edit: December 12, 2006, 11:29:11 PM by Finsky » Logged
Scadsobees
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« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2006, 08:40:26 AM »

I agree that stimulating feeding established hives is probably overused.

But from what I understand, Greg is starting out with 5 brand new hives.  I'm guessing that the point is to fill all 5 hives as soon as possible, honey being secondary this year.

Since honeyflow stimulates brood rearing and comb-building, it would be in the best interest of somebody desiring an increase of bees to simulate a honeyflow by feeding sugar syrup when a honeyflow isn't happening.

Of course, this is done with discretion.  If a swarm in a small hive looks imminent, then that is a prime time for a split and a new hive.  Just make sure they always have sufficient resources (food = sugar of some kind).  So during a dearth, if they don't have all the brood drawn, keep sugar available for them to convert to wax.

I think that the point is to get the most bee increase at the least cost.  If you have many swarms around then combine them, etc.  If you don't, then start smaller and make sure they have the resources to increase as fast as possible.  If you only want to spend about $80 for bees to get started (and I don't want to spend more than that), then you will have to split packages,feed,and be very patient and attentive.


-rick
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Rick
Cindi
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« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2006, 10:25:54 AM »

Rick, I wonder if it is the same in many climates.  Here our queens begin heavy brood rearing by the beginning of February (probably already began lightly in January).  We begin to feed 1:1 s.s. February 15 and pollen patty (or pollen frames if we have them).  This stimulates the bees to believe that nectar flow is occurring, long before it actually does.  This is our climate.

I would like to know if that is commonplace throughout the colder parts of the states too?  The question.
Do most beekeepers simulate the nectar flow in spring?  Great day. Cindi
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There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service
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« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2006, 12:18:01 PM »

Great topic. I bought two deeps this summer. One 5/3/06 and the other 6/23/06. The second one was always the inferior hive in numbers and never increased significantly. I followed the advice of many who believe over feeding is hurtful. This second hive never expanded beyond one deep. In late August, I met w/ a mentor w/ lots of experience. he said we were in a horrible dearth locally and the small hive needed to be fed or it would never make through winter. I fed it 5gal of HFCS and several feedings of sugar water too. They finally drew out a medium above the deep, expanded their population and I was able to get them winter ready9I hope). The moral of the story(I think), is w./ experience you can recognize the need to feed. Mr Bush says, "it will work if you let it." Its a fine line between letting the bees do their thing, and over-managing them. I wish I had fed the one hive earlier in the year. I am personally reluctant to over manage as I beleive the bees know what to do. We are usually a hindrance, not the great "benefactor" beekeepers believe we are. Prudent feeding is a must, overfeeding is wrong. Knowing when these two conditions are present is the key. I wish I could borrow all of the visual experiences of the very experience beekeepers so I could make the correct choice next time.
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« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2006, 01:58:16 PM »


It is a big missunderstanding if some one believe that raising up the hive is feeding - not feeding question.

Is it possible that beekeeping can be written in two sentences:

1) raise much bees
2) put them on good pastures.

It does not work so.

It is easy to read advice but it makes much effort to understand how to do it. Practice practice practice. Problems teach best and most learn never.
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Jerrymac
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« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2006, 02:33:47 PM »

The temperature is near 60f today and the bees are out in full force going through the trash, seeking out soft drink cans. Wonder if they will think there is a flow on. And all this week it get warmer. Up to 70F by Saturday.
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« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2006, 03:11:49 PM »

.

Jerry! How much you have catched swarms alltogether during these some years?
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« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2006, 03:29:15 PM »

Hi Cindi,
I'm still in the beginning of the practice,practice,practice stage, and haven't done much with the spring stimulative feeding.  If I were to, I don't think I'd start much before the middle of March, when the maples bloom.  Most of the time the maples start blooming and we get a couple days of wonderful weather, then we get a week or two of 30F weather so they don't break cluster often.  By the time it is consistent then there are minor flows starting.  I'll see how they are doing in the spring and contemplate it then.
_______
There are also different kinds of feeding.  Stimulative feeding is going to be different than fall feeding.  A miller feeder might clog up a brood nest where a quart jar with some holes punched in the lid won't as quick(I don't think so, at least!).  I think it is important with non-autumn feeding to make sure you know what is going on inside, brood nest condition, hive condition, stores conditions, etc.  And stop feeding when they get to where you want them to be.

For a larger or more experienced beekeeper it is easier to let a hive go or to move it to better forage, but for a small hobbiest with a few in the back yard, that isn't an option.  I had 2 hives this spring that had dwindled to less than 2 frames each back which I baby'ed back to health with the help of new queens and feeding, and they generated both a surplus of honey and a split (one of the queens was too hot).  If I had had more than a few hives I'd have just let them go and done a split from different hives.

-rick
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