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Author Topic: residential beehive placement  (Read 6905 times)
ndvan
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« on: November 02, 2006, 09:26:45 AM »

I am a newbie considering getting 2 hives for my city lot, which is 1/4 acre.  I have two possible locations. 

One is up against my house,  in a flower bed that runs the length of my house.  This flowerbed runs between the house and my own driveway, which also runs the length of the house.  The hive would face my neighbor's yard,which is about 30 feet away.  The yards are separated by a 4 foot wire fence and hedges, with some gaps in the hedges.  The problem with this spot is that the hives will be more visible and we walk up and down the driveway, which would place us right in front of the hives.  Also, there would be no fence between my hive and the road, so a person could walk from the road right up to the hive.  The road would be about 50 feet away.  However, the view of the hive from the road will be blocked by shrubs that are planted in the flowerbed between the hive location and the road.  The hive would be visible from the neighbor's yard through the shrubs that separate the yards.  This particular neighbor does not even live in the house right now, but I do not think the house will be vacant forever.

The other is in the back corner of my yard, which is a side yard area (my house sits on 1.5 lots.  My house occupies one lot and the .5 lot is a driveway and the side yard).  If I use this spot, the bees will basically be in a box.  Three sides will be six foot privacy fence.  The fourth side will be solid hedges (5 feet high) and a chain link fence gate (four feet high).   The hive openings would face the hedges and the road.  This would be at the back of my yard, and the road is about 130' away.  They would face away from my back neighbor's yard.  They would be parallell to the side neighbor's yard, about 15 feet from that property line (and there would be a 6' fence between the hive and both of those neighbors).  The dimensions of this box would be about 25' by 13'. 

The problem with this spot is that 2 sides of this box (which both have 6 foot privacy fence) would be right on the property lines with 2 different neighbors and near the corner of the property with another neighbor.  However, there is nothing in the adjoining areas of the neighboring yards.  This is also the back corner of all of the other yards.  In fact, the yard behind me has two buildings right up to the property line and there is only about two feet of yard between their fence and the buildings.  If bees fly that way, they will be flying over two buildings.  Also, the hives will not be visible to anyone and will be totally fenced in.  The question is whether the bees will bother neighbors when: the neighbors cannot see the hives, there are solid, tall fences separating the hives from the other yards, the hives do not face the other property owners, the hives are within 5 feet of the property lines near low use or unused areas of the neighbors' yards. 

I have asked about mowing in another post, and people indicated that mowing does not bother bees too much.  However, is it possible that neighbors mowing on the other side of a privacy fence could get bees on the other side riled up.

I do not have much contact with any of these neighbors.  The people behind me live on another block and I do not really know them.  The guy next door is not even living there, although we get along fine when he is around (even though he is letting his house fall apart and does not keep up his yard).

In both locations, the bees would get direct sun from about 9 am to 2 am and filtered light during other parts of the day and shade in late afternoon/evening.  They will also be shielded from north winds.

Or do I need to find somebody just outside of town who will let me use his or her property to keep bees?  In your experience, is it difficult to do that?

I hope you can follow those descriptions.  Please let me know if this is too confusing.  Maybe I need to borrow a digital camera.

Thanks,

ndvan
 
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Trot
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2006, 06:46:43 PM »

It is hard giving advice to people in different localities. Laws and such differ much from one town to the other.
Rule of tum is: "Out of sight - out of mind!"
I would put them in location #2. Mowing grass might rile them up if they are AHB. Nice bees get a bit upset if the discharge chute hits their entrance...
Ndvan, you might be OK ?!  If not, you can always move them some place with more privacy.

Regards,
Frank
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2006, 08:12:05 PM »

I have bees in town and have for decades.  I try to keep them back from property lines and I but them close to and face them towards a building.  This seems to get them up in the air more quickly so they are over peoples heads.  A six foot fence will do as well, but costs more.  Try to keep water out so they don't start using the neighors bird baths, hot tubs, and swimming pools.
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ndvan
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2006, 10:24:05 PM »

Thanks for the input.

I am not going to have any AHBs.  If my bees are anything but gentle, I will requeen ASAP.
I also will get a gentle strain, probably Italians from a breeder that assures that the bees have been bred for gentleness.  I will steer clear of local bees.  I will requeen every year with purchased queens so that there's no real chance of getting an AHB bred queen and to hold down on swarming.  (As of right now AHBs have not been found in my county but they have been found about 100 miles south of here and I'm assuming they're coming or already here somewhere).  Yearly requeening is and expense I'm just counting on.  I also will keep water right near the hive, maybe in a few spots in the yard.

Here are some more questions:

If I put the bees on one side of a privacy fence, they should not get hit by exhaust from the neighbor's lawnmower.  Will the noise of a mower, standing alone, get a hive rattled?  If so, will they go over a privacy fence and get somebody? 

If I put the bees in location no. 1 (near driveway) facing the house, how high are the bees likely to be by the time they get to the driveway, which is only about 5 feet from the house?
Are they going to then be face height right at the driveway?  I actually think that putting them there facing the house may be the best idea if they will just fly up.  Also, we do not really walk up and down the drive that much.  The driveway is long and we can park either in front or behind the hives.  We can also go into the house from either the back or front and avoid walking in front of the hives altogether. 

If I put the bees near a 6 foot fence, will they stay over six feet high when they get to the neighbor's yards (assuming they are not going to some food or water source in the neighbor's yard)?   When bees are cruising around do they vary altitude alot, or do they mostly get to a cruising altitude and stay there until they have a real reason to go down?

Also, for anybody who's got input, I know that best anybody can do is give general opinions based on their own experience.  I'm not going to get mad at or blame anybody if I follow some advice and a neighbor gets mad, I get a ticket or some other ugly situation develops.  Ultimately, I'm the one doing this and I alone am responsible.  I'm just trying to get a feel for what people do and what works so I make the smartest decisions, which might be to not have a hive in my yard at all.  I repeatedly hear that "I keep bees in the city with no problems," but I would like more specifics about how people do this and what works for them, like where are the bees in relation to neighbors, how far hives should be from areas frequently used by people and what effects barriers like fences will have on keeping my family and neighbors safe and happy. 

Thanks again, and I really enjoy this site.

ndvan
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2006, 06:20:25 AM »

>If my bees are anything but gentle, I will requeen ASAP.

You may also need to split the hive.  Smaller hives are noticably less defensive.

>I also will get a gentle strain, probably Italians from a breeder that assures that the bees have been bred for gentleness.

But even they go psycho sometimes and need to be requeened.

>  I will steer clear of local bees.

I raise NOTHING but local bees.  I have no problems with hot bees now.  I had more problems when I was buying commercial queens.

>  I will requeen every year with purchased queens so that there's no real chance of getting an AHB bred queen and to hold down on swarming.

I only requeen if I see a problem.

>  I also will keep water right near the hive, maybe in a few spots in the yard.

It's not so important that it's right by the hive as that it's reliable.  Bees are very loyal to a reliable source of water.  More so than a convenient source of water.

>If I put the bees on one side of a privacy fence, they should not get hit by exhaust from the neighbor's lawnmower.  Will the noise of a mower, standing alone, get a hive rattled?

It certainly might.  Which is why I would not put them close enough to the property line that it's an issue.

>  If so, will they go over a privacy fence and get somebody?

or through it.

>If I put the bees in location no. 1 (near driveway) facing the house, how high are the bees likely to be by the time they get to the driveway, which is only about 5 feet from the house?

It depends on how high they have to get to get to the nectar source.  Mine in my side yard like to fly down the road and they never get any height if they are flying to a field down the road.  If they are flying to something on the other side of the neighbor's woods they go straight up and then leave.

> I actually think that putting them there facing the house may be the best idea if they will just fly up.

And the "defensive" zone is just the space between the entrance and the wall.

>If I put the bees near a 6 foot fence, will they stay over six feet high when they get to the neighbor's yards (assuming they are not going to some food or water source in the neighbor's yard)?

Yes.  Once they get their height they maintain it until they get to their destination.

>   When bees are cruising around do they vary altitude alot, or do they mostly get to a cruising altitude and stay there until they have a real reason to go down?

The latter.

>I repeatedly hear that "I keep bees in the city with no problems," but I would like more specifics about how people do this and what works for them, like where are the bees in relation to neighbors, how far hives should be from areas frequently used by people and what effects barriers like fences will have on keeping my family and neighbors safe and happy.

The big things are to not put them close enough to a property line that a neighbor will face a reaction by the bees.  That distance is only a few feet if it's the back of the hive or a few yards if it's the front of the hive.  Bees vary greatly.  A very nice hive can quickly turn mean because it's queenless or it just hit some critical mass of bees that they decide to or a dearth hits suddenly and they are trying not to get robbed.  But generally with calm bees you can walk right in front of a hive with no response from the bees.  What you are planning on, though, is to make sure IF they get testy the neighbors are never the ones to notice this.  You are.  And you can then take the necessary steps to resolve the issue.

Some people advocate openess with the neighbors.  I don't.  Unless they've been around bees, they can't comprehend what you are telling them when you say you're going to put some beehives in your yard.  They think suddenly there will be thousands of bees in their face and they won't be able to go outside anymore.  Better for them, one day, to notice you're working them and find out they've already been there for a year.  Then they are faced with the reality that they never even noticed.
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Michael Bush
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Trot
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2006, 11:27:47 AM »

Well, out of sight out of mind, is the best one can do!?
In my 52 years of keeping bees I have seen/heard of a good number of stories...

Two of my own:
In 1986 I had to close down my best bee yard. It was out on a raspberry farm, miles from human congestion.
One year a "gentleman farmer" build himself a house on a neighbouring land and fenced it in for a few horses that he kept as pets.
From that day on he was jumping on me, every time he saw me driving to my yard. Apparently my bees ware stinging his horses, under the belly. It got so hot that he was threatening to shoot me, if I don't get the bees of his horses!

Other was empty supers that I would unload of my bee-truck, before I went to work on my regular job in the mine.
It too got so bad, that the cops threatened me with jail time, if I did not remove them boxes.

You see, the fact that they were empty, did not matter!
Somebody saw them and they kept phoning the police station and demanded that the bees removed. Even help from our apiary inspector did no good! They won...

Regards,
Frank
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ndvan
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2006, 12:33:05 PM »

A local beekeeper told a similar story.  A person in a nearby town decided to get a hive and put the hive together in winter, with the plan to stock the bees in the spring.  He put the empty hive in his yard in plain sight. A neighbor called the city claiming to have been stung by the imaginary bees.  The person could not be persuaded that this was not a problem, and the hive owner got into a legal fight with the city over keeping bees that led to a $2,500 bill for legal fees. 

My main concern is that my conduct, in reality, not hurt or harass my family or  neighbors.  However, it is just as important that I not have people get all wound up for no reason.  This will be no fun if even if the neighbors have IMAGINARY problems and complain. 

Despite the out-of-sight, out-of-mind concept, I am still leaning towards putting the bees next to my house next to my house, facing my house, in the side yard.  Prior to these posts, I never thought about facing the hive to the house.  If I do that, how much space needs to be left between the house and the front of the hive?   

In that location, the hives would be visible, but only from my next door neighbor's yard and then only through a few holes in the shrubs.  The main thing is that guy does not even live there.  Also, he kept a large dumpster in his yard for about 1.5 years, let his yard grow up with brush, let his wood fences rot till they literally fell over and had a bunch of trash in his backyard when the fences fell.  I never once complained, because I think he has other issues that were causing the problem.  He since cleaned up the yard somewhat, but I have not seen him in months.  He also has no kids and does not go into the yard much.  Bottom line, I don't think he will realize I have bees, will not care and would not be in a position to gripe too much about anything. 

I have also considered building a little, removable picket or lattice fence to go at the edge of the flowerbed and further obscure the hives.

The only problem is that when I work the hives, which is when the bees actually will be upset, I will be wearing a veil and there will be no way to really hide what I am doing.   

However, I ran this by my wife, and she is worried that bee swarms will bother her when she gets out of the car.  We park in the driveway, but we could park about 15' in front of or in back of the hives and avoid walking right in front.  Based on experience, when there is a nectar flow, will there really be so many bees flying that we will be bothered 15 ft from the hive, even with the hives facing the house?  From what little I have seen, bees don't get too upset about what's going on behind the hive.  Is that really the case?

I have inspected one beeyard and helped the owner (who is teaching the beekeeping class) to feed his bees.  Those bees were calm as can be, and there were not so many bees flying that it would bother anybody.   However, we were just feeding and it was only about 70 degrees and not many flowers in bloom.  I just don't have a good feel for what a hive is like when the bees are getting after it or invasive work is taking place.

I suppose I could just do this and move the hives someplace else if the neighbors go nuts. 

Thanks for the very, very helpful input, and I would still appreciate anybody's thoughts.

Ndvan
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kathyp
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2006, 01:17:54 PM »

trot....your gentleman farmer didn't know the difference between a horse bot and a honey bee. that's pretty funny, but to bad for you.  my horses pasture right next to my hive and have no problem. 
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2006, 02:11:38 PM »

I too vote for location #2.  I don't think that they will bother anything that they can't see, ie on the other side of the hedge or privacy fence.

I have ~1/2 acre lot in the 'burbs, I put my hives in the back, with fir trees to the back, a partial hedge to the side, and the bees pointed into my "orchard".  They usually fly out at an upward angle for 10-20 feet, then go straight up and out.

My neighbor drives his slow riding mower  just on the other side of the hedge from the back of one, and about 20 feet from the side of another not protected from the hedge, and I haven't heard any complaints.  Last year I was all suited up and doing a split, and the bees weren't happy and doing some bouncing, and here comes the neighbor, slowly mowing about 10 feet away.  I was petrified that they would go after him, but apparently he didn't register as the enemy so he was fine.  They were too focused on trying to kill me.

I've only had one of the neighbors get stung in about 3 years, but they are freindly and only asked what they should do about the sting.

I'm more worried about swarms.  That will scare neighbors more than anything.

-rick
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2006, 02:51:11 PM »

if your neighbors have gardens, they probably already have bees in them.  i live out in the country, but i do have one neighbor within walking distance.  she was commenting on how good her garden had been this year, and how she'd seen more bees.  i told her i was keeping some and she thought that was great.  wanted to buy honey...etc. 

if your neighbors don't actually see your hive, the only thing they'll notice is better blooms and better gardens.  you can keep your secret Smiley.

as for mowing, i ran my tractor and weed whacker around my hive this year and they didn't seem to notice.  my cats sit ON the front of the hive and swat at the bees, and near as i can tell, they don't get stung.  my horses are in the pasture next to the bees and are not bothered. 

maybe i have been lucky and just had really nice bees, but i'll take honey bees (even angry honey bees) over yellowjackets and wasps any day!
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.....The greatest changes occur in their country without their cooperation. They are not even aware of precisely what has taken place. They suspect it; they have heard of the event by chance. More than that, they are unconcerned with the fortunes of their village, the safety of their streets, the fate of their church and its vestry. They think that such things have nothing to do with them, that they belong to a powerful stranger called “the government.” They enjoy these goods as tenants, without a sense of ownership, and never give a thought to how they might be improved.....

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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2006, 04:04:57 PM »

I'm like MB.  Started with hives in the yard a very long time ago, and currently have 5 back there.  I have another 11 in other peoples residential yards.  I mainly place them so they are not visible from the street, and the primary flight path doesn't cross a primary people path.  If they are easily seen, it goes from "there sure seem to be alot of bees this year" to "that idiot neighbor has millions of those stinging insects in his yard and I want them moved"  Don't count on a mower or weed whacker NOT bothering them.  I've mowed a thousand times, and not been stung.  I've also been sitting on a boat hull, not mowing, and been zinged.  Why??  I guess they didn't like my shirt.  Don't work them when neighbors are active in their yards, Don't leave wax and honey or syrup around to get them unruly and robbing.  As MB points out, any hive can get out of hand under the right circumstances.  Once excited, anything moving can become fair game.  I have a detached garage, and my colonys used to be lined up along the driveway.  6 foot fence behind them, garage east, house south and west.  That 20 feet of open space is a heavy traffic area, and 99 days out of 100, no stings.  The day the wind blows out of the south, or the bees are rioting because I've done something stupid, getting to the garage can be like walking a gauntlet.  Unfortunately, people are not as close to the earth as they used to be.  You will likely find older people much more accepting of your bees.
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Michael Bush
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2006, 08:33:47 PM »

> If I do that, how much space needs to be left between the house and the front of the hive?   

Six inches will do.  I wouldn't do more than a couple of feet.

>Also, he kept a large dumpster in his yard for about 1.5 years, let his yard grow up with brush, let his wood fences rot till they literally fell over and had a bunch of trash in his backyard when the fences fell.

It doesn't sound like the kind of person who would complain.  If they did they'd be foolish since you could complain.

>I have also considered building a little, removable picket or lattice fence to go at the edge of the flowerbed and further obscure the hives.

I wouldn't hurt.  I've never bothered.

>The only problem is that when I work the hives, which is when the bees actually will be upset, I will be wearing a veil and there will be no way to really hide what I am doing.   

True.  Sooner or later the neighbors will notice.  Better later than sooner.

>However, I ran this by my wife, and she is worried that bee swarms will bother her when she gets out of the car.

Swarms are hives reproducing.  But I assume you are talking either of traffic (which a six foot fence would put over her head) or defensive behavior, which is not impossible but unlikely if the entrance is facing the other way.

>  We park in the driveway, but we could park about 15' in front of or in back of the hives and avoid walking right in front.  Based on experience, when there is a nectar flow, will there really be so many bees flying that we will be bothered 15 ft from the hive, even with the hives facing the house?

Probably not.

> From what little I have seen, bees don't get too upset about what's going on behind the hive.  Is that really the case?

That is usually the case.  A very hot hive will care, but a normal hive will not.

>I have inspected one beeyard and helped the owner (who is teaching the beekeeping class) to feed his bees.  Those bees were calm as can be, and there were not so many bees flying that it would bother anybody.

Which is what you want to maintain.

>  However, we were just feeding and it was only about 70 degrees and not many flowers in bloom.

Actually when nothing is blooming is when they are in the foulest mood.  When a lot is blooming they are usually the nicest.

> I just don't have a good feel for what a hive is like when the bees are getting after it or invasive work is taking place.

Any hive can get defensive, especially in a dearth or in cloudy or rainy weather.

>I suppose I could just do this and move the hives someplace else if the neighbors go nuts.

That's a plan.

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Michael Bush
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« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2006, 06:36:16 PM »

The biggest draw back I've ever encountered with bees in the city was when I was still a police officer.  A group of neighbor kids thought it would be fun to throw rocks at the hives which made them hot for me to work.  Catching them in the act I marched them over to their parents and advised that they and their children would be cited into municipal court if the rock throwing didn't stop. 
I advised the parents they were legally responsible for the actions of their children and they all could be charged with 2nd degree assualt as a result of malicious mischief for making the bees so mad from throwing rocks that they stung somebody, including them.  They could be charged every time it happened--somebody was stung, even once.
Like the story with the horse bots, a like of the right kind of knowledge can go a long way toward defusing a problem. 
Horse bots (which back on the farm we called horse flies) look a lot like a bee at first glance but are slightly larger and flatter in stance.  They will chase horses (and cows) in swarms with a special affinity towards the under parts of a horse (the belly) and the fetlocks.  If the beekeeper had known that information he could have nutralized the "gentalman farmer's" arguments.
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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2006, 08:54:51 PM »

That one, "horse bots," had me stumped...
We too had called them "horse flies!" Still do.
Sometimes it seems that no matter what the beek knows -
has no, or little bearing on the outcome?! Especially when fear is combined with ignorance!

"Gentleman Farmer" had a well padded wallet, was a school principal and a "part timer" at city hall...
Our bee inspector, (a friend of mine) had no luck with this fella either. On about
half dozen inspections, of his horses by the Agripeople and police, they never found one bee near - much less - on his horses...
Brian, you must have herd this one: "It's not what you know - but who you know. . ?"

But what frightens me is:  That was 20 years ago! But today, I find, that people know even less about bees as they did than.  .  .  .


Regards,
Frank


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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2006, 09:33:01 PM »

Frank,

Around here we say: "it's not who know..it's who you bl--.  (rhymes with know).

Unfortunately, once the pseudo-hysteria starts it's usually the beekeepers/farmers who lose out. Like much of rural America, we are slowly being invaded by that uniquely offensive form of life known as the "suburban farmer" - suburbanites who move to the country and know more than anyone else. They are never wrong on any issue and God help the poor soul who keeps bees, raises pigs, shoots guns, etc, who has one of these people buy property next door. We have newcomers around here who, I swear, would go hire a lawyer if you farted upwind of their property. Best to keep a low profile if you can.
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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2006, 12:15:50 AM »

My father-in-law used to say "It;s not what you know. it's who you know..," which is true in politics not a court of law or public opinion.  A little knowledge used correctly can defeat ignorance and politics every time.  However, it can get a little chilly standing against the prevailing winds of money and influence but it can still be done.  Must be my stubburn Scotch/Irish heritage. I've done it enough to know. 
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