Building Frames

[nepenthes]

I did a search and couldnt find any thing.

Im VERY frustrated... My Outer cover isnt the right size, My Bottom board doesnt have the right measurement.  .

And then I give up on those until I can actualy have time To FIX them, I decide to start on frames, I have a ton to do, and I sat their for half an hour, Trying to get the foundation in, Trying to keep the foundation in while putting the groves lined up, and it was total Frustration! and when I put it in I cant nail it cause I have to hold every thing together....


How do you build frames and foundation? 

[pdmattox]

Hello Cody,
I think you should try putting the wood together first(don't forget the glue)then nail.  With that done and glue dried try to put the foundation in. Hope this helps on the frame assembly.

[Michael Bush]

A J21 stapler or, better yet, a 1/4" crown staper, is a great help.  Putting frames together is simply difficult. Little nails that bend easily etc.  A frame assembly jig is helpful for putting the frames together.  A foundation board is helpful for putting foundation in and essential for wiring foundation.

[kathyp]

i have a compressor, so i got a nailer/stapler.  made the whole thing much easier. if you can't do that, use a smaller hammer.  it's easier than a big one for such tight work. i didn't use glue, but many do. foundation goes in after frames are built.    you are using wax foundation in wood frames?  at the top of the frame should be a thin strip of wood that will strip away from the frame with a screwdriver or knife (don't cut yourself!).  foundation will go in easily with strip removed and you just tack it back in when you are done.  and....it doesn't have to be perfect.  just secure.

[Brian D. Bray]

When building frames the foundation is always the last thing added. 
1.  Build a jig--mine hold 9 medium frames.
1a. Put in eyelets if you're using them.
2.  Positiion end pieces and nail top bar onto them.
3.  Attach bottom bar.
4.  Wire frames
5.  Place wax in frame and secure with cleat or settle in edgeless frames with bees wax.
6.  Embed wax into frames or install wax pins.

Discard busted peices and use in smoker.

[empilolo]

If you use nails, always give the sharp end a little tap with the hammer first, blunting the nails slightly. Funny enough, wood splits less often when nails are "blunted" first.

[Robo]

Use a frame jig as Brian suggested.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/
or
http://www.beesource.com/plans/framejig.htm

Also soaking the end bars in water helps reduced splitting.  Splitting seems to be highly dependent on the manufacturer.  Some are really good and some are just so so.

I also like to put a nail thru the top of the side bars, just under the top bar tab into the top bar.  Between using glue and these two nails, the chances of prying top bars off of full frames is greatly reduced.

[Mici]

the right choice of wood is also important. linden wood is the best for frames.

[nepenthes]

Thanks for the links and suggestions.

Frames are horrible I don't like them any more.. I think ill go with the staple gun. The biggest Problem I have is putting the Wedge back with the Foundation in.

[beemaster]

Cody:

Really sorry to hear all the problems you are having. Usually, even without special jigs, frame assembly goes much easier. I know you even had fit issues with out covers, etc.. Al this seems so rare, I honestly have never seen such issues - I know your Mom is in a manic state. Best wishes buddy, hope all works out.

(light humor warning)

If your outer cover is 6 inches too long one way and 6 inches to short the other, rotate it 90 degrees and try again.

[kathyp]

the wedge is a PIA.  that's where the small hammer comes in handy.  before i got the gun, i used a multi-tool with a little hammer head.  it was just the right size to tap that wedge back in.  remember also that the wedge is not weight bearing, so you can use small nails or staples that will go into the wood a little easier.

[pdmattox]

Cody, next time you could buy them assembled with foundation for under $2.00 each.  That would take all of the fun out of the experince though.

[Brian D. Bray]

>>The biggest Problem I have is putting the Wedge back with the Foundation in.

And here I always thought it was the easiest part.

Robo,
Do  mean somebody forgets to put the cross nail in the frame?

[Robo]

Robo,
Do  mean somebody forgets to put the cross nail in the frame?

Probably more than not.  Most of the directions provide with frames are terrible. Most beginers have never experienced they joy of prying up a frame and only getting the top bar,  so it never crosses their mind when building.

[Scadsobees]

The directions for my first 20 frames had nothing about a cross nail. A few over-pried frames later, and it is a must.  And with my handy dandy little air-nailer, it is a real breeze!!

[Jerrymac]

Directions??? What directions? I never have seen directions for putting frames together.

[pdmattox]

The instructions is some of the stuff we throw away as soon as we upack everything.

[Kirk-o]

I realized a while ago that I didn't want my Beekeeping to be like everything else in my life.I usually have troble with my bees and beekeeping when I'm in a hurray.So I take my time know especially with the bees and it has removed my frustration.When I'm not working my bees I'm reading MICHEAL BUSH'S web page .The better I understand the better it takes ENJOY YOUR BEEKEEPING ACTIVITY
kiro

[Finsky]

Directions??? What directions? I never have seen directions for putting frames together.

Same with me. But it very funny that people do same work with very different way

Eyelets
Clue - not clue
nail, when and how much
how to tighten wires
how many wires 2, 3, 4, none
how to put wax
wax without lower gap, ow with 10 mm gap
how to embed wire inside wax

hit together in mount or with fingers
tighten wire with apparatus or with fingers

And perhaps many more

 

[beemaster]

I guess the makers of frame parts assume us beekeepers would use directions for smoker fuel - I've never seen them packed with parts either.

[Paraplegic Racehorse]

Just got my order of woodenware from Western Bee (shipping to Alaska is hideously expensive!!!). The boxes are going together pretty smoothly - I've only broken one out of 15 so far. However, the frames, I can see are going to drive me batty.

Here's the situation: I have 600 frames to assemble, this season. I'm going foundationless, so I'm not worried about embedding and all that nonsense. The woodenware did not come with nails or instructions. Advice on assembly I have been able to find suggest A) nail across the frame through the side-bars instead of down/up through top/bottom bars and B) use a frame assembly jig.

Crux of problem: What size nails to use and how do I find them in the quantities I'll need? My local hardware store has bulk nails in narrow-and-long or fat-and-short but not narrow-and-short. Also, how do I sideways nail the frames with a jig (that I will have to construct because I refuse to pay for such a thing). It appears they are designed to nail the frames from top/bottom down/up, but this is entirely contrary to popular advice.

Argh! I am confused.

[ChickenWing]

Just got my order of woodenware from Western Bee (shipping to Alaska is hideously expensive!!!). The boxes are going together pretty smoothly - I've only broken one out of 15 so far. However, the frames, I can see are going to drive me batty.

Here's the situation: I have 600 frames to assemble, this season. I'm going foundationless, so I'm not worried about embedding and all that nonsense. The woodenware did not come with nails or instructions. Advice on assembly I have been able to find suggest A) nail across the frame through the side-bars instead of down/up through top/bottom bars and B) use a frame assembly jig.

Crux of problem: What size nails to use and how do I find them in the quantities I'll need? My local hardware store has bulk nails in narrow-and-long or fat-and-short but not narrow-and-short. Also, how do I sideways nail the frames with a jig (that I will have to construct because I refuse to pay for such a thing). It appears they are designed to nail the frames from top/bottom down/up, but this is entirely contrary to popular advice.

Argh! I am confused.

Here is what I do....  I have made my own assembly jig.  Just look at the links given earlier for a plan.  It helps alot.   

When I am building them in the jig, first of all I glue everything.  Then, I put the first nail down through the top bar or bottom bar, like you said, this is easily done in the jig.  This will hold everything together.   Then when I take them out of the jig, I shoot one more nail at each corner, from the side bar into the top bar, and bottom bar.  So to answer your question, nail both up/down, and sideways.   

As far as nails, with that many to make, I would invest in a nailer.  If you don't have an air compressor, another alternative is an electric brad nailer.   I have an Arrow ET200.  It costs about $60 dollars, and works great.  There are other less expensive ones also, but I'm not sure how well they work.   Anyway, with this type of nailer, you buy packs of brad nails that are designed to load into them.   I use 18 guage, and 1'' long for frames.    It works like the air nailers, just aim, hold it firmly against the wood, and pull the trigger. 

If you want to nail by hand, you should ask the hardware store for "wire brads".  These are the short and narrow nails you are looking for.    8 per frame x 600 frames = 4800 nails.   Hmmm, I would definately get the nailer if you can swing it.   LOL   

[jimmyo]

I soak the ends of my frames in water so they don's split when I nail them.  I use Gorilla Glue. I put the glue on the bars and the ends are already wet because I'm soaking them in water. 
 If you look around you can find a brad pusher. It allows you to shove a brad by hand exactly where you want it.  They cost about five bucks.  sometimes you still have to tap them in with the hammer but the hard part is done by then.
 jim

[Robo]

A) nail across the frame through the side-bars instead of down/up through top/bottom bars

The cross nail should be in addition to the nails going down thru the top bar

B) use a frame assembly jig.

I have built both types and find Ross's to be easier to build and less complicated to use then the door spring version.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/

Crux of problem: What size nails to use and how do I find them in the quantities I'll need?

If your building that many frames, go with an air stapler, I regret I did not switch earlier.

I've put a ton of frames together with one of these.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40116

If you still want to hand nail,  check out the bee catalogs,  they sell nails and tell you what size to use for what.

Also, how do I sideways nail the frames with a jig. It appears they are designed to nail the frames from top/bottom down/up, but this is entirely contrary to popular advice.

The cross nail is in addition to the up/down nails and is put in after the glue has dried and the frames are removed from the jig.

[Michael Bush]

If I had 600 frames to put together I'd buy a 1/4" crown stapler and a jig.  Both are available from Walter T. Kelley, but considering shipping you might want to find them local.  These take a compressor (which everyone needs anyway for tires).  You can get by with a brad nailer, but with the 1/4" crown stapler you can use 1 1/2" staples for boxes and 1" staples for frames.  It's also nice to have some 5/8" staples for thin material where you don't want the staples coming through and 1 1/4" staples for when you want to nail two 3/4" boards without the staple coming through.

[Mklangelo]

I put all my frames together on my Kitchen table...  Of the 120 of them I assembled, I broke only one.  I did it with a Framing hammer too...   (for those that don't know what that is, Carpenters use it for rough work, it's big, long and heavy)  Next year I'll invest in a jig and a smaller hammer... It did work just fine for the boxes though.

I'm sort of a clumsy person at times so if I can do it, you can too!

OMG I'm reading these instructions and I used 8 nails in each frame.  Two at each end of the top bar into the side bars and two at each end of the bottom bar into the side bar (going straight up). And of course I used Titebond II Premium weather proof wood glue on the joint of the top bar and side bar.
 I didn't do any cross nailing.  Are my frames going to fall apart when their full of honey and comb?

[Michael Bush]

The glue will hold more than the nails.  If you glued them, they should hold together fine.

[kathyp]

compressor and some kind of nailer or stapler.  i have two.  the kind that MB likes and a stapler.  have used both.  don't know which i like best yet.  one for each hand?   

they are fun...and no one bugs you while you use it! 

[Bubba]

A 1/4 in crown stapler is great! The only problem that I have had is that some of the end bars waunt to splinter. Just take them and soak them in water for 10 min before starting to work with them then pull them out and set them in a handy place. This also aids in the moisture that is needed for the resin glue's to set up. ex (elmers ultimate and Gorilla glue)

[Brian D. Bray]

I nail 1 down into the end piece from the top bar.  Then I nail 2 into the end of the top bar from the end piece.  I've never used glue and have been building frames since 1959.  They don't pull apart and most parts can be salvaged when some frames eventually break--oops.

[Ross]

simple frame jig...
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/framejig1.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/framejig2.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/framejig3.jpg

Stock both ends with endbars, add glue, insert top bars and nail, flip over, add glue, insert bottom bars and nail.
Pull out the two slides, dump them out, and repeat as needed.