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Author Topic: Minimum number of bees to start a Nuc?  (Read 6100 times)
Greg Peck
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« on: December 06, 2006, 10:18:48 PM »

I just have a quick question about starting nucs. What is the minimum amount of bees needed. Could I buy a 3 pound package of bees and 2 queens. Then split the bees so I would have 2 nucs with 1 1/2 pounds of bees and a queen in each? Or would I be better off starting a hive with a package and getting it going good then starting nucs by taking brood out and placing it in the nuc?

Just trying to keep the cost of buying multiple packages to a minimum.

Thanks for your time
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Finsky
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2006, 12:27:42 AM »

When I started beekeeping I bought swarms. They are like package bees. I noticed that the best solution is to put swarms together that it was 8 pounds in the hive. It was 2 full Langstroth boxes. That kind of hive was able to gather honey and brought money back during same summer.

One box bees needs 4 lbs bees and soon it has half full of brood and half full of honey. It must wait 6 week untill it has new bees that it may enlarge to 2 box. During that time old bees have almost died and new ones are not old enough to gather honey. Hive just englarge but is not able to get surplus yield for long ime. It takes time.

I mean that to minimize cost is not wise. Many other things in beekeeping cost and you do not get value for that with tiny hives.

If I were you, I should by nuc with brood or I should put 2 package hives together to get large enough hive.

When hive is normal size, you may split it after yield season and get more hives.

But young beekeepers cannot do that. They are afraid of honey ield. They like to keep small colonies in big hives and they do not learn beekeeping with their unnatural tiny colonies. The most valuable is to nurse normal hive and learn how to get honey. And how to prepare hive ahead. You must have experience that you may foresee what is happening in the hive and you may lead it to wanted direction..

If you do not want honey and incomes, it is all the same what you do. You may do what ever and you have not a purpose. Many like to count mites half a year when they do not know what is the purpose.

Excuse me for my sermon . After my advices 90% do what they intended to do before asking.





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mick
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2006, 01:48:42 AM »

I always enjoy your sermons. You are a very experienced beekeeper, who has made good money in a difficult climate. Theres no substitute for experience.
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Cindi
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2006, 09:32:32 AM »

Finsky, I agree with Mick.  I love to read your sermons too.  There is some very good advice that I have listened to from you.  I agree with you about having large amounts of bees in the hives.  In the past when I have had packages come from down under (Australia), these would have been 4 pound packages with 2 queens.  I would divide them in half and give each a queen.  This was a good thing though.  Because when I first started with beekeeping, the queen failed with one of the packages, I united this queenless colony with the queenright colony, so it did become very strong.  That was my first year.  I lived and maybe learned something from that in a way.  Now this last April I did the same thing, but I had overwintered colonies at the time when I got the packages.  So, this last hiving of the packages, again, a queen failed.  But I used queen cells from one of the overwintered colonies to requeen this queenless package.  So that worked.

I don't know if my colonies (4 now) will overwinter.  I have fed them for over 30 days 2:1 s.s., so I imagine that they would have enough stores.  I hope all goes well.  We will see in February, that is when we have weather that is fair enough to safely check into the hive to see if all was well.  If I get packages this year (which I am sure I will), I am thinking that I am not going to get the packages from Australia.  We'll see.  I did not realize there were so many places closer that provided packages.  I have learned so much.  Anyways, when I get packages with extra queens, what I will do is take some brood and bees from my stronger colonies and make nucs.  I will use the packages to create big, strong colonies.  For example.  If the packages come with 4 pounds and 2 queens, I will make a 4 pound colony, take that extra queen and create the nuc.  I am hoping to not have any queen failure.  We'll see.  Such learning curves in the new beekeeper.  But it is all good.  Great day.  Cindi 

PS, do you keep gardens at your place?
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2006, 10:19:14 AM »

Then split the bees so I would have 2 nucs with 1 1/2 pounds of bees and a queen in each?

Greg,

You wouldn't have 2 - 1.5lb nucs, you would have 2 - 1.5lb packages.  Nuc infers a laying queen with brood.    Packages take almost a month before you start getting replacement bees from hatching brood and during this time actually reduce quite a bit in numbers (and strength)  3lb. packages are the norm,  some use 2lbs.  But in this case more is better.  When I use to buy packages,  I never used less than 3lbs. Spring build up is critical, and they can easily miss being stong enough for the flow. 

You should concentrate on creating less in quantity stronger hives, than more in quantity weaker hives.  You will be better off in the long run. You can split strong hives in the fall and overwinter nucs for the next year and be farther ahead of trying to nurse weak colonies thru the winter.

If you want to increase your number of hives in a more economical way consider collecting swarms.  Get the word out there with your local police and fire departments and they will get you referals.   Yes it is more work,  but it takes less $$.  In fact, if you do removals from structures, you can make a few $$ to use towards equipment as well.   All depends on the amount of time you can put into it.
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Finsky
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2006, 03:45:59 PM »

When you raise bees it is good to know that full brood frame produces 3 frames bees.   
3 full brood frames produces one Langtroth box NEW bees which are able to nurse whole box of brood. But they do not forage during next brood cycle.

* If you have 3 frames bees, they are able to raise about 1/2 -1  frame of brood.
* 4 frames bees raise 2 brood frames
* 5 raise 3 brood frame.

So you see that colony is able to keep warm a certain area of brood .

When queen started egg laying after 4 -5 weeks the colony start to grow. If colony has brood frames which some emerge, colony grows all the time.

*****************

THE MINIMUM NUC

Minimum nuc to me is 3 frames. Colony is able to keep warm center frame and raise brood.

Frame is soon full and I may take it off and give from big hive a frame of emerging brood. After a week I have 3+3 frames full of bees and they are able to raise 4 frame brood.

Then again I give a frame of emerging brood. After a week I have whole box occupied by bees and they are able to raise perhaps 6-7 frames of brood.

IF YOU LEAVE A NUC ALONE it is really slow what happens. After a month you have those 3 frames full of bees.  But if you give emerging brood from bigger hive, after a month whole box is full of bees and brood.

And after 2 months  the aided hive has 2-3 box full of bees and that by own aid hive has about half box of bees.

But those bees from emerging frames are off from big hive. It is not able to carry so much honey as with one box more.  When big hive have lost 30%  (one box from 3 box) bees to nucs, it is not able at all gather surplus honey.  It is able to feed 2 box of brood and those bees are able to gather honey after 6 weeks.

That is rough math.

**************

TIME  3 WEEKS AS BROOD + 3 WEEKS TO GROW FORAGER = OVER 6 WEEKS

When you have a swarm, it takes 4-weeks untill new bees start to emerge, During this time half of old bees have died. It is not able gather honey much. When new bees amerge, they are able to gather honey after 3 weeks.   

So you have brood time 3-4 weeks and bees need 3 weeks to become to foraging age =  6-7 weeks since you installed a package or a swarm.

Our summer is short.  Our yield season is 2 months (June-July).  We have not time to raise weak colonies. It is waste. They will be too weak for winter.  You have much more longer summer and you have a lot of time to raise your colonies and you panic that they are too small.

But if you think calculations, how slow MIMINUM NUC grows, it is not usefull at all.

AND FINALLY

You may fill your valuable nuc combs with syrup and queen has not room for brood.  Same happens if bees get much nectar outside. I think that this is the biggest froblem with beginner. Second broblem is that you have 3 frames bees but 10 frames in the box. Small nuc has difficulties to control they brood area temperature and build up is very slow.

I use to take off food frames from nucs that they have allways free comb. I may take a larvae frame to bigger hive to be feeded. But when I shake a frames, I lost part of open brood.

IF YOU COLLECT HONEY FOR WINTER, COLONY HAS NOT ENOUGH ROOM TO RAISE WINTERING BEES.

Feed with sugar and take honey away during summer.



help your self!

.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2006, 07:05:22 PM »

If you're point is increase, then Finsky is right.  It takes a volume of bees to build up.  The more there are, the more quickly it can reach critical mass.

If the point is the minium number that can survive and eventually build up, a handful of bees in a two frame medium nuc will build up.  But they will be lucky to make it from a two frame mating nuc in late June to a five frame medium nuc in October.
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Greg Peck
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2006, 11:15:13 PM »

Thanks for all the input. I think I will take Finsky’s advice and possibly put two packages in one hive to get it going strong right off the bat. I have built 5 hives for next season but really don’t have the funds to buy enough packages to get them all up and running. I had thought that I would put one packages in one hive and then do the split package nuc idea with another package in order to get 2 more hives going over the course of the season.

I have one small hive right now that may or may not make it through the winter. Would it be a good idea to buy 2 packages (3 pound each)  put approximately 4 pounds in a new hive then add 2 pounds to the old hive to help to get it up to production level sooner? If that was a possibility can I just dump the 2 pounds of bees into the old hive or is there a procedure I need to follow. I will probably use the queen from the package as I have no info on the queen that is in the hive now, she may be old and decrepit.

About taking the frames of brood out of  established hives to set up nucs. When you take a frame of brood out what do you do to fill the space. Move the existing frames inward and then add a new frame to the edge of the hive? I assume that it would be best to give them a drawn frame is that necessary?

Some one had commented that my frames looked dark and old. To introduce new frames in the hive body do I just take a frame out and add one with foundation in it? I guess that is the only way to obtain drawn frames.

Robo, I am definitely going to be trying to catch some swarms and will probably do some removals as well. The local bee supply shop here has a list to get on for those proposes. He told me that he normally gets around 75 calls a year for swarms. This is the reason for building 5 hives I hope to use packages on some and swarms in the remaining ones.

Thanks again everyone for your help.
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« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2006, 02:38:03 AM »


I have one small hive right now that may or may not make it through the winter.

When you have one hive, it is impossible to know what happens to it. It is lottery.  In my yard  totally dead colonies are very rare but weakened conoy for nosema are usual.  If hive gets nosema, it is very slow to build up in spring.  - Yu will se.


Quote
I have built 5 hives for next season but really don’t have the funds to buy enough packages to get them all up and running. I had thought that I would put one packages in one hive and then do the split package nuc idea with another package in order to get 2 more hives going over the course of the season.

It is better if you get a real nuc which has brood combs.


If you want to play fast:

I learned 4 years ago how to play with electrict heating in spring + pollen patty eating.  I lost 2/3 my hives and I took into use all what I knew how to play with small colonies.

The cost of 7-15 W terrarium heater is 20$.  Some make it themselves.  Then pollen feeding during spring season.  I got 3 times more rapid spring build up than with natural waiting system

3 W electrict heating in winter is good for small hive and ensure that it is in good condition after winter.

If you have extra mobile phone loader and you put it into electrict circuit, you feel that it is guite warm. Even it gives extra heat to small colony. Terrarium cable heaters are water resistant.

Heaters are usefull if temperature is under 15C (59F). And it helps during night when it is much colder.
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Cindi
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« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2006, 12:04:53 PM »

Greg, your comment below:

>Some one had commented that my frames looked dark and old. To introduce new frames in the hive body do I just take a frame out and add one with foundation in it? I guess that is the only way to obtain drawn frames.>

Greg, I recall someone mentioning in response to your post quite some time ago about the old looking frames, being dark and old.  I did not understand their comment and I think that it does need some clarification. 

In my eyes, the frames did not really look old.  Some of mine look even "darker and older" than yours.  Mine could only be no older than 1-1/2 years at the most.

Now, I somehow got the impression that it is good to have old frames, drawn foundation obviously.  I realize that after so many years, the cells can become smaller due to cocoons from the babies and so on and this is not good.

So, the question to be put out there is:  does not the cocoons, propolis, wax, strengthen the frames so that there may not be sagging or weak combs?

I keep hearing about small cell foundation.  Another question.

If the cells (say on a standard foundation) become smaller with the cocoons, etc., would that not be a good thing, in that so many beekeepers seem to be wanting smaller cells so that the varroa mite cannot be such a strong infliction, or am I getting the wrong impression on things.  Great day. Cindi

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« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2006, 12:06:11 PM »

Finsky,
I love to hear your comments on things, very informative.  And I also love so many of the comments that other seasoned  beekeepers give too, so much wonderful information that we can all listen to and learn from.  Great day. Cindi
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2006, 01:31:00 PM »


To me combs are old if light does not come through when you look against light.  The "age" depends on how many brood cycles has been in combs.
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Trot
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2006, 04:13:28 PM »



Q:
Now, I somehow got the impression that it is good to have old frames, drawn foundation obviously.  I realize that after so many years, the cells can become smaller due to cocoons from the babies and so on and this is not good.

A:
It is true. Cells do become smaller with time and it is not good cause they can also harbor all sorts of things detrimental to hive health.

Q:[/quote]
So, the question to be put out there is:  does not the cocoons, propolis, wax, strengthen the frames so that there may not be sagging or weak combs?

A:
True. The older the comb the stronger it gets. Years ago they tested an 20 year old comb and it supported a grown man. Standing on it on flat side, of course.

Q:[/quote]
I keep hearing about small cell foundation.  Another question.

A:
This is another area of beekeeping an we don't want to go there, cause it may cause some heated debate.
A lot of keepers use it, (I do!) Others scream for scientific proof - cause they never tried it. (They have no intend to cause they might prove to themselves that they were shouting in the wind before.)

Q:[/quote]
If the cells (say on a standard foundation) become smaller with the cocoons, etc., would that not be a good thing, in that so many beekeepers seem to be wanting smaller cells so that the varroa mite cannot be such a strong infliction, or am I getting the wrong impression on things.  Great day. Cindi

A:
You are a very good observer. (Have the making of a great beek!)
Very good ! But one would have to wait a loooong time to get such comb to the size required in "small cell - SC" keeping.  (I should also mention that with all the "medicating," that wouldn't be a very good thing...)
There are many things at play in such an scenario. Normal comb cells are roughly 5.4 mm in size, SC is usually 4.9 mm and smaller. To keep bees on SC one has to regress ones bees! (Big bees don't feet in small cells - roughly speaking) Therefore keepers buy commercially available SC foundation. But usually it takes a few years to get bees down to SC comb - usually at the loss of most bee hives.
More natural approach IMO is that one lets bees build what they want, where and when they want it.
Naturally bees build 3 size cells: SC in center of the brood nest, a bit bigger, 5.1 mm say next and big, 5.6 to 8.0 thirdly - for drone and honey storage.
One should keep in mind that the core of the nest is not disturbed. Same frame - back in same slot!
This is roughly the idea of my SC thing...
 

Regards,
Trot
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2006, 04:38:05 PM »

.
Yes, that small cells- black magic.  I want big bees, big hives and big honey yields. Many have tried small cells and regretted his losses.

When bees have too thick walls  in old cells they bite walls down and build new combs. Then you can see when there like coffee granules on bottom.  Same they do if cells are moulded.
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 05:29:33 PM »


This is another area of beekeeping an we don't want to go there, cause it may cause some heated debate.
A lot of keepers use it, (I do!) Others scream for scientific proof - cause they never tried it.


Trot,
Haven't been here long have you. Search the archives cause we have had discussion many times here. There are a few of us that do the small cell thing. Some the natural cell thing (you know, let the bees do it.) some of us do nothing but ferals, and some wouldn't touch a feral with a hive tool.
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2006, 07:25:08 PM »

What a observation jerry.
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Trot
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2006, 08:21:04 PM »

Jerrymack,
no need to peel something off just to make an issue. I have been around bees for 52 years, some of them professionally! Wrangling my own outfit!   And admittedly, I still don't know nothing! (not unlike some...)
I have been on this site long enough to know exactly who would  be the first to respond on this topic. I admit, I haven't been active, though... And I have said it before and will again: "I don't like much telling others what to do. . . ."

And thank you. I have no need to search the archives, I can still see those debates in my minds eye...
Table is still set the same: Those of us who have insight and open mind - on one side and those who believe it's [Quote: black magic -end of quote] on the other. . . .

And yes, I too, yearly, set out my swarm traps. Five of them... Who knows, in my part of the woods, (literally) I might some day even catch one.

Doing it naturally? God, I've been doing it longer for what I care to remember! Started in Europe in early fifties. Quite by chance, really. Could not afford man-made stuff. If I could, afford it, there was none to  be-get in post-war days.  Glad that more keepers are going that way lately. Although I'm afraid that for some is more of a fad - in Vogue - than a necessity

I do admit though: Hunger and greed will force a man to engage in peculiar thing?!
That brings me to Finsky's writings...



I agree Finsky, SC is not for you! You will never try it - in a thousand years!  Your yield might fall a pound or two?!
I also agree that you should get the biggest bees possible.  Just don't say it too loud...
Your neighbours in Russia have this year adopted new standard for their foundation. I'm sure that is 5.6 or even 5,8 mm. No matter, the bigger the better, right?

That about black comb is also right.
Last Summer I drove 400 km, to buy one such comb. I had to prove the point - to someone.
I put it in brood nest and you know, you are right Finsky. They chewed it all up, in about one week!  
It was as you put it: " . . .like coffee granules on bottom."
On the frame? It was nothing left - but bunch of wires.
And you know what? In a few days they made nice new comb! 5.0 mm in the core, a bit bigger towards the periphery and about 5.8 and bigger under the top bar... And one more thing, lots keepers don't know it - they used, recycled all that wax!  
The coffee grinds, Finsky, were all chewed up cocoons...
The new comb was almost the same colour as the old. Well, not really, but it was nice and brown.
Yes, a lot of this goes on in one's hives and keepers don't usually know it. I sure didn't, when I ran my outfit.
Telling the truth... I really didn't give a darn. The objective was honey! And time was money!

Yes, bees know best - for what they want and when they want it!
So don't buck'm.  .  !

Regards,
Trot
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« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2006, 12:08:33 AM »


I agree Finsky, SC is not for you! You will never try it - in a thousand years!  

Fine, fine !  To me beekeping is not a hoppy "try everything what others say. I agree that if you have nursed bees over 50 years, it is time to try small cell.

I know many beekeepers who said that they tried small cells and it did not worked. Bees are not able to draw cells.

I have queens from one small cel beekeper. When I saw the size of queens I was amazed what are these? Why he send to me these?  OK, they bring honey but half what I got from big bees.

Most of all beekeepers are fond of all kind of bottom boards and inner covers. None of these bring honey.  Many like just make their own variations what ever they is.

I like benchmarking. I have studied it 15 years in my work: "Take into use best practices which is allready working".

I have many hobbies and trials. But what I am not going to. I do not raise mites. I want it run on minimum. Many beekeepers are mad with their mites. It commands their whole beekeeping.

I take care my self but when advanced beekepers are proposing "natural cells" and "small cells" to beginner, I surely use my big voice.

.
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« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2006, 08:36:26 AM »

Finsky, you said that you do not raise mites.  Good idea.  But I would love to hear your tactics to combat these invaders.  I remember reading in one of your posts that your hives have lived with the varroa for many years.  I know that you said you use O.A., but what else do you employ to keep the levels low?  Great day. Cindi
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« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2006, 09:23:29 AM »

Finsky, you said that you do not raise mites. 

That means that I do not "regress myself under the mighty power of mites". I do not make all those tricks what people are thinking: calculate, screen bottom, small cells, regressed bees, natural cells, special races, ice sugar play.......

Many have changed their stardard hives accorging to varroa. Why

And when they do that all, they do not tell what affect it has on honey yield. It seems that varroa is their life. Beekeeping is not interesting without varroa.

I have had varroa 20 years.

I am master in my beeyard and even varroa is under my command. Many wonder if bee is wiser than human. In my yard human is wiser, that is sure. The winner will write the history. tongue

.

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