Need Bees Removed?
International
Beekeeping Forums
July 23, 2014, 12:42:20 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: ATTENTION ALL NEW MEMBERS
PLEASE READ THIS OR YOUR ACCOUNT MAY BE DELETED - CLICK HERE
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar bee removal Login Register Chat  

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Building Frames  (Read 4840 times)
nepenthes
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 512


Location: Ohio USA

Little honey bee in flight


WWW
« on: November 14, 2006, 08:24:41 PM »

I did a search and couldnt find any thing.

Im VERY frustrated... My Outer cover isnt the right size, My Bottom board doesnt have the right measurement.  angry .

And then I give up on those until I can actualy have time To FIX them, I decide to start on frames, I have a ton to do, and I sat their for half an hour, Trying to get the foundation in, Trying to keep the foundation in while putting the groves lined up, and it was total Frustration! and when I put it in I cant nail it cause I have to hold every thing together....


How do you build frames and foundation?  Cry
Logged

"I have never wished to cater to the crowd, for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know." - Epicurus.
pdmattox
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1118


Location: lake city, florida


WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2006, 08:54:53 PM »

Hello Cody,
I think you should try putting the wood together first(don't forget the glue)then nail.  With that done and glue dried try to put the foundation in. Hope this helps on the frame assembly. afro
Logged

Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13563


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2006, 09:53:40 PM »

A J21 stapler or, better yet, a 1/4" crown staper, is a great help.  Putting frames together is simply difficult. Little nails that bend easily etc.  A frame assembly jig is helpful for putting the frames together.  A foundation board is helpful for putting foundation in and essential for wiring foundation.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15026


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2006, 10:36:43 PM »

i have a compressor, so i got a nailer/stapler.  made the whole thing much easier. if you can't do that, use a smaller hammer.  it's easier than a big one for such tight work. i didn't use glue, but many do. foundation goes in after frames are built.    you are using wax foundation in wood frames?  at the top of the frame should be a thin strip of wood that will strip away from the frame with a screwdriver or knife (don't cut yourself!).  foundation will go in easily with strip removed and you just tack it back in when you are done.  and....it doesn't have to be perfect.  just secure.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2006, 01:52:45 AM »

When building frames the foundation is always the last thing added. 
1.  Build a jig--mine hold 9 medium frames.
1a. Put in eyelets if you're using them.
2.  Positiion end pieces and nail top bar onto them.
3.  Attach bottom bar.
4.  Wire frames
5.  Place wax in frame and secure with cleat or settle in edgeless frames with bees wax.
6.  Embed wax into frames or install wax pins.

Discard busted peices and use in smoker.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
empilolo
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51

Location: Nigeria


« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2006, 04:28:54 AM »

If you use nails, always give the sharp end a little tap with the hammer first, blunting the nails slightly. Funny enough, wood splits less often when nails are "blunted" first.
Logged
Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6391


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2006, 07:53:00 AM »

Use a frame jig as Brian suggested.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/
or
http://www.beesource.com/plans/framejig.htm

Also soaking the end bars in water helps reduced splitting.  Splitting seems to be highly dependent on the manufacturer.  Some are really good and some are just so so.

I also like to put a nail thru the top of the side bars, just under the top bar tab into the top bar.  Between using glue and these two nails, the chances of prying top bars off of full frames is greatly reduced.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2006, 02:36:33 PM by Robo » Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


Mici
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1502


Location: Zagradec, Grosuple, Lower Carniola, Slovenia

tougher than rock


WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2006, 09:34:11 AM »

the right choice of wood is also important. linden wood is the best for frames.
Logged
nepenthes
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 512


Location: Ohio USA

Little honey bee in flight


WWW
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2006, 02:46:52 PM »

Thanks for the links and suggestions.

Frames are horrible I don't like them any more.. I think ill go with the staple gun. The biggest Problem I have is putting the Wedge back with the Foundation in.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 03:16:45 PM by beemaster » Logged

"I have never wished to cater to the crowd, for what I know they do not approve, and what they approve I do not know." - Epicurus.
beemaster
Site Founder
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6221


Location: Manchester, NJ

It is my pleasure to bring the forums to you.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2006, 03:20:30 PM »

Cody:

Really sorry to hear all the problems you are having. Usually, even without special jigs, frame assembly goes much easier. I know you even had fit issues with out covers, etc.. Al this seems so rare, I honestly have never seen such issues - I know your Mom is in a manic state. Best wishes buddy, hope all works out.

(light humor warning)

If your outer cover is 6 inches too long one way and 6 inches to short the other, rotate it 90 degrees and try again.
Logged

NJBeemaster my YOUTUBE Video Collection
Follow us on TWITTER
SKYPE NJBeemaster - include your FORUM NAME in contact request
My Personal FACEBOOK Page


"All donations to our forums are greatly appreciated"
Please click HERE to help support our forum.
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15026


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2006, 04:53:43 PM »

the wedge is a PIA.  that's where the small hammer comes in handy.  before i got the gun, i used a multi-tool with a little hammer head.  it was just the right size to tap that wedge back in.  remember also that the wedge is not weight bearing, so you can use small nails or staples that will go into the wood a little easier.
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
pdmattox
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1118


Location: lake city, florida


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2006, 07:10:16 PM »

Cody, next time you could buy them assembled with foundation for under $2.00 each.  That would take all of the fun out of the experince though. cool
Logged

Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2006, 12:38:24 AM »

>>The biggest Problem I have is putting the Wedge back with the Foundation in.

And here I always thought it was the easiest part.

Robo,
Do  mean somebody forgets to put the cross nail in the frame?
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6391


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2006, 06:51:32 AM »

Robo,
Do  mean somebody forgets to put the cross nail in the frame?

Probably more than not.  Most of the directions provide with frames are terrible. Most beginers have never experienced they joy of prying up a frame and only getting the top bar,  so it never crosses their mind when building.
Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


Scadsobees
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3198


Location: Jenison, MI

Best use of smileys in a post award.


« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2006, 01:21:02 PM »

The directions for my first 20 frames had nothing about a cross nail. A few over-pried frames later, and it is a must.  And with my handy dandy little air-nailer, it is a real breeze!!
Logged

Rick
Jerrymac
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6047


Location: Wolfforth Texas


« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2006, 10:30:40 AM »

Directions??? What directions? I never have seen directions for putting frames together.
Logged

rainbow sunflower  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.   rainbow sunflower

 Jerry

My pictures.Type in password;  youview
     http://photobucket.com/albums/v225/Jerry-mac/
pdmattox
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1118


Location: lake city, florida


WWW
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2006, 10:34:09 AM »

The instructions is some of the stuff we throw away as soon as we upack everything. afro
Logged

Kirk-o
Queen Bee
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1059


Location: Los Angeles california


« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2006, 01:40:17 PM »

I realized a while ago that I didn't want my Beekeeping to be like everything else in my life.I usually have troble with my bees and beekeeping when I'm in a hurray.So I take my time know especially with the bees and it has removed my frustration.When I'm not working my bees I'm reading MICHEAL BUSH'S web page .The better I understand the better it takes ENJOY YOUR BEEKEEPING ACTIVITY
kiro
Logged

"It's not about Honey it's not about Money It's about SURVIVAL" Charles Martin Simmon
Finsky
Super Bee
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2791


Location: Finland


« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2006, 01:56:35 PM »

Directions??? What directions? I never have seen directions for putting frames together.

Same with me. But it very funny that people do same work with very different way

Eyelets
Clue - not clue
nail, when and how much
how to tighten wires
how many wires 2, 3, 4, none
how to put wax
wax without lower gap, ow with 10 mm gap
how to embed wire inside wax

hit together in mount or with fingers
tighten wire with apparatus or with fingers

And perhaps many more

 
Logged
beemaster
Site Founder
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6221


Location: Manchester, NJ

It is my pleasure to bring the forums to you.


WWW
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2006, 01:57:01 PM »

I guess the makers of frame parts assume us beekeepers would use directions for smoker fuel - I've never seen them packed with parts either.
Logged

NJBeemaster my YOUTUBE Video Collection
Follow us on TWITTER
SKYPE NJBeemaster - include your FORUM NAME in contact request
My Personal FACEBOOK Page


"All donations to our forums are greatly appreciated"
Please click HERE to help support our forum.
Paraplegic Racehorse
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 146

Location: Richland, Benton County, Washington State

Kilted beekeepers unite!


WWW
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2007, 01:26:09 AM »

Just got my order of woodenware from Western Bee (shipping to Alaska is hideously expensive!!!). The boxes are going together pretty smoothly - I've only broken one out of 15 so far. However, the frames, I can see are going to drive me batty.

Here's the situation: I have 600 frames to assemble, this season. I'm going foundationless, so I'm not worried about embedding and all that nonsense. The woodenware did not come with nails or instructions. Advice on assembly I have been able to find suggest A) nail across the frame through the side-bars instead of down/up through top/bottom bars and B) use a frame assembly jig.

Crux of problem: What size nails to use and how do I find them in the quantities I'll need? My local hardware store has bulk nails in narrow-and-long or fat-and-short but not narrow-and-short. Also, how do I sideways nail the frames with a jig (that I will have to construct because I refuse to pay for such a thing). It appears they are designed to nail the frames from top/bottom down/up, but this is entirely contrary to popular advice.

Argh! I am confused.
Logged

I'm Paraplegic Racehorse.
Member in good standing: International Discordance of Kilted Apiarists, Local #994

The World Beehive Project - I endeavor to build at least one of every beehive in common use today and document the entire process.
ChickenWing
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 61


Location: Temperance, Michigan 41°48' N. Lat.


« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2007, 02:40:46 AM »

Just got my order of woodenware from Western Bee (shipping to Alaska is hideously expensive!!!). The boxes are going together pretty smoothly - I've only broken one out of 15 so far. However, the frames, I can see are going to drive me batty.

Here's the situation: I have 600 frames to assemble, this season. I'm going foundationless, so I'm not worried about embedding and all that nonsense. The woodenware did not come with nails or instructions. Advice on assembly I have been able to find suggest A) nail across the frame through the side-bars instead of down/up through top/bottom bars and B) use a frame assembly jig.

Crux of problem: What size nails to use and how do I find them in the quantities I'll need? My local hardware store has bulk nails in narrow-and-long or fat-and-short but not narrow-and-short. Also, how do I sideways nail the frames with a jig (that I will have to construct because I refuse to pay for such a thing). It appears they are designed to nail the frames from top/bottom down/up, but this is entirely contrary to popular advice.

Argh! I am confused.

Here is what I do....  I have made my own assembly jig.  Just look at the links given earlier for a plan.  It helps alot.   

When I am building them in the jig, first of all I glue everything.  Then, I put the first nail down through the top bar or bottom bar, like you said, this is easily done in the jig.  This will hold everything together.   Then when I take them out of the jig, I shoot one more nail at each corner, from the side bar into the top bar, and bottom bar.  So to answer your question, nail both up/down, and sideways.   

As far as nails, with that many to make, I would invest in a nailer.  If you don't have an air compressor, another alternative is an electric brad nailer.   I have an Arrow ET200.  It costs about $60 dollars, and works great.  There are other less expensive ones also, but I'm not sure how well they work.   Anyway, with this type of nailer, you buy packs of brad nails that are designed to load into them.   I use 18 guage, and 1'' long for frames.    It works like the air nailers, just aim, hold it firmly against the wood, and pull the trigger. 

If you want to nail by hand, you should ask the hardware store for "wire brads".  These are the short and narrow nails you are looking for.    8 per frame x 600 frames = 4800 nails.   Hmmm, I would definately get the nailer if you can swing it.   LOL   
Logged
jimmyo
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 161


Location: Indiana, USA


« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2007, 07:24:24 AM »

I soak the ends of my frames in water so they don's split when I nail them.  I use Gorilla Glue. I put the glue on the bars and the ends are already wet because I'm soaking them in water. 
 If you look around you can find a brad pusher. It allows you to shove a brad by hand exactly where you want it.  They cost about five bucks.  sometimes you still have to tap them in with the hammer but the hard part is done by then.
 jim
Logged
Robo
Technical
Administrator
Galactic Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 6391


Location: Scenic Catskill Mountains - NY

Beekeep On!


WWW
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2007, 07:25:04 AM »

A) nail across the frame through the side-bars instead of down/up through top/bottom bars


The cross nail should be in addition to the nails going down thru the top bar

Quote
B) use a frame assembly jig.


I have built both types and find Ross's to be easier to build and less complicated to use then the door spring version.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/

Quote
Crux of problem: What size nails to use and how do I find them in the quantities I'll need?


If your building that many frames, go with an air stapler, I regret I did not switch earlier.

I've put a ton of frames together with one of these.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40116

If you still want to hand nail,  check out the bee catalogs,  they sell nails and tell you what size to use for what.

Quote
Also, how do I sideways nail the frames with a jig. It appears they are designed to nail the frames from top/bottom down/up, but this is entirely contrary to popular advice.


The cross nail is in addition to the up/down nails and is put in after the glue has dried and the frames are removed from the jig.
Logged

"Opportunity is missed by most people because it comes dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison


Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13563


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2007, 09:48:57 AM »

If I had 600 frames to put together I'd buy a 1/4" crown stapler and a jig.  Both are available from Walter T. Kelley, but considering shipping you might want to find them local.  These take a compressor (which everyone needs anyway for tires).  You can get by with a brad nailer, but with the 1/4" crown stapler you can use 1 1/2" staples for boxes and 1" staples for frames.  It's also nice to have some 5/8" staples for thin material where you don't want the staples coming through and 1 1/4" staples for when you want to nail two 3/4" boards without the staple coming through.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
Mklangelo
House Bee
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 403


Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin - USA (42° 57' N 87° 54' W)


« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2007, 10:43:40 AM »

I put all my frames together on my Kitchen table...  Of the 120 of them I assembled, I broke only one.  I did it with a Framing hammer too...   (for those that don't know what that is, Carpenters use it for rough work, it's big, long and heavy)  Next year I'll invest in a jig and a smaller hammer... It did work just fine for the boxes though.

I'm sort of a clumsy person at times so if I can do it, you can too!

OMG I'm reading these instructions and I used 8 nails in each frame.  Two at each end of the top bar into the side bars and two at each end of the bottom bar into the side bar (going straight up). And of course I used Titebond II Premium weather proof wood glue on the joint of the top bar and side bar.
 I didn't do any cross nailing.  Are my frames going to fall apart when their full of honey and comb?


Logged


<img src="[url]http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/miniStates_both/language/www/US/WI/Milwaukee.gif
" border=0
alt="Click for Milwaukee, Wisconsin Forecast" height=100 width=150>[/url]

If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside.
  - Robert X. Cringely
Michael Bush
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 13563


Location: Nehawka, NE


WWW
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2007, 01:57:19 PM »

The glue will hold more than the nails.  If you glued them, they should hold together fine.
Logged

Michael Bush
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--Rick Nielsen
kathyp
Universal Bee
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 15026


Location: boring, oregon


« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2007, 02:58:02 PM »

compressor and some kind of nailer or stapler.  i have two.  the kind that MB likes and a stapler.  have used both.  don't know which i like best yet.  one for each hand?   evil

they are fun...and no one bugs you while you use it!  smiley
Logged

.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

 Alexis de Tocqueville
Bubba
New Bee
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 14

Location: Maplesville, Alabama


« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2007, 04:24:34 PM »

A 1/4 in crown stapler is great! The only problem that I have had is that some of the end bars waunt to splinter. Just take them and soak them in water for 10 min before starting to work with them then pull them out and set them in a handy place. This also aids in the moisture that is needed for the resin glue's to set up. ex (elmers ultimate and Gorilla glue)
Logged
Brian D. Bray
Galactic Bee
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 7369


Location: Anacortes, WA 98221

I really look like this, just ask Cindi.


WWW
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2007, 10:36:50 PM »

I nail 1 down into the end piece from the top bar.  Then I nail 2 into the end of the top bar from the end piece.  I've never used glue and have been building frames since 1959.  They don't pull apart and most parts can be salvaged when some frames eventually break--oops.
Logged

Life is a school.  What have you learned?   Brian      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!
Ross
Field Bee
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 512

Location: Greenville, TX


WWW
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2007, 03:55:04 PM »

simple frame jig...
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/framejig1.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/framejig2.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/framejig/framejig3.jpg

Stock both ends with endbars, add glue, insert top bars and nail, flip over, add glue, insert bottom bars and nail.
Pull out the two slides, dump them out, and repeat as needed.
Logged

www.myoldtools.com
Those who don't read good books have no advantage over those who can't---Mark Twain
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Beemaster's Beekeeping Ring
Previous | Home | Join | Random | Next
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Sitemap Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 1.567 seconds with 21 queries.

Google visited last this page July 20, 2014, 06:41:56 PM
anything